Who will be our elite 5 for the 2014 Demon flag?

[rpfc 27,573]

Hell, I'll nit-pick... the question was "Who will be our elite 5 for the 2014 Demon flag?"

Touche.

Although, in my defence - that title begs the question...

What if we don't have elite players in 2014...

[nutbean 8,837]

Where did I say he will be elite?

I said that I think Viney will be a "top line" player by then. He will effectively have 3 years of senior footy under his belt when you include this year at Casey (has this been sanctioned?)..

My hopes are high nutbean because that's all I have to work with at the moment.

Interesting that you're already classifying Viney with Trengove when he's yet to play a senior game but in the same breath asking me to reflect on the comparison of whether he will be elite.

I will rephrase - top 5.

I think it is a big ask for Viney to be top 5 in his second year.

I maintain that if he is top 5 in his second year then we are doing something wrong.

Trengove finished 5th in the Bluey last year. This is not a go at Trengove but a real go at players who should have been well in front of him( Davey ? Green? ).

Have a look at Geelong - not a youngster in their first 10 in their B&F

Have a look at Collingwood the year before.

If Viney is in our top 5 in the Bluey in 2014 I will suggest we may be in some strife because players whoshould form part of the premiership nucleus obviously havent come on.

Edited March 7, 2012 by nutbean

[rpfc 27,573]

I'm not too sure Rivers is in our "current" top 5 rpfc?

Came second in the Bluey, has some very good games back there in 2011.

[rpfc 27,573]

If Viney is in our top 5 in the Bluey in 2014 I will suggest we may be in some strife.

I reckon Selwood came straight in was arguably among Geelong's top 6-8 players in 2007.

Viney doesn't have a high bar to get to, and I just see him as ready to go.

We will see.

[Demonator 93]

Came second in the Bluey, has some very good games back there in 2011.

Yeah, can't disagree with you there, but still don't think I'd have him in my top 5. I actually think I'm struggling to sneak him into my top 22?!

[Jordie_tackles 354]

I will rephrase - top 5.

I think it is a big ask for Viney to be top 5 in his second year.

I maintain that if he is top 5 in his second year then we are doing something wrong.

Trengove finished 5th in the Bluey last year. This is not a go at Trengove but a real go at players who should have been well in front of him( Davey ? Green? ).

Have a look at Geelong - not a youngster in their first 10 in their B&F

Have a look at Collingwood the year before.

If Viney is in our top 5 in the Bluey in 2014 I will suggest we may be in some strife because players whoshould form part of the premiership nucleus obviously havent come on.

I think a similar event may be where Selwood finished in his second year? i dont know

edit -

Selwood's year, during which he averaged more than 25 disposals, 4 marks, and 4 tackles per game, was also rewarded with a top five finish in the Carji Greeves Medal (Geelong's Best and Fairest).

in his second season, in a team that won a premiership the year prior and year after.....

But we all know the point you were making, all depends how good any players season is that finishes 5th

Edited March 7, 2012 by Jordie_tackles

[rpfc 27,573]

Yeah, can't disagree with you there, but still don't think I'd have him in my top 5. I actually think I'm struggling to sneak him into my top 22?!

I know where you are coming from but given the right role, he could be very useful in the next few years. Great footy IQ and strong mark - get him into Nick Maxwell's role and he should do well.

[McQueen 17,864]

I will rephrase - top 5.

I think it is a big ask for Viney to be top 5 in his second year.

I maintain that if he is top 5 in his second year then we are doing something wrong.

Trengove finished 5th in the Bluey last year. This is not a go at Trengove but a real go at players who should have been well in front of him( Davey ? Green? ).

Have a look at Geelong - not a youngster in their first 10 in their B&F

Have a look at Collingwood the year before.

If Viney is in our top 5 in the Bluey in 2014 I will suggest we may be in some strife because players whoshould form part of the premiership nucleus obviously havent come on.

If Viney is going to play on the ball and dish out similar agression and ball winning ability at AFL level as to what we've seen in TAC cup, there is every chance he will poll very well at the 2014 count.

