Training - Monday 28th November, 2011

[hardtack 10,500]

I hate saying this and I am often critical of people who say this (therefore I am a hypocrite), but I can't but feel that the fact that Jurrah is Indigenous that the whole Jurrah being "lazy" thing is overplayed due to stereotypes that exist.

No one has said this, but I can't help but feel undercurrent is there.

I hope you are wrong, but sadly I get the feeling there may be an element of truth to what you say... the only other comments I have really noticed in a similar vein lately are directed at Aussie in the Manson thread. In fact, I don't particularly like this idea that the indigenous members of the team need to be regarded as being apart from the rest of the team.

[H_T 3,043]

The discussion of Jurrah is interesting. When someone first plays for us we look to see what they can do. Jurrah could do a lot and we fell in love. The longer a player plays the more we notice his weaknesses. Jurrah has a few and some are starting to doubt, perhaps fairly.

Many have become familiar with what he can do and don't rate it as highly as they did. That's a mistake.

Agree Fan.

I also think that because of Jurrah's highlight reel from 2009-10 (~17 games or so) was so good and exciting, he set the bar reasonably high for a 1st year player. It could be easy for many to assume and expect more improvement; more excitement. Yet in a year where the team - let's face it - has struggled in many facets, consistency, gameplan, confidence, etc he still manages 40 goals. And in a negative year when the teams performances are highlighted, many players endeavour and hardness is questionned and poster(s) highlight soft tendencies and instances of individuals.

With the way Neeld is addressing the structure, it can only help players like Jurrah more I believe. He will still need to improve in other areas such as defensive pressure and harrassing and try to be more physical more often.

I don't think I rate him any lower after 2011. He's there to kick goals, take some marks and provide an option by making things difficult for the opposition. He will continue to do that.

[jacey 333]

I hate saying this and I am often critical of people who say this (therefore I am a hypocrite), but I can't but feel that the fact that Jurrah is Indigenous that the whole Jurrah being "lazy" thing is overplayed due to stereotypes that exist.

No one has said this, but I can't help but feel undercurrent is there.

I don't think it's a race thing.

I think Jurrah doesn't work as hard defensively as offensively but i thought of that too for Maric.

It's not a case of black or white. It's a case of them not working both ways.

Also why is Gysbert so far back in his fitness? He came to the club as a decent runner and i don't recall any recent injuries?

[Chook 15,003]

I hope you are wrong, but sadly I get the feeling there may be an element of truth to what you say... the only other comments I have really noticed in a similar vein lately are directed at Aussie in the Manson thread. In fact, I don't particularly like this idea that the indigenous members of the team need to be regarded as being apart from the rest of the team.

Colin Sylvia is also bashed for not being consistent or defensive enough. Ricky Petterd copped his share too, before turning his defensive efforts around. So generally everyone takes criticism for this kind of thing if they deserve it. Brad Green would know that better than anyone.

I do, however, agree with your observation that stereotypes exist around indigenous players. I can't think of many who haven't been labelled 'exciting' or 'fast' during their careers, simply because of their skin colour. For example, Austin Wonaeamirri and Neville Jetta both regularly get described as having lots of pace, when neither of those guys are very quick at all.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Chook

[drdrake 3,151]

If we turn back the clock 12 months Bailey and the club were pushing Liam Jurrah to the media and members to continue building the Hype around our club. The isuue we faced through the season Liam was pitted against the best defenders in the competition with little support or protection. By mid year he looked done flat, maybe the management of Liam could have been handled better with a few more rests through out the year.

On his fitness, we have to manage him. I have no issues with him working on a dedicated training program designed for Liam. We all know his ability and the last thing we want to do is push him to hard if his body isn't ready for it. As long as he is ready to join the main group by January he will be Ok and considering he will go into 2012 as our third or fourth forward and not our primary focal point get ready for an exciting year.

Edited November 30, 2011 by drdrake

[McQueen 17,864]

I hate saying this and I am often critical of people who say this (therefore I am a hypocrite), but I can't but feel that the fact that Jurrah is Indigenous that the whole Jurrah being "lazy" thing is overplayed due to stereotypes that exist.

No one has said this, but I can't help but feel undercurrent is there.

Please don't take offence to this post.

