The Trade/Draft Rumour Mill

[beelzebub 22,244]

BH...first rule of footy....get the ball. Lets do that first huh , just saying

[hayz 27]

I have wanted Aish and/or Sheed most of the year but the last few weeks has made me join the Nathan Freeman camp!

I'm still a fan of Sheed but I like the pace of Freeman and if the dangerfield comparisons are right we definitely need to get him!

If we can't get a deal done to get Shiel I will be very happy with Freeman!

[dazzledavey36 48,952]

Who are our abundance of outside mids? Who says he is outside only? Not saying he is the right choice but getting sick of this "you're either inside or outside" or skinny at 18 means you'll never win a contested ball. Just pick the best rounded mid and back to develop them accordingly.

We picked Morton as we thought the best Rounded mid. Skinny player who has struggled with the physical demands of AFL football. Very highly rated under 18 junior. AIS Academy, Larke Medalist, All Australian, Senior football experience at WAFL level, WA representative.

We picked Gysberts as the best rounded mid. Skinny player who has struggled with the physical demands of AFL footballer. Highly rated junior, AIS Academy, Vic Metro representative, TAC team of the year.

We picked Lucas Cook as the best round forward. Skinny player who struggled with the physical demands of AFL football. Highy rated AIS Academy, All Australian under 18 Center Half Forward, Vic Country representative.

Sam Blease was picked as a skinny midfielder. Has struggled also with physical demands of AFL with constant injuries and poor consistant form. Highly rated junior who was a AIS Academy and Vic Metro representative.

We picked Jack Watts who was a skinny forward that has struggled to bulk up and live up to his highly rated Junior career. Though I do reckon he will come good but not the big key forward everyone thought he would become. Highly rated AIS Academy, All Australian under 18, Larke Medalist,

Way too many skinny players who were all thought at the time as the best rounded available players.

Edited October 8, 2013 by dazzledavey36

[beelzebub 22,244]

We picked Morton as we thought the best Rounded mid. Skinny player who has struggled with the physical demands of AFL football. Very highly rated under 18 junior. AIS Academy, Larke Medalist, All Australian, Senior football experience at WAFL level, WA representative.

We picked Gysberts as the best rounded mid. Skinny player who has struggled with the physical demands of AFL footballer. Highly rated junior, AIS Academy, Vic Metro representative, TAC team of the year.

We picked Lucas Cook as the best round forward. Skinny player who struggled with the physical demands of AFL football. Highy rated AIS Academy, All Australian under 18 Center Half Forward, Vic Country representative.

Sam Blease was picked as a skinny midfielder. Has struggled also with physical demands of AFL with constant injuries and poor consistant form. Highly rated junior who was a AIS Academy and Vic Metro representative.

We picked Jack Watts who was a skinny forward that has struggled to bulk up and live up to his highly rated Junior career. Though I do reckon he will come good but not the big key forward everyone thought he would become. Highly rated AIS Academy, All Australian under 18, Larke Medalist,

Way too many skinny players who were all highly rated Junior players. No more thanks!

The only exception to all that really is the Lucas Cook selection... No one can actually explain why !! lol

Otherwise , yes, a distinct trend, in many respects. Picks....and failures, or underachieving. We need to learn.

[ChaserJ 3,972]

In the scenario that we go to the draft with the picks we have, pick 2 should be reserved for best available. This may well be a skinny kid.

Whilst the draft is being categorised as shallow, for the types of players our list requires (mids), I think there are likely to be good options a fair way down. No doubt the key position depth is poor and there may as well be no ruckman. This probably works in our favour as clubs may reach if this is their area of need (hello Richmond – pick 28 for Hampson).

If we do go skinny running type early, I’ve jotted down some names of contested ball winners who should be good AFL players that have a strong chance to be available at our second & third round picks.

Strong chance to be available 2^nd round: Dunstan, Z. Jones, Cripps, Battersby, Tsitas (would have had Dumont here, but think he goes higher) 3^rd onward: Holman, Harmes, Magginess, Franetic, Honeychurch, Jansen, Cavarra, R Knight.

[beelzebub 22,244]

What is this myth about BEST AVAILABLE ? it strikes me as being right up there with " one week at a time" as a total crock.

In any business you recruit or acquire assets as per your NEEDS.

So for mine it should be "Best fit for need"

What we dont need , just atm is another skinny kid. We need engine room grunt, so maybe let find the 'best avail grunt"

[Hannibal 5,814]

BH...first rule of footy....get the ball. Lets do that first huh , just saying

Fyfe is arguably the best player from his draft, but was overlooked early because he was too skinny. It's your approach to the contest that matters most as nearly always the adequate size comes.

I don't care if we choose Freeman, Aish, Kelly, Crouch or Scharenberg, but don't tell me we're well off or even OK for outside class, as we're not. Which was my point.

[dazzledavey36 48,952]

What is this myth about BEST AVAILABLE ? it strikes me as being right up there with " one week at a time" as a total crock.

