Bombers scandal: charged, <redacted> and <infracted>

[old dee 24,075]

  On 03/01/2014 at 08:55, monoccular said:

A professional colleague often says "do you want the right answer, or the quick answer?"

Nothing more than a statement of the facts Monoccular

[Wolfmother 182]

  On 03/01/2014 at 09:20, bing181 said:

Believe as you want, but ASADA don't do deals - except under specific conditions outlined in the WADA code. These mainly centre on coming forward with information, which doesn't seem to be the case here.

If they find that x players have committed infringements, then x players will receive infringement notices.

That comment might have been poorly worded by myself...

What I meant was there is always two ways to look at evidence and sometimes people come to different conclusions, hey, that's what lawyers get paid to do but plenty of decisions in the court of appeals, high court etc can be decided 2-1 or 4-3 so some of our best legal minds have different opinions on the same facts

I can't see how ASADA couldn't go for 38 players with the consent forms but they know that will be a super hard fight with everything thrown at them. They might choose to pick the lowest hanging fruit so to speak rather than try chopping down the whole tree and the people that make these decisions aren't so much the investigators rather higher up the chain and it cn involve multiple influences

[Whispering_Jack 31,361]

You can run and even hide but they'll get you in the end - Olympic cyclist Stuart O'Grady reveals why he confessed to doping.

[bing181 9,458]

  On 03/01/2014 at 19:52, Whispering_Jack said:

You can run and even hide but they'll get you in the end - Olympic cyclist Stuart O'Grady reveals why he confessed to doping.

Perhaps, but this was retrospective testing of products for which tests had been subsequently developed. The samples were taken during the 1998 TDF and stored, the test for EPO was put in place for the 2000 Olympics. Not sure that there's a fridge full of Essendon players' samples, just waiting for tests for AOD 9604 and Thymosin Beta 4 to be developed? If it's about testing, I'd imagine they'd be safe with their secrets, unlike O'Grady.

FWIW, O'Grady couldn't have been charged in any case, as the 8-year statute of limitations had expired. Similar to the Ryder Hesjedal situation. Also interesting is that though the French enquiry confirmed that Pantani and Ulrich both used EPO in the 1998 tour, their first and second places still stand. Watson to keep his Brownlow whatever happens?

[Whispering_Jack 31,361]

To that I would say that we don't know the limits of forensic testing and scientific development. Who is to say that in two years' time, it won't be possible to detect years' old traces of substances in a person's blood, hair or on the skin. Do we know what's done with the results of random testing carried out at present? Then there's the fact that more and more dope cheats are being caught through investigation rather than testing and in the specific case of the current situation in the AFL and NFL, I suspect that there will be final reports on the investigations by at least the anniversary of the darkest day announcements of last year.

[rjay 25,419]

  On 03/01/2014 at 19:52, Whispering_Jack said:

You can run and even hide but they'll get you in the end - Olympic cyclist Stuart O'Grady reveals why he confessed to doping.

A one off????

[Wolfmother 182]

He only outed himself because he thought he was going to be named and for no other reason... I don't Know why but for some reason i dont believe that the only time in his career he ever used was the time that they have gone back and checked. I call BS

[rjay 25,419]

  On 04/01/2014 at 01:11, Wolfmother said:

He only outed himself because he thought he was going to be named and for no other reason... I don't Know why but for some reason i dont believe that the only time in his career he ever used was the time that they have gone back and checked. I call BS

He says, "I wasn’t trying to deceive people. I was basically trying to survive in what was a very grey area."

Only trying to survive in one race? or the sport? it seems he survived pretty well.

Drug free? Hard to believe.

[Bossdog 2,002]

By the time this has finally resolved.....All of the players in question will have retired and the infraction notices will no longer matter.....

[Whispering_Jack 31,361]

Thanks to Richard Ings, here's how O'Grady was thinking in 2012 - Stuart O'Grady shocked by Lance Armstrong scandal

  Quote

Speaking to The Advertiser from his Luxembourg home this week, Australian cycling's elder statesman said he had never even considered doping in his career.

"It's never been a thought, never been an option," he said.

Never.

Right.

