POST MATCH DISCUSSION

[Go the Biff 3,442]

The difference between Blease and Davey is that Davey uses his pace to gain some space so he can then take his time to pinpoint his kick. Blease uses his pace to run as far as be can until be gets pinned so be has to kick the ball at full pace. Extremely difficult to do at the end of a long run.

Agree with this. I saw or heard that a commentator said Blease should just run & take 3 bounces whenever he gets the ball. Couldn't disagree more. He should use his pace as mrtwister suggests. At the moment he would be a nightmare if you were a leading forward & saw the ball in his hands. I think he can play & I know he can kick. He needs to play smarter & be coached a lot better

For all that it was pretty courageous of Blease to play yesterday. He had a horrible week which was represented by the black armband he wore & kissed after his goal.

[Mickey 4,731]

Agree with this. I saw or heard that a commentator said Blease should just run & take 3 bounces whenever he gets the ball. Couldn't disagree more. He should use his pace as mrtwister suggests. At the moment he would be a nightmare if you were a leading forward & saw the ball in his hands. I think he can play & I know he can kick. He needs to play smarter & be coached a lot better

For all that it was pretty courageous of Blease to play yesterday. He had a horrible week which was represented by the black armband he wore & kissed after his goal.

I saw the armband? Can I ask who it was for?

[old dee 23,872]

Maybe I'm delusional but I thought that was a lot less painful to watch than usual.

I know St Kilda are crap, but at least we managed to stay in possession of the footy for more than 2% of the game.

Yes we lack run, yes we are still poor defensively and yes some of our players should never kick a footy. But at least nobody packed up and left when they kicked a few goals in a row. We fought every single quarter, which is a good start.

Take out passengers and hopeless players like Byrnes, Pederson, Nicholson and so forth, and get Jones some help, and the turnaround will be quick. Not to mention a seriously good coach.

Tommy Mac destroyed that sook Reiwoldt, and Garland who continues to kill it like a boss.

But the biggest positive for me today was Watts. He was angry, he was animated, he worked hard and he showed more today than he has in a long time.

I walked away today not wanting to slit my wrists. I'm calling that a win.

Certainly a win for your wrists Jaded

[Norm Smith's Curse 2,602]

Small mercies Jaded

[rjay 25,093]

The difference between Blease and Davey is that Davey uses his pace to gain some space so he can then take his time to pinpoint his kick. Blease uses his pace to run as far as be can until be gets pinned so be has to kick the ball at full pace. Extremely difficult to do at the end of a long run.

Yep, good point and it's why he needs to keep playing at AFL level so he learns. He got away with this stuff as a junior and at VFL level, when he learns these lessons will be a very good footballer.

[What 18,810]

Just watched some of the replay

My favorite moment of the game was 14:10 left in the 3rd

theres a loose ball at centre half forward and Jimmy T charges in and puts his head over the ball with no fear, takes clean possession and is rewarded with the free kick for high contact

Kicks it to Watts who gets a free then goals.

This moment told me that Jimmy T is going to be a player and that he is far from just an outside receiver some on here perceive him as.

[Alf Stewart 73]

jimmy is ok. no prob there.

[deejammin' 2,373]

We had a crack yesterday. I enjoyed that element of it. We took the game on, we had a bit of the ball and didn't look as rudderless as in other performances this year.

A few things:

Watts was great, he's showed a bit in patches over the last couple of weeks but it seems to be coming together. He's definately a problem up forward when he gets to play on a 2nd or 3rd best defender and he seems to have gained some aggro in the way he attacks the contest. He needed to nail those goals in the 2nd and take some more marks, but if you have Clark in that forward line instead of Fitzy and a fit Dawes, Watts will be very problematic for the opposition.

Our midfield warmed into the game but the first 5 minutes were terrible, it was remiscent of the PA game the way we failed to win any centre clearances or even pressure the opposition. After this we were much better and did a good job of applying pressure around the ground.

We managed to lock it in our 50 regularly and really should have done a better job of scoring from our entries, just too rushed with the final decision and appaling kicking to the forward line.

