Will Martin get his chance back or will they give Cook a go....

[Dinosaur Rover 197]

A lot of Stef Martin hate, when in reality he is miles and miles ahead of any second ruck option we have on our list (and that includes Mitch Clark who should never be risked in the ruck anyway *sob*).

With Rivers and Garland possibly moving forward more permanently, Stef could easily shuffle down back when not rucking.

He should play this week, and I believe he will.

We forget so quickly, but he was one of our best players last year and came on in leaps and bounds. Injury has ruined his season thus far.

Well said! To quote the review...

Stef Martin: - Kicks 14, Handballs 7, Marks 7, Tackles 1, Goals 2

Playing as a key forward and second ruck, Stef was very physical and hit the packs hard, giving a strong contest in the air and at ground level. Stef's form in recent weeks will help boost his chances for senior selection.

very physical and hit the packs hard

He will set up opportunities in the forward line for front and centre types like Davey Magner etc. and we need him as a second ruck. His form in recent weeks is usually a good sign its not a flash in the pan.

[MikeyJ 60]

Who takes second ruck then? I believe the need for Sellar having continuity in defence trumps any weaknesses Martin may have as a forward.

A very valid point and the only reason that Martin might get a gig.

In terms of structure, Martin fills the role better than Cook and in all likelihood will play against the Lions. Forward entries can be directed to Garland/Rivers instead of Martin, of course, although neither is Clark. And we all know the importance Neeld gives to structure in his teams.

However, I don't see a long-term future for Stef Martin at the MFC. He is too limited by foot to play key forward, plays slightly too short to be a genuine ruck and we have a surfeit of key defenders who make better decisions. The sub rule has removed the need for a second ruck on the bench, which is a real pity for him. Clark's arrival has removed the need for a 'Leigh Brown type', which would have been perfect in the long term. Clark's absence will probably be why Martin plays a good chunk of the rest of 2012.

But in the long run, I'd prefer to see us fielding either genuine long-term prospects or proven players of quality, rather than NQR types who are still battling to learn the game after five years in the system.

[satyricon 267]

A very valid point and the only reason that Martin might get a gig.

In terms of structure, Martin fills the role better than Cook and in all likelihood will play against the Lions. Forward entries can be directed to Garland/Rivers instead of Martin, of course, although neither is Clark. And we all know the importance Neeld gives to structure in his teams.

However, I don't see a long-term future for Stef Martin at the MFC. He is too limited by foot to play key forward, plays slightly too short to be a genuine ruck and we have a surfeit of key defenders who make better decisions. The sub rule has removed the need for a second ruck on the bench, which is a real pity for him. Clark's arrival has removed the need for a 'Leigh Brown type', which would have been perfect in the long term. Clark's absence will probably be why Martin plays a good chunk of the rest of 2012.

But in the long run, I'd prefer to see us fielding either genuine long-term prospects or proven players of quality, rather than NQR types who are still battling to learn the game after five years in the system.

I was reading the above whilst drinking a coffee, I wished I hadn't, after spilling it, can I ask whether you actually watch the games

Martin was the most improved player on our list last year, this year he has been hampered by an old hip injury playing up, I know because I have had at least two ten minute chats with him

He then, trying to get back fit as soon as possible, managed to damage his quad, he is now back fit and firing

Unless you are Sandilands Maxy Gawn or NikNat since when has 200cm been too short to play ruck

He has kicked six goals in his last two games for Casey, yes he missed from right in front at the weekend but so has every forward I have ever watched at one time or other

I think Stef will get the nod this week, with specific instructions

Unless of course Neeld comes up with something completely left field, which I for one am getting used to and look forward to maybe happening

Edited June 27, 2012 by satyricon

[MikeyJ 60]

I was reading the above whilst drinking a coffee, I wished I hadn't, after spilling it, can I ask whether you actually watch the games

Martin was the most improved player on our list last year, this year he has been hampered by an old hip injury playing up, I know because I have had at least two ten minute chats with him

He then, trying to get back fit as soon as possible, managed to damage his quad, he is now back fit and firing

Unless you are Sandilands Maxy Gawn or NikNat since when has 200cm been too short to play ruck

He has kicked six goals in his last two games for Casey, yes he missed from right in front at the weekend but so has every forward I have ever watched at one time or other

I think Stef will get the nod this week, with specific instructions

Unless of course Neeld comes up with something completely left field, which I for one am getting used to and look forward to maybe happening

My assessment of Stef Martin has been made by watching him over his entire career at Melbourne - not just one week at Casey. I'm not a fan of players who have chronic kicking issues playing as key forwards.