In any business you recruit or acquire assets as per your NEEDS.

So for mine it should be "Best fit for need"

What we dont need , just atm is another skinny kid. We need engine room grunt, so maybe let find the 'best avail grunt"

100% correct. Too much we have gone best available and we have had no luck. Go for the best needs with is a couple of inside grunts who can win the ball in the clearances and stoppages.

[beelzebub 22,244]

Fyfe is arguably the best player from his draft, but was overlooked early because he was too skinny. It's your approach to the contest that matters most as nearly always the adequate size comes.

I don't care if we choose Freeman, Aish, Kelly, Crouch or Scharenberg, but don't tell me we're well off or even OK for outside class, as we're not. Which was my point.

We probably need some of that as well BH. But it would be a little bit like , for mine , the cart before the horse. Both necessary , but there's a logical order. I just want the foundations in place.

[dee-luded 2,958]

I have wanted Aish and/or Sheed most of the year but the last few weeks has made me join the Nathan Freeman camp!

I'm still a fan of Sheed but I like the pace of Freeman and if the dangerfield comparisons are right we definitely need to get him!

If we can't get a deal done to get Shiel I will be very happy with Freeman!

we certainly lack someone in the mold of a Dangerfield, Rohan, type & if freeman fits that type then lets look closely.

we can trade our 2nd Rnders if need be.

[titan_uranus 22,565]

Who are our abundance of outside mids? Who says he is outside only? Not saying he is the right choice but getting sick of this "you're either inside or outside" or skinny at 18 means you'll never win a contested ball. Just pick the best rounded mid and back to develop them accordingly.

Especially given that we now have the best chance to develop a midfielder that we've had for years at this club.

If the best midfielder available happens to be physically underdeveloped relative to some other potential draftees, that should not (ever) be a reason to not take him. The fact that our fitness and training regimes have been pathetic in recent years is not a reason to pick less skilled players simply because they have more muscle.

Moreover, as B-H said, skinniness isn't definitive of courage. Fyfe is a perfect example (also, players like Paul Johnson show that having a developed body doesn't necessarily mean you will be an aggressive player).

[beelzebub 22,244]

when does anyone want to actually start winning ?

2015, 2016....2020 ???

or now

Me, its now.

[rjay 23,945]

What is this myth about BEST AVAILABLE ? it strikes me as being right up there with " one week at a time" as a total crock.

In any business you recruit or acquire assets as per your NEEDS.

So for mine it should be "Best fit for need"

What we dont need , just atm is another skinny kid. We need engine room grunt, so maybe let find the 'best avail grunt"

...and that is exactly how we picked up Lucas Cook and Richmond picked Tambling over Buddy.

Best available is not a myth it's a must.

[ChaserJ 3,972]

Our needs can be met at various points of the draft, it’s not all about who we select at pick 2.

We have needs across the midfield. Our run (both ways) and spread was as big a problem as our ability to win clearances. It shouldn’t be lost that players who gain metre age and hit targets are valuable in transition from defence to attack, just have a look at who Ross Lyon sends his taggers to on a weekly basis. Who do we have that can do this with any regularity? Toumpas will, but Colin Sylvia was our leading ball carrier last year. Our midfield needs a bit of everything.

Edited October 9, 2013 by ChaserJ

[Arrow 1,257]

when does anyone want to actually start winning ?

2015, 2016....2020 ???

or now

Me, its now.

In the nicest possible way, you're a dope if you think not drafting skinny kids will bring success earlier.

For every Ollie Wines who comes on the first year with a big body there is Luke Tapscott another 'big body' who fails just like the skinny kids.

Dyson Heppell, Fyfe, Whitfield, Brad Hill, Aaron Mullett, Steven Motlop, Toby Greene and my new favourite example Chad Wingard are all skinny kids.

You're overlooking our bad drafting and picking players, for their body size.

It's not the types of players we picked that were wrong, it were the players themselves. Therein lies the problem.

Edited October 9, 2013 by Demon Land 7

[Slartibartfast 15,873]

Fyfe is arguably the best player from his draft, but was overlooked early because he was too skinny. It's your approach to the contest that matters most as nearly always the adequate size comes.

I don't care if we choose Freeman, Aish, Kelly, Crouch or Scharenberg, but don't tell me we're well off or even OK for outside class, as we're not. Which was my point.

You're forgetting Watts, he'll be very outside by all accounts!

[jumbo returns 6,504]

I just want picks that want an appetite for the contest.

Mongrels.

Make them team up with young Viney and they'll soon get the message about intensity.

BUT their love for the contest has to be there first.

[beelzebub 22,244]

In the nicest possible way, you're a dope if you think not drafting skinny kids will bring success earlier.

For every Ollie Wines who comes on the first year with a big body there is Luke Tapscott another 'big body' who fails just like the skinny kids.

Dyson Heppell, Fyfe, Whitfield, Brad Hill, Aaron Mullett, Steven Motlop, Toby Greene and my new favourite example Chad Wingard are all skinny kids.