Garland was excellent, TMac did a great job on Riewolt, Terlich showed a bit but butchered it, Clisby was ok, Pedersen needs to be out and replaced by Frawley...
Overall some good signs, there seems to be alot more positives than only 2 weeks ago, so there we are.

Last but not least, THE UMPIRING was woeful, there were shocking frees both ways but St Kilda got the rub of the green in as much as the frees they got stopped the play and resulted in goals, where as frees to us were largely inneffectual.

1. The too high decision to Kosi when he was clearly holding the ball and tackled below the shoulder in the goalsquare was terrible.

2. The holding decision where Roo and Tmac were wrestling then Roo throws his arms out to reveal no pull of the jumper, no hold, no arm bars, nothing and received a free kick was a joke, Gerard Wheately defending it on radio was also a disgrace. Terrible decision.

3. The 50 metres against Dawes when he actually spoiled the ball in a marking contest was terrible and resulted in a goal. He hit the ball with one action and it was so close you could argue it should have been play on rather than a mark!

4. The sheparding decision in the huddle to Clint Jones was a disgrace, paid from 50 metres away by a largely unsighted umpire, then the fact that the free was taken from the point of the square by Reiwolt compounded a terrible decision.

All of these frees changed the momentum and took the ball from a neutral situation, in two occasions outside 50 and handed St Kilda undeserved goals. This was the difference and the Umpires received the boos they deserved from our supporters. I know we always get the worst umps but for a professtional sport to still have amateurs (non-full time pros) umpiring the game is a disgrace. Would have been an interesting game had these decisions come out neutral.

[titan_uranus 25,045]

Last but not least, THE UMPIRING was woeful, there were shocking frees both ways but St Kilda got the rub of the green in as much as the frees they got stopped the play and resulted in goals, where as frees to us were largely inneffectual.

1. The too high decision to Kosi when he was clearly holding the ball and tackled below the shoulder in the goalsquare was terrible.

2. The holding decision where Roo and Tmac were wrestling then Roo throws his arms out to reveal no pull of the jumper, no hold, no arm bars, nothing and received a free kick was a joke, Gerard Wheately defending it on radio was also a disgrace. Terrible decision.

3. The 50 metres against Dawes when he actually spoiled the ball in a marking contest was terrible and resulted in a goal. He hit the ball with one action and it was so close you could argue it should have been play on rather than a mark!

4. The sheparding decision in the huddle to Clint Jones was a disgrace, paid from 50 metres away by a largely unsighted umpire, then the fact that the free was taken from the point of the square by Reiwolt compounded a terrible decision.

All of these frees changed the momentum and took the ball from a neutral situation, in two occasions outside 50 and handed St Kilda undeserved goals. This was the difference and the Umpires received the boos they deserved from our supporters. I know we always get the worst umps but for a professtional sport to still have amateurs (non-full time pros) umpiring the game is a disgrace. Would have been an interesting game had these decisions come out neutral.

Agree with all that. Those four really stood out to me. All four were appalling.

Having said that, there was a holding the ball decision paid against Riewoldt that was shocking, so it wasn't all St Kilda's way. But these four all led directly to goals, and none of them were there, and they often robbed us of momentum. Shocking stuff (and interestingly, we had some decent umpires; number 14, Heath Ryan, did the Grand Final last year and often umpires big-ticket games).

[rufus 1,162]

How bad are our attempts to clear the ball from defensive fifty too? The huddle? Still? Easiest play to defend against and has been since the '90s. There's not much you can change in a week, but we are so predictable. From our first kick out, St Kilda pre-empted our setup and were waiting. Sure enough, turn over.

Yes. And if we manage to successfully find a target on our first kick, we hit a brick wall on the second. For mine, it comes down to work rate. Our players are not prepared to run with the intention of creating space for one of their mates. I strongly believe that with the right coaching and buy in from the players this aspect will change. With this gut running in and out of space, opportunities will open up and we will clear the ball more easily.

It took me 150 games of football to understand how important real true gut running was. It finds you in space more often, it opens up spaces for your teammates and, just as importantly, it means you find your hitting contests at greater speed simply because you are always running hard. I honestly believe this is also why some of our players look so tentative at times. They are not running hard enough and are often caught in two minds and are on the back foot. This should be something that can be fixed with good instruction/mentoring/coaching.