I'm also thoroughly aware that he's been injured this year. That has nothing to do with my assessment of his ability and what he can offer the team.

As for his ruck attributes, read the nuance in my post. Stef might be ~200cm but I said he PLAYS short, in the same way that David Neitz played tall despite only being 191cm. Mark Jamar is the same height but I'd argue Jamar plays much taller than Stef.

I agree he was vastly improved in 2011 but the role we're looking at having him play this year (a replacement for Clark) is slightly different to the role he was playing last year, in that there is more of an emphasis on his ability to play forward.

I understand that you are a fan of Martin's. You should also be able to understand that I am not, for the reasons I've clearly outlined above. Twice.

[satyricon 267]

My assessment of Stef Martin has been made by watching him over his entire career at Melbourne - not just one week at Casey. I'm not a fan of players who have chronic kicking issues playing as key forwards.

I'm also thoroughly aware that he's been injured this year. That has nothing to do with my assessment of his ability and what he can offer the team.

As for his ruck attributes, read the nuance in my post. Stef might be ~200cm but I said he PLAYS short, in the same way that David Neitz played tall despite only being 191cm. Mark Jamar is the same height but I'd argue Jamar plays much taller than Stef.

I agree he was vastly improved in 2011 but the role we're looking at having him play this year (a replacement for Clark) is slightly different to the role he was playing last year, in that there is more of an emphasis on his ability to play forward.

I understand that you are a fan of Martin's. You should also be able to understand that I am not, for the reasons I've clearly outlined above. Twice.

Yes I would agree I am a fan of Martin, last year he played a lot in the ruck when Jamar was injured, and you acknowledge he improved last year, so therefore he must have played 'tall' , I don't follow your logic

What chronic kicking issues? He is a ruckman/fwd Jamar has kicked 45 goals in 122 games so 1 in every 3, Martin has kicked 17 in 52 so 1 in every 3

If you watch the broadcast on the ABC and the commentators/opinion makers say he has an issue with this goalkicking, that is not necessarily correct, it is their opinion

If I was Neeld and he plays Martin my instruction to him would be to use his size and athleticism and crash a few packs, I doubt he will be the Nr 1 target up front anyway except for the 'get out of jail' long bomb, think it will be our new gun fwd Rivers

Edited June 27, 2012 by satyricon

[Forest Demon 4,681]

As supporters we like to see the youngsters get picked, hoping they might just burst onto the stage, as they are unknown and at this stage could be anything. But the reality of the situation, what we know we are going to get from Martin is most likely going to better than what we get from a young skinny kid who still has a lot of development to do at Casey.

Those laying the boot into Martin are being a little harsh also. Similar to the way everyone was sticking the boot into Dan Nicholson earlier in the year, concentrating on one or two aspects of his game that need work, but forgetting all the good work he was doing last season, and then as soon as he came back into team he has been excellent. Same deal with Stef, he will never be world beater, but he has a lot of good attributes, and is coming of a good 2011 before an injury interrupted start to 2012.

[old55 22,844]

Martin's biggest problem is his contested marking, he just doesn't seem to able to read the play or the flight. If it does fall on his head by accident he can grab it. Look, he's got more to work with than Paul Johnson, that's the best I can say.

The player that replaces Clark has to take 2nd ruck. Did someone mention Jack Darling? I believe NikNat was the hanky you were reaching for in this instance.

