Interesting stuff with the merger Macca - you seem to be well up with it. I was too young to know what was happening so thanks for the history lesson. I did get lost though, does the proposed merger reflect where we are as a team onfield now?

Wouldn't think so HG , but I and a few others only got involved ( and sidetracked ) when in defence of the rank and file members re the proposed merger .

I certainly didn't start the debate and I knew It was totally off topic , but as you know , it's hard not to bite sometimes .

Some of the people on this site have no doubt heard it all before , but often stuff gets repeated in forums .

Cheers

Edited March 18, 201213 yr by Macca

Dee-luded do you seriously expect me to compare the govenment of Myanmar

with the MFC?

Are you saving that Ian Ridley was a murdering dictator.

Oh please

No, neither of us are. But you seem to share a common flippancy with them, about the democratic processes...

Wouldn't think so HG , but I and a few others only got involved ( and sidetracked ) when in defence of the rank and file members re the proposed merger .

I certainly didn't start the debate and I knew It was totally off topic , but as you know , it's hard not to bite sometimes .

Some of the people on this site have no doubt heard it all before , but often stuff gets repeated in forums .

Cheers

Haha. All good. Great entertainment thats for sure and very educating!! I might ask you some questions another day about it as it must of been a terrible time.

Its hard arguing with people who love circular arguments - impossible to get your point across - they are never wrong so to speak.

Anyway keep up the good posts and go Dees.

No, neither of us are. But you seem to share a common flippancy with them, about the democratic processes...

Well perhaps I misjudged your intention Dee-luded.

I was just trying to point out it is now ancient history.

I get annoyed when we want to live in the 1950's let alone 20 years ago.

Lets just get on with 2012 and beyond

We are back in 2009

Bewdy ! I get to go out with Stella again .

Cheers

Easy with the insults 'Dreamweaver' .

The attempted merger is part of our history . Just because you don't find it interesting doesn't make you judge and jury

no problem with that Macca, good that we all have an opinion and share some passion

Well perhaps I misjudged your intention Dee-luded.

I was just trying to point out it is now ancient history.

I get annoyed when we want to live in the 1950's let alone 20 years ago.

Lets just get on with 2012 and beyond

again Old dee, this is a democracy here, as are the things we choose to talk/post about on this thread. As you have, so in a democracy, do as the majority do, or lump it.

Bewdy ! I get to go out with Stella again .

Cheers

Tell Us more!!! B)

Me too mate in fact i am being to wonder if I am past it

let me put it this way

i will always have hope......but my expectations are really shot to the shizenhausen

let me put it this way

i will always have hope......but my expectations are really shot to the shizenhausen

Thats probably a healthy thing at this stage. No good going too early, Our train's not due till 2014. and then were jostling for which platform we'll get.

Tell Us more!!! B)

This site is "G" rated dl .

let me put it this way

i will always have hope......but my expectations are really shot to the shizenhausen

That is the perfect way to sum it all up. Same here.

But isn't that the whole bone of contention - "where are we HONESTLY at" - budgets do preclude you from developing your whole player list from reaching their highest potential. Access to good picks stand for nothing if you cant develop them.

What comes first the chicken or the eggs. Its clear the facts are pointing toward if you dont at least match your opposition FD departments spend you wont get to the "pointy end"

You read just like another poster on here last year......what was his name? Had a chimp icon...nick name escapes me...anyone?

Edited March 18, 201213 yr by Rusty Nails

You read just like another poster on here last year......what was his name? Had a chimp icon...nick name escapes me...anyone?

Artie Bucco??

Maybe we are tanking again? Finish 2nd last, activate scully picks, and bingo! Picks 2,3,4.

Maybe we are tanking again? Finish 2nd last, activate scully picks, and bingo! Picks 2,3,4.

Why not finish last and pick up 1 2 3?

Let take things with a grain of salt. A young Carlton team won the NAB cup a few years back and still got the spoon.

Performances aren't ideal, but like anything new, it takes time to understand to and execute.

Unless the AFL put a cap on the amount of money that clubs can spend on their FD's we will continue to see discrepancies .

And the gap is probably going to get wider .

Collingwood have a gross income of about 70 mil . Ours is about 40 mil . ( up from 26 mil just a few years ago ) Because of our small supporter/member base we've got "Buckleys chance" of bridging the gap to a great extent .

But , the thing in our favour is that their may be a ceiling on how much a FD "spend" is really effective .

Say , after around about 20 mil , it may just be wasted money . I mean , how many sets of weights , exercise bikes , masseurs , diet plans , ovals to train on , sports scientists , coaches etc etc etc do you need ? Surely you get to a point where anything more would be unnecessary . One multi vitamin a day is sufficient , any more and you're peeing bright orange !!