[Mono 455]

Just watched some of the replay

My favorite moment of the game was 14:10 left in the 3rd

theres a loose ball at centre half forward and Jimmy T charges in and puts his head over the ball with no fear, takes clean possession and is rewarded with the free kick for high contact

Kicks it to Watts who gets a free then goals.

..................................

Remember the event. Also remember: while Watts was lining up, Dawes went over to Toumpas and had a longish chat with him which included a bit of pointing to different areas of the forward space. Dawes was doing a bit of 'leading' or coaching. Excellent.

[Adam The God 30,421]

Whatever one might say about the game and the opposition, according to my Footy Live app, this was only the second time this year that we won the Inside 50 count (46-45). Does this reflect poorly on St. Kilda or us for our inability to convert in front of goal or both?

Both I think, Jack.

[Adam The God 30,421]

Thought he was great CB. Really presented and competed well and gave off a few goals to go with his 2. His poise and decision making to set up Fitzy's goal in the final term was top notch. Was burnt by Howe twice in the final term also when he was on his own in the goal square.

Really happy with his progress over the last 3 matches. Just think of what he may produce next year when he'll be our 4th tall forward and the best defenders going to Clark, Dawes & Hogan?

Yeah, I think this excites me too. He has to learn to beat the first or second best opposition defender this year. That will hold him in great stead next year, when he'll have far more support and receive a weaker opponent.

[rufus 1,162]

jimmy is ok. no prob there.

Jimmy will be a good player. To me, he goes hard enough, but he does need to improve his ability to compete in one on one contests. Granted, this is probably not what he was noticed for in his junior days. He was probably such a smooth mover and great user that he didn't have to win one on one contests to be noticed. He will need to win them to be a consistently good player in the AFL. His development in this area will come down to the club's development skills (which clearly haven't worked for a number of other players in the one on one contested football area over recent history) and his own desire to be the best player he can be.

I have faith in him.

[jnrmac 20,189]

We had a crack yesterday. I enjoyed that element of it. We took the game on, we had a bit of the ball and didn't look as rudderless as in other performances this year.

A few things:

Watts was great, he's showed a bit in patches over the last couple of weeks but it seems to be coming together. He's definately a problem up forward when he gets to play on a 2nd or 3rd best defender and he seems to have gained some aggro in the way he attacks the contest. He needed to nail those goals in the 2nd and take some more marks, but if you have Clark in that forward line instead of Fitzy and a fit Dawes, Watts will be very problematic for the opposition.

Our midfield warmed into the game but the first 5 minutes were terrible, it was remiscent of the PA game the way we failed to win any centre clearances or even pressure the opposition. After this we were much better and did a good job of applying pressure around the ground.

We managed to lock it in our 50 regularly and really should have done a better job of scoring from our entries, just too rushed with the final decision and appaling kicking to the forward line.

Garland was excellent, TMac did a great job on Riewolt, Terlich showed a bit but butchered it, Clisby was ok, Pedersen needs to be out and replaced by Frawley...

Overall some good signs, there seems to be alot more positives than only 2 weeks ago, so there we are.

Last but not least, THE UMPIRING was woeful, there were shocking frees both ways but St Kilda got the rub of the green in as much as the frees they got stopped the play and resulted in goals, where as frees to us were largely inneffectual.

1. The too high decision to Kosi when he was clearly holding the ball and tackled below the shoulder in the goalsquare was terrible.

2. The holding decision where Roo and Tmac were wrestling then Roo throws his arms out to reveal no pull of the jumper, no hold, no arm bars, nothing and received a free kick was a joke, Gerard Wheately defending it on radio was also a disgrace. Terrible decision.

3. The 50 metres against Dawes when he actually spoiled the ball in a marking contest was terrible and resulted in a goal. He hit the ball with one action and it was so close you could argue it should have been play on rather than a mark!

4. The sheparding decision in the huddle to Clint Jones was a disgrace, paid from 50 metres away by a largely unsighted umpire, then the fact that the free was taken from the point of the square by Reiwolt compounded a terrible decision.