I think you're being too sensitive and inadvertently supporting the stereo-typing you speak of. This forum, in the time I've been a member, has left no player unscathed from being labelled lazy, under-performing, slow, no second effort etc..

To me it seems that when the indigenous boys cop a bit of stick some people rush to their defence and play the race card. How do you expect them to be treated equally when you don't give them that opportunity to begin with.

Along with Hardtack, I thought the comments on Aussie in the other thread were in poor taste but imagine if it was directed at a caucasion player? Would it have drawn the same criticism?

Yes there is an obvious distinction between cultures and skin colours but FCS, I want to see the same effort by all players on the training track and on game day. 100%.

I'm confident LJ will come out a much better player from this pre season and he will be consistently damaging next season.

[Jordie_tackles 354]

My take would be for style of play Johnson Petterd >>>>>>Jurrah

Goal scoring ability Johnson Jurrah >>>>>>Petterd

On Jurrah if we can get Clark, Watts and Howe to be main focus's ahead of him then the opposition will struggle to match up on him, or if they do it means that Howe or Watts will expose another defender, this is why Clark is such a good recruitment.

Also i said before that Jurrah had 11 goal assist this year eqaul 4th for the MFC so you can say he contributed 50+ goals for the year.....

Also people who are questioning about why he is running laps, im sure it is because he isnt fit, nothing against him but he has had 1 preseason under a soft coach who may have been soft on him. If he can last this pre-season under Neeld and Misson we may see a Jurrrah who is twice as fit.....that is dangerous, also may help him get to more contests and defend more often if he feels he can run that much more.

He wont be running as many laps after Christmas imo, has to stop somewhere, at least i hope so for Jurahs sake haha

[Axis of Bob 11,568]

How can you have 'greater than' symbols for style of play? How can you quantify the unquantifiable?

That is aside from the fact that you have somehow equated the style of the mercurial, sublimely skilled Johnson with the honest, scrappy, courageous Petterd, rather than the mercurial, sublimely skilled Jurrah.

Very strange.

[hardtack 10,500]

Along with Hardtack, I thought the comments on Aussie in the other thread were in poor taste but imagine if it was directed at a caucasion player? Would it have drawn the same criticism?

Actually, I think I would have made the same criticism regardless of ethnic/indigenous/whatever you want to call it, background. Yes, I cited it as an example here (because it could construed as being "race" related), but in that thread, I was mostly objecting to the treatment he was getting seemingly for no other reason than no longer being a part of the club. One rule I will always firmly adhere to, and that is you never kick a man when he is down.

[Weedster 174]

If we turn back the clock 12 months Bailey and the club were pushing Liam Jurrah to the media and members to continue building the Hype around our club. The isuue we faced through the season Liam was pitted against the best defenders in the competition with little support or protection. By mid year he looked done flat, maybe the management of Liam could have been handled better with a few more rests through out the year.

On his fitness, we have to manage him. I have no issues with him working on a dedicated training program designed for Liam. We all know his ability and the last thing we want to do is push him to hard if his body isn't ready for it. As long as he is ready to join the main group by January he will be Ok and considering he will go into 2012 as our third or fourth forward and not our primary focal point get ready for an exciting year.

Some common sense at last ! in the best of possible circumstances let's hope Liam is attracting the second or third tall and is not being called on to be our biggest forward target. Enter Clark, Sellar, Martin, Jamar without a total focus on Watts & Jurrah

[PartyTimeJohnny 537]

I hate saying this and I am often critical of people who say this (therefore I am a hypocrite), but I can't but feel that the fact that Jurrah is Indigenous that the whole Jurrah being "lazy" thing is overplayed due to stereotypes that exist.

No one has said this, but I can't help but feel undercurrent is there.

People were waiting a long time to stick the boot into him, but for a long time Liam gave them no chance to because he showed what a prodigy he was over and over again.

His form dropped along with about 28 other footballers at the end of this season,

Have no doubt, he will continue to amaze

even if some on here dont want him to

[Axis of Bob 11,568]

mephis:

he will continue to amaze

even if some on here dont want him to

People DON'T WANT Jurrah to succeed?

Seriously?

He's one of the most exciting talents in the AFL, he plays for our club, and you think that people don't want him to succeed??!?!

His backstory is one of the most incredible in the AFL, he's one of the most fun players to watch going around, yet you think that people don't want him to succeed?!?!?!?!?