[Whispering_Jack 31,361]

Another side-effect of the Essendon drugs scandal:

Essendon drug use sparks copycat rush

I wonder if this is the first salvo of the Fairfax return of fire aimed at News Limited and Hird after the Chip Le Grand articles?

[Flying Cloud 152]

  On 05/01/2014 at 21:30, Whispering_Jack said:

Another side-effect of the Essendon drugs scandal:

Essendon drug use sparks copycat rush

I wonder if this is the first salvo of the Fairfax return of fire aimed at News Limited and Hird after the Chip Le Grand articles?

This....

"Professor Smith said athletes who used steroids in the 1960s and 1970s were now dying in disproportionate numbers."

Whoever is to blame for what happened at Essendon should go down big time.

[Return to Glory 8,518]

  On 03/01/2014 at 08:58, Cards13 said:

Details RTG or just a guess?

Absolute guess Cards, but based on the inaction of the past 6 months. I certainly want to be wrong but as I mentioned earlier there is a feel that they are being protected.

[Redleg 42,131]

  On 06/01/2014 at 05:38, Flying Cloud said:

This....

Professor Smith said athletes who used steroids in the 1960s and 1970s were now dying in disproportionate numbers."

Forget infraction notices, this if true is very concerning.

[rjay 25,419]

  On 06/01/2014 at 06:26, Redleg said:

Forget infraction notices, this if true is very concerning.

Very, it's always been the main issue although we do get sidetracked by the ancillary issues of the lying and cheating that go with it. Not to mention our attitude to the EFC.

[binman 44,788]

  On 06/01/2014 at 06:49, rjay said:

Very, it's always been the main issue although we do get sidetracked by the ancillary issues of the lying and cheating that go with it. Not to mention our attitude to the EFC.

Spot on rjay, could not agree more. EFC have from the beginning tried to make this all about the legality of the drugs used to muddy the waters on the real issue - the potential health impact on players. At the end of the day that is by far the most important thing. And it makes no sense how confident they are about no negative health outcomes if they cannot say with 100% certainty (ie with appropriate records) what they gave players, in what combinations and in what quantities.

[Cards13 9,117]

  On 06/01/2014 at 05:38, Flying Cloud said:

This....

"Professor Smith said athletes who used steroids in the 1960s and 1970s were now dying in disproportionate numbers."

Whoever is to blame for what happened at Essendon should go down big time.

Just look at the WWF guys from the 80's and 90's as an example of rampant steroid use and the negative out comes.

[Dees2014 2,377]

  On 06/01/2014 at 05:51, Return to Glory said:

Absolute guess Cards, but based on the inaction of the past 6 months. I certainly want to be wrong but as I mentioned earlier there is a feel that they are being protected.

They are not being protected. ASADA/WADA will get them in the end. These investigations always take time and this one is particularly complex. As Bing said, ASADA/WADA don't do deals, but they do work at their own pace and with limited resources. Those who see lack of an outcome as evidence of a conspiracy are barking up the wrong tree. All investigations of this type all over the world under the WADA banner are seen to be "too slow". Essendon will be hit eventually, but it may not even be this year.

On a related matter, I was talking with someone high up in the Essendon hierarchy today, and even they are acknowledging internally apparently that the infamous club doctor letter to James Hird (which for a time was lost) expressing his concerns about the peptide program WAS in fact received by Hird. Apparently he put it in his pocket and didn't share it with anyone, presumably because it was inconvenient to his program of doping. If true, this alone should be enough to convict him. It would also ensure he never coaches again at the elite level.

[Return to Glory 8,518]

  On 06/01/2014 at 19:16, Dees2014 said:

They are not being protected. ASADA/WADA will get them in the end. These investigations always take time and this one is particularly complex. As Bing said, ASADA/WADA don't do deals, but they do work at their own pace and with limited resources. Those who see lack of an outcome as evidence of a conspiracy are barking up the wrong tree. All investigations of this type all over the world under the WADA banner are seen to be "too slow". Essendon will be hit eventually, but it may not even be this year.

On a related matter, I was talking with someone high up in the Essendon hierarchy today, and even they are acknowledging internally apparently that the infamous club doctor letter to James Hird (which for a time was lost) expressing his concerns about the peptide program WAS in fact received by Hird. Apparently he put it in his pocket and didn't share it with anyone, presumably because it was inconvenient to his program of doping. If true, this alone should be enough to convict him. It would also ensure he never coaches again at the elite level.