We don't hear about these sort FD type spends in other big sports around the world . I suspect it's because they've reached their zenith .

Still reckon we've got a bit of catching up to do but it seems a lot of things are in place right now .

Cheers

Interesting Macca. Kind of a "spend versus results/return" issue. I'm sure there would be specialist studies showing that you get a certain amount of bang for your buck, up to a point in a team sport sense. Then after that point, your return on the spend (ie., improved ladder position over a rollling 3 year comparative period or whatever) starts to deminish percentage wise. I don't know about it not being effective though. I still think if you spend enough $, and use it wisely, it will pay off at some stage.

A bit like a formula 1 race team. And this is just a hypothetical....don't hold me to any of these numbers please lol. The mininum spend is (or was) something like $25 mil per annum to get a team on the track and racing....but possibly finishing somewhere near bottom during the year, say around 10th to 12th (team wise). However, say by spending only another $5 mil to make the total spend $30 mil, your team should be able to match it with teams around 6th to 8th (improvement wise) assuming you have 2 reasonably qualified and skilled drivers. An improvement of at least 2 positions on the prior position for $5 mil spent. However afterwards, any 1 second gain per lap, and approximately 1 step up in position on the team's finishing position for the year, again costs another $5 mil (or something disproportionate when compared to the initial spend versus amount gained).

In other words, to reach the pinacle (ie., GF and hopefully a cup), dissproportionate amounts of $$ need to be spent versus....

The base minimum required to get the team on the park (and keep them there) and maybe a small increase on this initial base amount, which still only sees your team move up from the bottom into the middle or lower middle rungs.

So we would need a massive spend, maybe double (or something around the Pies $70 mil budget), to see our team make the GF in say 5 years? Just speculating. I really have no idea of course. Just extending on your subject matter.

Edited March 18, 201213 yr by Rusty Nails

Interesting Macca. Kind of a "spend versus results/return" issue. I'm sure there would be specialist studies showing that you get a certain amount of bang for your buck, up to a point in a team sport sense. Then after that point, your return on the spend (ie., improved ladder position over a rollling 3 year comparative period or whatever) starts to deminish percentage wise. I don't know about it not being effective though. I still think if you spend enough $, and use it wisely, it will pay off at some stage.

A bit like a formula 1 race team. And this is just a hypothetical....don't hold me to any of these numbers please lol. The mininum spend is (or was) something like $25 mil per annum to get a team on the track and racing....but possibly finishing somewhere near bottom during the year, say around 10th to 12th (team wise). However, say by spending only another $5 mil to make the total spend $30 mil, your team should be able to match it with teams around 6th to 8th (improvement wise) assuming you have 2 reasonably qualified and skilled drivers. An improvement of at least 2 positions on the prior position for $5 mil spent. However afterwards, any 1 second gain per lap, and approximately 1 step up in position on the team's finishing position for the year, again costs another $5 mil (or something disproportionate when compared to the initial spend versus amount gained).

In other words, to reach the pinacle (ie., GF and hopefully a cup), dissproportionate amounts of $$ need to be spent versus....

The base minimum required to get the team on the park (and keep them there) and maybe a small increase on this initial base amount, which still only sees your team move up from the bottom into the middle or lower middle rungs.

So we would need a massive spend, maybe double (or something around the Pies $70 mil budget), to see our team make the GF in say 5 years? Just speculating. I really have no idea of course. Just extending on your subject matter.

Yeah , I see your point . You might think you've reached you're zenith but I guess there's always something else to spend money on .

I'm confilcted by my own "old school" mentality . I recognise and understand the new but...... It's the "let's just get on with it" or "there's no excuses" or even "is all this science gonna make us win more contested ball ? " , etc etc attitude that makes me question it all . Happy to proved incorrect by the way .

Who's to say that practising in a less than perfect enviroment isn't more beneficial . It might make players are bit tougher mentally . Do we really need to lay everything on ? Comfort zones can be dangerous places . Can too much FD spend have the effect of "pampering" the players too much ?

We , at Melbourne haven't been in this situation as we've only recently moved from the Junction oval so it doesn't really apply to us . I've also heard some "experts" question the amount of advantage the whole "Arizona" thing gives to Collingwood .

I think it would be interesting if somebody who knows about big sports overseas could comment here on whether "too much spend" in the preparation of contests can have a detrimental effect .

It's interesting that in the Olympics most pundits reckon extra millions spent equals extra gold medals . But often these sports are individual pursuits . In team sport there's still that attitude of "We're gonna do it hard and tough on the track so that when we get to real stuff we'll be ready" .

I liked your post RN , you made some good points

Cheers

Edited March 18, 201213 yr by Macca

Why not finish last and pick up 1 2 3?