I'm hoping that by then, at least half of the team is competing for the top 5 vote getters.

[Demonator 93]

I know where you are coming from but given the right role, he could be very useful in the next few years. Great footy IQ and strong mark - get him into Nick Maxwell's role and he should do well.

Yeah, you could be right. I certainly hope so, and before you even mentioned that fact, the only role I could see him playing is that Nick Maxwell role that you refer too - the loose man/third man up in a contest throughout the back half.

[The Chazz 4,077]

I know where you are coming from but given the right role, he could be very useful in the next few years. Great footy IQ and strong mark - get him into Nick Maxwell's role and he should do well.

Collingwood wouldn't want to get rid of Nick and replace him with Jared.

You only have to see how they treated Rivers last year to see what an opposition club thinks of him...

[BIG JIM 508]

Really ? I like Nathan Jones and I liked his game on Saturday but really ?

Yes really i think he will be a gun just IMO he has really started to make me excited

Edited March 7, 2012 by BIG JIM

[BIG JIM 508]

I think alot of posters think players that are over 23 cant become A grade players thats rubbish.

[jayceebee31 671]

I don't mind if it is Dangerfield, Viney, Trengove,Gawn,Watts or any other player/s,I think we only need to pick up one more class mid and we are premiership material.I also think Sylvia will become an elite player this year,

[Biffen 12,372]

Pendlebury ,Clark ,Watts ,Trengrove ,Swallow

[thaipantsman 180]

There is a lot of talk on this forum about the Demons having a good, even list, but lacks the elite 5 players capable of turning a finals series into a flag. If we are going to win the 2014 or 2015 flag, we need to find them. 3-4 of them need to come from our current list, and that means turning young promising players into stand-outs in the mould of a Franklin, Bartel, Pendlebury, Judd, or Hodge.

To be honest, I don't see where they might emerge from.

The players I think have the potential to do so are: Watts, Morton, Trengove, Grimes, Frawley, Jurrah, Sylvia, Garland, and eventually, from all we know, Jack Viney.

Of the older players, I would put Clark and Jones in the very very good category, but not elite.

Of the veterans, I think only Jamar could be considered to be approaching elite status.

If I had to put the first list into the best POTENTIAL players to turn into elite in 3 years time (in order) I think it would be:

Watts

Viney

Grimes

Jurrah

Frawley

The list though doesn't fill me with confidence.

A couple of left field candidates?

Cook, Gawn, Bleese. At least the first two are big: cook has exceptional skills for someone that size, Gawn has the potential to dominate a game due to his size and agility. Bleese for his line breaking pace.

I don't see a gorilla though in the manner of a Neitz, Schwartz, Cloke or Franklin, and we would need one to win a flag. Perhaps they think Clark is the one. Somehow I doubt it. He never dominated games for the Lions.

None of this fills me with a great deal of confidence I must say

Big Carl was also a Gorilla!!

Don't forget Melbourne made it into 2000 Grand Final without the types of GUN players you suggested. What about the "champion team" doing it for us rather that the "team of champions" There is a load of potential there Biffo. Which ones will come through?? Not sure but off the top of my head without consulting the team list here goes...not in order.. Blease, Clarke, Grimes, Frawley, Gysberts, Howe, Jurrah, Martin, Petterd, McKenzie, Moloney , Sylvia, Trengove, Watts....Potentials from Gawn, J. Viney and I'm not giving up on Leigh Williams.. Get Allen Jackovich to make a comeback would also be good! We need a guy that LOVES to kick a goal...

[thaipantsman 180]

the elite 5 SORRY!!

AS FOLLOWS

CLARKE, JURRAH, TRENGOVE, WATTS, BLEASE.

[thaipantsman 180]

Jones is good!