All of these frees changed the momentum and took the ball from a neutral situation, in two occasions outside 50 and handed St Kilda undeserved goals. This was the difference and the Umpires received the boos they deserved from our supporters. I know we always get the worst umps but for a professtional sport to still have amateurs (non-full time pros) umpiring the game is a disgrace. Would have been an interesting game had these decisions come out neutral.

What about the 50m against Davey?? A stKilda player got first hands on it, it bounced up and was caught by another StK player who was awarded the mark, Davey tackled as it was clearly no mark and bang 50m. Disgraceful

[Adam The God 30,421]

I thought it was interesting to watch Dawes and Watts in the same forward line. Watts is that much smarter as a footballer, he leads to the right spots to get used, he was just let down by disposal up the field at times. Dawes is more a straight line lead up player, which over the next few years with Clark, Hogan, Watts and then Howe pinch hitting down there at times I'm not sure we'll have much use for.

Unfortunate a legacy of the Neeld era that can't be undone overnight is the $500k Dawes is on and the 3 year deal for Pederson. Neither are going to help us much in the long term I fear - that said at least Dawes shows some leadership out on the field and as a bigger body he may offer something to take the heat off the other tall forwards.

I thought game plan wise there was a clear change both with and without the ball. Less long kicking down the line and more trying to run and create and take the game on, looking to use shorter options. At times the decision making looked as though they'd only been practicing it this week (which is true). Defensively there was a bit more pressure around the ball and a bit more working together, not just blindly locking in to your man and burning your teammate if his man got free. Still a very long way to go but a much improved performance compared to every other game this year

Absolutely. It was very obvious early on and it remained that Craig must have emphasised possession retention as an essential. Instead of kicking it long up the line every time, we were happy to chip the ball around a lot more. Side ways, if need be. Backwards, if need be. This lead to a misleading increased disposal efficiency throughout the game, but we played a smarter and more patient game yesterday. Eventually our skills and decision making killed us, but Craig has already identified that Neeld's long game up the line is futile with these players at his disposal. Personally, I think it's a really an ordinary plan with any list. Its emphasis was on teaching the players to win their own ball - ie. contested possessions. Guess what. The modern game is about uncontested possession and your ability to get the ball into space, not kicking to contested situations and packs. To say nothing of being thoroughly predictable, as we have been under Neeld.

[stuie 7,374]

Remember the event. Also remember: while Watts was lining up, Dawes went over to Toumpas and had a longish chat with him which included a bit of pointing to different areas of the forward space. Dawes was doing a bit of 'leading' or coaching. Excellent.

Perception is funny isn't it.

Dawes points and he's "teaching" and "leading". Moloney points and he's a "dummy spitter".

Just saying...

[Fat Tony 5,273]

Agree with this. I saw or heard that a commentator said Blease should just run & take 3 bounces whenever he gets the ball. Couldn't disagree more. He should use his pace as mrtwister suggests. At the moment he would be a nightmare if you were a leading forward & saw the ball in his hands. I think he can play & I know he can kick. He needs to play smarter & be coached a lot better

For all that it was pretty courageous of Blease to play yesterday. He had a horrible week which was represented by the black armband he wore & kissed after his goal.

He is trying to get close enough to kick a goal.

[titan_uranus 25,045]

Perception is funny isn't it.

Dawes points and he's "teaching" and "leading". Moloney points and he's a "dummy spitter".

Just saying...

Dunn also points.

Pointing means nothing.

The difference is elsewhere. Dawes leads by example on the field, which Dunn doesn't do. He also leads by example off the field, with maturity, sensibility, and measuredness, which Moloney didn't do.

When you factor that in, you see Dawes' 'pointing' as being indicative of a true leader. Moloney 'led' when he felt like it (i.e. when Bailey was letting him do what he wanted, as opposed to when Neeld was trying to implement new ideas/structures for our stoppage work). Dunn is just an annoying [censored].

[stuie 7,374]

Pointing means nothing.

That's actually kinda my point... Pardon the pun.