[old dee 23,505]

Martin's biggest problem is his contested marking, he just doesn't seem to able to read the play or the flight. If it does fall on his head by accident he can grab it. Look, he's got more to work with than Paul Johnson, that's the best I can say.

The player that replaces Clark has to take 2nd ruck. Did someone mention Jack Darling? I believe NikNat was the hanky you were reaching for in this instance.

Oh no not the dreaded JD!

[Surfer Rosa 15]

As if Lucas Cook will get a run in front of Stef Martin!

6 pages of bluster and blah blah blah

[Jonesbag 487]

heard from who?

[satyricon 267]

"Neeld said Watts was one of four players who could fill the void, with defender James Frawley, ruckman Stefan Martin and untried youngster Lucas Cook also under consideration.

"James Frawley has been in my office every day this week wanting to know if it's his turn to be the defender-come-forward," Neeld said.

"We feel we play better footy with two tall target forwards and we'll try and get the best mix to make sure we play that way.

"We just need someone to come in and understand the role that we want them to play."

From SEN website and from Neeld's press conference, Brisbane will have no idea

Two talls, Clark, Rivers and Garland made 3, I love it, Chip to the forward line, as if!!!!

Note Matt McGuire is out so Merrett may have to go back if we go really tall so it may be win win, although it is their 'little' forwards doing the damage

[PaulRB 6,297]

Given what Neeld said, I'd say Spencer is in to ruck, Jamar forward.

Edited June 28, 2012 by PaulRB

[MikeyJ 60]

Yes I would agree I am a fan of Martin, last year he played a lot in the ruck when Jamar was injured, and you acknowledge he improved last year, so therefore he must have played 'tall' , I don't follow your logic

What chronic kicking issues? He is a ruckman/fwd Jamar has kicked 45 goals in 122 games so 1 in every 3, Martin has kicked 17 in 52 so 1 in every 3

If you watch the broadcast on the ABC and the commentators/opinion makers say he has an issue with this goalkicking, that is not necessarily correct, it is their opinion

If I was Neeld and he plays Martin my instruction to him would be to use his size and athleticism and crash a few packs, I doubt he will be the Nr 1 target up front anyway except for the 'get out of jail' long bomb, think it will be our new gun fwd Rivers

I agree with your guess at Neeld's instructions to him.

But I'll say for a third time - my opinion of Martin as a key forward is not gleaned from ABC commentators or anyone else. It's gleaned from watching him stuff up set shots from 35m out on a slight angle, time and time again. For all his excellent qualities, I wouldn't holding up Mark Jamar's goalkicking ability as something to which others should aspire.

And I'll give up on trying to explain the idea of 'playing tall'.

[old dee 23,505]

I agree with your guess at Neeld's instructions to him.

But I'll say for a third time - my opinion of Martin as a key forward is not gleaned from ABC commentators or anyone else. It's gleaned from watching him stuff up set shots from 35m out on a slight angle, time and time again. For all his excellent qualities, I wouldn't holding up Mark Jamar's goalkicking ability as something to which others should aspire.

And I'll give up on trying to explain the idea of 'playing tall'.

Sounds like Matthew Richardson rpfc!!

hope he plays as well as him over the next ten years

[binman 42,010]

I reckon Martin is a monty to come in. He is big enough to play a similar pack busting role as Clark and having that player is a key to Neelds game plan. Also he played well last week so a call up is warranted on form. Cook was average at best last week and in any case isn't big enough.

It is funny how players can fall out of favour, Martin was given heaps of respect and love last year when he stepped up to cover Jamar being out. Deservedly so IMO and he was a massive improver. Perhaps Clarks injury represents a similar opportunity'. I really rate him and despite his flawed kicking technique can still play that forward role well.

[rpfc 28,052]

Sounds like Matthew Richardson rpfc!!

hope he plays as well as him over the next ten years

That isn't me, MikeyJ has an avatar like mine.

It is confusing...

[old dee 23,505]

That isn't me, MikeyJ has an avatar like mine.

It is confusing...

Sorry rpfc I will have to play closer attention in the future.

[Undeeterred 3,045]

I agree with your guess at Neeld's instructions to him.