I hope you are right. You can understand though, if there are those of us who remain doubtful.

[Crompton's the man 660]

  On 06/01/2014 at 10:02, Cards13 said:

Just look at the WWF guys from the 80's and 90's as an example of rampant steroid use and the negative out comes.

Not aware of this : are there examples or figures ?

[Cards13 9,117]

  On 07/01/2014 at 04:33, Crompton said:

Not aware of this : are there examples or figures ?

Now as the author does note and there are many varied reasons for the death rate on that list but the ages of some of these guys is ridiculously young and some are directly related to the use.

http://prowrestling.about.com/od/whatsrealwhatsfake/a/wrestlersdeaths.htm

Also this

http://prowrestling.about.com/b/2009/01/03/chairman-waxman-releases-letter-regarding-illegal-steroid-use-in-professional-wrestling.htm

[Dinosaur Rover 197]

  On 06/01/2014 at 19:16, Dees2014 said:

They are not being protected. ASADA/WADA will get them in the end. These investigations always take time and this one is particularly complex. As Bing said, ASADA/WADA don't do deals, but they do work at their own pace and with limited resources. Those who see lack of an outcome as evidence of a conspiracy are barking up the wrong tree. All investigations of this type all over the world under the WADA banner are seen to be "too slow". Essendon will be hit eventually, but it may not even be this year.

On a related matter, I was talking with someone high up in the Essendon hierarchy today, and even they are acknowledging internally apparently that the infamous club doctor letter to James Hird (which for a time was lost) expressing his concerns about the peptide program WAS in fact received by Hird. Apparently he put it in his pocket and didn't share it with anyone, presumably because it was inconvenient to his program of doping. If true, this alone should be enough to convict him. It would also ensure he never coaches again at the elite level.

The doctor concerned should have resigned as his letter wasnt properly responded to.

I know of an AFL club doctor who has resigned on the basis of this scandal because of the implications and conflicts of interest inherant in this field. On the one hand the ethical duties of medicos and on the other the presures of elite performance.

He observes that whereas with most commercial drugs testing is exhaustive and approvals evidence based with ethics approval of tests - only within the AFL can you test drugs without strong efficacy and safety evidence on athletes with no ethics approvals at all. Doctors operating in this environment are not maintaining their professional standards if they dont make a stand. The "I wrote a letter defence" doesnt stack up for mine.

[John Crow Batty 8,891]

  On 07/01/2014 at 05:25, Cards13 said:

Now as the author does note and there are many varied reasons for the death rate on that list but the ages of some of these guys is ridiculously young and some are directly related to the use.

http://prowrestling.about.com/od/whatsrealwhatsfake/a/wrestlersdeaths.htm

Also this

http://prowrestling.about.com/b/2009/01/03/chairman-waxman-releases-letter-regarding-illegal-steroid-use-in-professional-wrestling.htm

So many familiar names. There must be a big connection with drug abuse. My favourite Macho Man Savage died of an enlarged heart. He didn't even know he had a problem.

[Crompton's the man 660]

  On 07/01/2014 at 05:25, Cards13 said:

Now as the author does note and there are many varied reasons for the death rate on that list but the ages of some of these guys is ridiculously young and some are directly related to the use.

http://prowrestling.about.com/od/whatsrealwhatsfake/a/wrestlersdeaths.htm

Also this

http://prowrestling.about.com/b/2009/01/03/chairman-waxman-releases-letter-regarding-illegal-steroid-use-in-professional-wrestling.htm

Thanks for that - I'll read it with interest

[mjt 640]

  On 07/01/2014 at 05:56, america de cali said:

So many familiar names. There must be a big connection with drug abuse. My favourite Macho Man Savage died of an enlarged heart. He didn't even know he had a problem.

I thought the Macho man died in a car accident, I'm pretty sure Hulk Hogan took the fall for Vince McMahon in the 80s over steroid use in wrestling, most of the great wrestlers of the 70s and 80 s are deceased , look what happened to Chris Benoit.