[titan_uranus 25,045]

That's actually kinda my point... Pardon the pun.

I know. What I was saying is that Dawes' pointing becomes seen as leadership because of other factors. Moloney's was viewed as indicative of nothing by some because of other factors. Etc.

Pun not pardoned. You can do better.

[Adam The God 30,421]

In his first two years Trengove moved like Dal Santo now he doesn't its either he is injured or too heavy in the legs. You don't just suddenly become treacle for no reason. Had been much improved the last couple of weeks but was poor yesterday.

It's the bikes. I tell you, it's the bikes. Look at his calves. Way too thick.

He has gone from an average effective disposal rate of 76% in 2011, to 59% in 2012 and 52% so far this year.

To put that into perspective Nicholson has an average effective disposal rate of 64% this year.

Ones was a rookie and the other a priority pick...

Sure he has pace, but Jetta also has pace and he has an average effective disposal rate of 85% this year.

I want him to be great but seriously needs to lift his game... the turnovers is killing us. Doesn't help when they put so much effort to get it forward for him to turn it over because he cant hit a target 5m away.

Just frustrating. Will be good to see what a pre-season can do to him.

Blease has got a lot of work to do on his game if he's going to make it. To be honest, probably more than quite a lot of other demons. I'm not saying he can't make it, but he has some hurdles to overcome. He lacks endurance, an ability to run the other way and makes poor decisions. There's also the disposal efficiency. I watched him in the VFL a few weeks ago. He is a massive confidence player. Hopefully the new coach can nurture him a little more and increase that disposal efficiency. He must ensure he works the other way though.

Very true, and I think he was averaging 15 disposals then as well and even got 2 Brownlow votes!

Needs to train with Davey. The two could learn something off eachother:

Davey; to get back his old confidence and back himself for a run

Blease; to hit short targets consistently

I'm not sure I'd be sticking him alongside Davey. If Aaron trains at all like he plays, I'd suggest he's very, very lazy. Used to love him, but he's done and was so two years ago.

[rjay 25,093]

Yes. And if we manage to successfully find a target on our first kick, we hit a brick wall on the second. For mine, it comes down to work rate. Our players are not prepared to run with the intention of creating space for one of their mates. I strongly believe that with the right coaching and buy in from the players this aspect will change. With this gut running in and out of space, opportunities will open up and we will clear the ball more easily.

It took me 150 games of football to understand how important real true gut running was. It finds you in space more often, it opens up spaces for your teammates and, just as importantly, it means you find your hitting contests at greater speed simply because you are always running hard. I honestly believe this is also why some of our players look so tentative at times. They are not running hard enough and are often caught in two minds and are on the back foot. This should be something that can be fixed with good instruction/mentoring/coaching.

Yes. And if we manage to successfully find a target on our first kick, we hit a brick wall on the second. For mine, it comes down to work rate. Our players are not prepared to run with the intention of creating space for one of their mates. I strongly believe that with the right coaching and buy in from the players this aspect will change. With this gut running in and out of space, opportunities will open up and we will clear the ball more easily.

It took me 150 games of football to understand how important real true gut running was. It finds you in space more often, it opens up spaces for your teammates and, just as importantly, it means you find your hitting contests at greater speed simply because you are always running hard. I honestly believe this is also why some of our players look so tentative at times. They are not running hard enough and are often caught in two minds and are on the back foot. This should be something that can be fixed with good instruction/mentoring/coaching.

This is spot on, and if you look at where Terlich gets into trouble sometimes (not always) it's that no one has bothered to make position up the ground for him...they are not working hard enough so then he needs to find another let out option and gets rushed into his next play.

[Hardnut 327]

Very happy with Watts' game yesterday, he certainly knows how to play up forward - now he needs to put on 15 kg and become a real power forward.

Will be interesting to see how Watts, Hogan, Clarke and Dawes work out - not sure there is room for all three, assuming all three are fit at the same time.

Garland and McDonald very good down back - with the return of Frawley it's a good start to a solid backline.

Now for the midfield!

[Hardnut 327]

One additional point - Dunn is proving quite serviceable - might yet make it!