You're overlooking our bad drafting and picking players, for their body size.

It's not the types of players we picked that were wrong, it were the players themselves. Therein lies the problem.

Oh, sorry...drafting skinny kids is the solution....

You need a balance in a team, but the first thing you need to do in footy is win the ball. We DONT win the ball, not nearly enough. Kids with NO core strength havent a snowflakes hope in hell at the contest . The first thing anyone waits for with a skinny kid is for him to cease being so.

Somehow an assumption, a given , had sneaked into all this discussion. , that being only skinny kids have talent. Its simply not the case.

People also need to take heed of the reality that there is a chasm of difference between kiddy ball and the bigger game. many a young player has been found wanting once they arrive at the big smoke. even those who've played against men in lesser leagues find a whole new reality upon arriving at the AFL's front door.

Am I suggesting there's no time or place to recruit Outside mids ? Of course not and that ridiculous to even contemplate but before you can make a superstructure ( of use ) you need a sound under carriage, other wise it goes NOWHERE

[Hannibal 5,814]

Any news on the mill ?

[beelzebub 22,244]

Any news on the mill ?

apparently some bloke called Buddy has moved Nth...seems that's all the news are interested in !!

[DeeSpencer 23,256]

I just want picks that want an appetite for the contest.

Mongrels.

Make them team up with young Viney and they'll soon get the message about intensity.

BUT their love for the contest has to be there first.

Yeah but there is not necessarily a direct correlation between that and size. Look at Tom McDonald, skinny tall, but has desire for the contest and work load and has proven to play early. Same goes for Fyfe who impacted plenty of games early despite how skinny he was.

No doubt more of the midfielders with bigger builds can influence early but if you can't run a 14+ or more beep test you wont get through preseason and get on the park and play early. Nathan Jones had a huge body when he was 18 and was super fit but it took him a long time to adapt to AFL.

Look at last years draft. Bulldogs took Stringer who's a huge, strong inside mid in the making but doesn't have near the tank to be much more than a forward. Wines who's still a monster for 18 but not as big was able to be managed through the season to contribute early. Jack Viney who's a little shorter but solid had a few injury issues that stopped him playing a whole season influenced some games but not most really.

Give me the best footballer, of which winning the ball and using the ball are probably still the most important attributes and I'll be happy. I don't care if he weighs 75kg or 85kg.

[beelzebub 22,244]

This thing about size and endeavour. I don't think anyone is really suggesting you have to be a brick built behemoth in order to have a crack. It's about your ability to effect the contest. Lighter types are going to struggle. its just a reality.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

...and that is exactly how we picked up Lucas Cook and Richmond picked Tambling over Buddy.

Best available is not a myth it's a must.

Who are the best midfielders in the competion? What are their body types and skill sets.

That is your what your "best available" looks like and it constitutes many things.

A player that looks great at junior footy or a lower grade may not necessarily make the transition. Silky skills or pure grunt won't cut it.

Look at your Abletts, Cotchins, Hanneberys, Mitchells. They are what we lack. Recruiters....go out and find me boys that look like them with similar developing skill sets.

Well rounded footballers with a combination of strength, poise, acceleration, skill, competetiveness and durability. Get me them ones.

And forget inside/outside mids. Give me the ones that do both.

Edited October 9, 2013 by dandeeman

[beelzebub 22,244]

...and that is exactly how we picked up Lucas Cook and Richmond picked Tambling over Buddy.

Best available is not a myth it's a must.

Cook is an aberration. Simply the choice of an idiot selector .No one can figure out how that happened. I believe the expert pundits rated Tambling higher in that draft. it also highlights that clubs were particular about finding players to fill roles. The Dogs were after mids, not forwards etc ot they would have taken Buddy surely.

Some things become more focused with the benefit of hindsight but what does OUR club need right now.??

[titan_uranus 22,565]

Oh, sorry...drafting skinny kids is the solution....

You need a balance in a team, but the first thing you need to do in footy is win the ball. We DONT win the ball, not nearly enough. Kids with NO core strength havent a snowflakes hope in hell at the contest . The first thing anyone waits for with a skinny kid is for him to cease being so.

Somehow an assumption, a given , had sneaked into all this discussion. , that being only skinny kids have talent. Its simply not the case.

People also need to take heed of the reality that there is a chasm of difference between kiddy ball and the bigger game. many a young player has been found wanting once they arrive at the big smoke. even those who've played against men in lesser leagues find a whole new reality upon arriving at the AFL's front door.

Am I suggesting there's no time or place to recruit Outside mids ? Of course not and that ridiculous to even contemplate but before you can make a superstructure ( of use ) you need a sound under carriage, other wise it goes NOWHERE

See, you're doing the exact same thing, but the other way.

You're assuming that the skinnier the player, the less courageous/aggressive they are. Similarly, you're assuming that muscular kids are more courageous. Neither of those are true.