But I'll say for a third time - my opinion of Martin as a key forward is not gleaned from ABC commentators or anyone else. It's gleaned from watching him stuff up set shots from 35m out on a slight angle, time and time again. For all his excellent qualities, I wouldn't holding up Mark Jamar's goalkicking ability as something to which others should aspire.

And I'll give up on trying to explain the idea of 'playing tall'.

I agree with you - if I had to pick someone to hit the side of a barn for my life, I'd probably even take Chippa over Stef Martin...

[satyricon 267]

I agree with you - if I had to pick someone to hit the side of a barn for my life, I'd probably even take Chippa over Stef Martin...

I might give up,

can add Martin to the Morton, Bate, Bartram list,

if he kicks 10 at the weekend the focus will be on how many he missed.....

"time and time again" has to be completely overblown for a player who has played 52 games for the first couple of years in defence, then the ruck and the occasional forward foray.........

[Jaded No More 67,789]

Martin's biggest problem is his contested marking, he just doesn't seem to able to read the play or the flight.

He can read the play down back, and with Garland and Rivers up forward, I think it's time Stef went back when not rucking.

At the end of the day we have to give Jamar a hand, and Sellar is absolutely useless in there, and Spencer gives you nothing around the ground, so what options do we actually have?

[Ouch! 2,205]

I might give up,

can add Martin to the Morton, Bate, Bartram list,

if he kicks 10 at the weekend the focus will be on how many he missed.....

"time and time again" has to be completely overblown for a player who has played 52 games for the first couple of years in defence, then the ruck and the occasional forward foray.........

I think the main point you are missing is that we need a replacement Key Forward that can pinch hit as 2nd Ruck. I don't think that anyone is arguing that Martin can do the second ruck part of the role, but as the key forward able to take contested marks and break open packs... and ideally snag a few goals.... When you have seen Martin break open packs and take contested marks?

I am not advocating Cook over Martin here, just pointing out that Martin isn't a 'ready-made' replacement key forward regardless of how much he might have improved last year in the ruck.

[Guest KingDingAling]

Id bring Stef Martin in and play him mostly in the ruck with Jamar mostly playing forward.

Jamar needs a kick, he doesnt get many, I think he would benefit greatly to slot a few goals,

Jamar always looks to give off the hands and not kick in 2012, he is scared to kick!!

Make him play, make him be that man, make him grow in confidence and stop being scared to get a kick.

That way Stef can continue on with his ruck domination, like he always does, taking apart opposition

ruckman and leaving opposition supporters wondering who the kid is.

[old55 22,844]

He can read the play down back, and with Garland and Rivers up forward, I think it's time Stef went back when not rucking.

At the end of the day we have to give Jamar a hand, and Sellar is absolutely useless in there, and Spencer gives you nothing around the ground, so what options do we actually have?

I want a stable back six - I don't want Martin coming out of there to ruck and you couldn't have Martin anad Sellar both down there. If Martin is back, he's permanent back in place of Sellar. That job in the backline is to nullify the gorilla - there's not too much "reading" required which suits Martuin's limitations - he's big, fast and dumb (in football terms) - you can add other adjectives in private to suit your tastes.

We're in a bind - we need another fwd/2nd ruck at least while Clark is injured. If he's good enough then Clark can play permanent fwd when he comes back. If we can't find that solution then we need another marking fwd - IMO that's Rivers until Cook forces him out. Right now our best solution is Martin fwd/ruck and I acknowledge the limitations.

[Rob Mac...... 635]

Here's a crazy one: Martin plays 2nd ruck & backline while we give Chippa a go at what he's been dying to do all year, IE. play forward!!

If Frawley doesn't work up forward or if the defense falls apart without him, they trade spots.

[old dee 23,505]

Well it is settled now.

Cook did not even make the emergency list.

I was very confident he would not get a game this week.

Maybe a game in the last couple but he is not up to AFL level by some distance.

If you cannot beat Bennell and Spencer for a spot in the best 25 you are coming from a long way back.