I strongly oppose such a proposition.

However, if we went down this path, i hope everyone realises we would be able to draft Viney with our 2nd round pick. If we finished last (apart from me going nuts at all and sundry at the club), no team could outbid us with a first round pick for Viney, we would have to use our next pick. Given that we don't have to use CP's on F/S selections, that would mean we'd have pick 1, 2 (compo pick directly after first pick), 15ish (mid first-round compo pick) and then 2nd round pick (Viney).

If done right (cough Dean Bailey, Prendergast, cough cough), we could effectively be able to re-build the re-build. But if we did finish last,we'd need more than high picks to save this club.

I'll be happy with Viney as our first rounder, the 2 high CP's, and another decent player with our second round pick. Can't get too greedy now can we!

I know this is a touchy subject for some - but I preferred the old Dr Who... (IWUAEHIIUE)

(I Would Use An Emoticon Here If I Used Emoticons)

I have a feeling this is going to be more "touchy" for you than it is for me - but here goes anyway!!!

Once a "Dandy Boy" always a "Dandy Boy" - Once a "Broadmeadows Boy" always a "Broadmeadows Boy"

This club needs to become an inclusive club not an exclusive club - "Dida I spell that alright for u"

I'm sure you will comeback with a beautiful articulate answer, call me a fool, call me a child ... tell me to toddle off elsewhere, possibly even ban me.

But the kids & the fans are rejecting your little "private school boys" club in numbers & have been for many years.

You toddle off to the "snow" & I will toddle off to Auskick - might even wear my Collingwood jumper, or my Hawks jumper or my Tigers jumper.

"Success" only lasts a season long - your culture lasts a life time.

Now back to the topic " where are we honestly at" - Can we handle the honesty. I dont think we can - well not today at least.

Edited March 18, 201213 yr by Dr Who

hey numbskulls, start winning some games of footy and things like supporter bases will sort themselves out, can't believe some of you intellectuals are rabbiting on about the melb/hawks merger, it's 2012 guys!!

I hope you are right. But I fear the consequences if your not. I hope winning will solve everything.

I have a feeling this is going to be more "touchy" for you than it is for me - but here goes anyway!!!

Once a "Dandy Boy" always a "Dandy Boy" - Once a "Broadmeadows Boy" always a "Broadmeadows Boy"

This club needs to become an inclusive club not an exclusive club - "Dida I spell that alright for u"

I'm sure you will comeback with a beautiful articulate answer, call me a fool, call me a child ... tell me to toddle off elsewhere, possibly even ban me.

But the kids & the fans are rejecting your little "private school boys" club in numbers & have been for many years.

You toddle off to the "snow" & I will toddle off to Auskick - might even wear my Collingwood jumper, or my Hawks jumper or my Tigers jumper.

"Success" only lasts a season long - your culture lasts a life time.

Now back to the topic " where are we honestly at" - Can we handle the honesty. I dont think we can - well not today at least.

Huh?

You got a lot of hate from a one line post you 'liked'...

And you have three club jumpers? WTF?

I'm sorry, you have lost me.

IMO the preseason has been disappointing and if we don’t beat Brisbane without Brown the alarm bells will be ringing.

Three points:

The MFC is misguided if it thinks the reason we are where we are is because of player development. We have drafted poorly with our high picks. Going forward, given our limited resources we should be investing more heavily into: 1) paying 100% of the salary cap by frontloading the contracts of our best young players; and 2) boosting our recruiting department. (IMO the most valuable people in football are the best recruiters.) Players make coaches, not the other way around. IMO, given our limited budget, we should cut back on the resources applied to assistant coaching and fitness science and spend the money elsewhere.

I don’t believe Neeld’s ‘kick it long down the line’ game plan is the most effective method to beat the press. IMO the best method is the one Clarkson is adopting. Play on immediately upon gaining possession if you have the chance. Otherwise, if forced into a slow play, use short kicks to maintain possession and avoid getting too close to the boundary. The reason for avoiding the boundary is that it makes the press more effective and limits your options to kicking long down the line. (So you need to win three one on one contests to kick a goal.) One thing Neeld is right about is the importance of getting some size and grunt into the midfield.

Demonlanders (and now the coach it seems) love getting into our senior players undeservedly. It’s not their fault they were drafted to the MFC. Players like Green, Bruce and Davey have never had the ability to be an Ablett, Judd or a Swan. They have each had good careers for us and it is not their fault they haven’t delivered team success. They just haven’t had the support around them (because we have drafted so poorly).

Huh?

You got a lot of hate from a one line post you 'liked'...

And you have three club jumpers? WTF?

I'm sorry, you have lost me.

Simple explanation really... symptomatic of the stress associated with being a Time Lord.