[Roost It 1,434]

If we have 5 elite players we'll win 3 maybe 4 Cups

Judd is elite

Ablett is elite

Franklin is elite

We have no one in Judd or Ablett's orbit. It was going to be Scully but apparently he left

Watts may have the brains, skill and body but does he have that gut burning desire, time will tell

For mine he's the only 1 on our list with truly elite potential

I think Trengove, Grimes, Frawley and possibly Sylvia can be A graders

Then there's the maybe A or very close to in Blease, Morton, Garland and at a stretch Jurrah.

I do think our bottom 6 will strong putting us in with a chance for number 13

Viney is a total unknown at this level so I'm leaving him out

Edited March 7, 2012 by Roost It

[The Chazz 4,077]

If we have 5 elite players we'll win 3 maybe 4 Cups

Judd is elite

Ablett is elite

Franklin is elite

We have no one in Judd or Ablett's orbit. It was going to be Scully but apparently he left

Watts may have the brains, skill and body but does he have that gut burning desire, time will tell

For mine he's the only 1 on our list with truly elite potential

I think Trengove, Grimes, Frawley and possibly Sylvia can be A graders

Then there's the maybe A or very close to in Blease, Morton, Garland and at a stretch Jurrah.

I do think our bottom 6 will strong putting us in with a chance for number 13

Viney is a total unknown at this level so I'm leaving him out

Very good post Roost. I have to ask, where do you rate Scarlett? Without doubt he is one of the best full backs that I've seen in 30+ years - I can't see why Frawls can't get to the same category (not saying he will be better than Scarlett, but he may be the 2nd or 3rd best full back of recent times).

[hardtack 10,127]

If we have 5 elite players we'll win 3 maybe 4 Cups

Even though I corrected rpfc over this, I think he was probably correct when he said "our best 5" - I get the feeling that the OP was probably intending the word "elite" to be used as the "best 5" relative to the rest of our playing list.

[nutbean 8,837]

I'm hoping that by then, at least half of the team is competing for the top 5 vote getters.

My point exactly

[Little Goffy 12,711]

In a way I reject the premise of requiring 5 'elite' players to win a premiership. People get called elite once they play well in premiership teams.

That said, there's no doubt that they are there - a product of elite development environments, an elite training ethic, and elite standard of teamwork. And sometimes, just being freakishly talented and/or dedicated.

Anyway, I di a little experiment to test my thoughts - I went through the last decade's GF teams and picked out a 22 from that second tier, the 'really good' players, who I think are so essential. These are not Chris Judd, or Ablett, or even Pendulbury. Some of them have even had pretty bad stretches of form. But you put this group together and who could stop them... which in turn means, how many of them would be called elite?

Here we go:

F: L. Davis B. Lade D. Bradshaw

HF: S. Wellingham C.Mooney R. O'keefe

C: A. Embley S. Grant J. Kelly

HB: T. Keneally S. Fisher G. Birchall

B: S. Wellman D. Wakelin D. Hardwick

Foll: B. McDonald B. Kirk S. Woewodin

Some of these have Best & Fairest wins, even a Brownlow. Many have All-Australian selections to their name. All have delivered at elite levels at vital moments. But there's no Pavlich, Brown, Ablett, Swan, Judd, Cousins, Cox, Hodge, Franklin, Goodes, Voss, Buckley, or even Grimes, Trengove, Frawley, Watts, and Petterd.

Anyway, if there's one thing I think we are missing it is the ultra-creative midfielder. Maybe Blease will develop that way, maybe one of the really young kids we haven't seen anything of yet. Maybe one of 2012 National Draft Pick 10 (mid first round) or pick 15 (immediately after our normal first round pick) will deliver that. Dare I say it, we need the Akermanis to go with the Voss, Black, and Lappin...

[Sideshow Bob 2,163]

Watching crows v pies.... Dangermouse looks to have taken another step - throw the kitchen sink at him and do whatever to get the trade done

[rpfc 27,573]

Watching crows v pies.... Dangermouse looks to have taken another step - throw the kitchen sink at him and do whatever to get the trade done

Yeah, he's value.

And I loved Danger Mouse!

[Macca 16,173]

Jack , Jack , Jack , Jack and Colin !

Fitzy just misses out .

Cheers