We pinched him from under the nose of Collingwood, yet you still think that people don't want him to succeed?!?!?!?!?

Wow!

Please ..... why don't people want him to succeed?

Edited November 30, 2011 by Axis of Bob

[Pennant St Dee 13,030]

I hate saying this and I am often critical of people who say this (therefore I am a hypocrite), but I can't but feel that the fact that Jurrah is Indigenous that the whole Jurrah being "lazy" thing is overplayed due to stereotypes that exist. No one has said this, but I can't help but feel undercurrent is there.

I don't think the fact he is indigenous is the reason. It's his style of play, TJ was of the same ilk and Sylvia on a lesser note and do you remember Andrew Mcdougall pick 4 in National draft. laconic with talent to burn like the others. People expect LJ to grab a game by the scruff of the neck and win it off his own boot and with Aussie we remember the Freo comeback game and expected him to do that on a regular basis. Sometimes when you are so talented you don't have to work as hard as the others from a young age and that is where I think the issue is with supporters. But I believe what the club is doing with building his fitness base and increasing his aerobic capacity will benefit him greatly, he has the explosiveness and ability to create something out of nothing so I would not be criticising the club or LJ at this stage without knowing the facts behind his training programme

Edited November 30, 2011 by Pennant St Dee

[old dee 23,660]

Please don't take offence to this post.

I think you're being too sensitive and inadvertently supporting the stereo-typing you speak of. This forum, in the time I've been a member, has left no player unscathed from being labelled lazy, under-performing, slow, no second effort etc..

To me it seems that when the indigenous boys cop a bit of stick some people rush to their defence and play the race card. How do you expect them to be treated equally when you don't give them that opportunity to begin with.

Along with Hardtack, I thought the comments on Aussie in the other thread were in poor taste but imagine if it was directed at a caucasion player? Would it have drawn the same criticism?

Yes there is an obvious distinction between cultures and skin colours but FCS, I want to see the same effort by all players on the training track and on game day. 100%.

I'm confident LJ will come out a much better player from this pre season and he will be consistently damaging next season.

I am struggling with what is poor taste about suggesting AW is over weight and was quite often in his 4 years at the MFC

[hardtack 10,500]

I am struggling with what is poor taste about suggesting AW is over weight and was quite often in his 4 years at the MFC

Well, that's not really surprising as you were the one that made said comment :-) Yes, he has struggled with weight and injury issues, but it is one thing to say that a player had weight issues and another to make a mockery of him - I just felt that he is one player who doesn't really deserve that treatment. No big deal.

[daisycutter 29,593]

I am struggling with what is poor taste about suggesting AW is over weight and was quite often in his 4 years at the MFC

Don't sweat it OD.....too many posters have a PC hair-trigger over-reaction

[PartyTimeJohnny 537]

Please ..... why don't people want him to succeed?

I don't know Bob! Why!

[Axis of Bob 11,568]

Is my sarcasm meter not turned on, or are you actually suggesting that people don't want him to succeed because he is aboriginal?

[PartyTimeJohnny 537]

Is my sarcasm meter not turned on, or are you actually suggesting that people don't want him to succeed because he is aboriginal?

Never mentioned his race Bob. Ever. Nor did it ever come into MY argument.

My argument was based on a third year player who impressed for 2 and a half years, but when the club he was playing for fell into disrepute, began to lack form.

During his brief lull, did the harsh criticism begin. "labelled lazy, under-performing, slow, no second effort" as seen above on numerous occasions." criticisms which i believe were extremely unfair in a team that as a whole were under performing. It suggests to me that people want him to under perform, as some are so quick to write him off.

clear Bob?

[hardtack 10,500]

Don't sweat it OD.....too many posters have a PC hair-trigger over-reaction

Again, hardly a surprising response seeing as you were the other poster alluded to :-) Oh, and there was nothing PC in my comment... it was purely about respect.

[daisycutter 29,593]

Never mentioned his race Bob. Ever. Nor did it ever come into MY argument.

My argument was based on a third year player who impressed for 2 and a half years, but when the club he was playing for fell into disrepute, began to lack form.

During his brief lull, did the harsh criticism begin. "labelled lazy, under-performing, slow, no second effort" as seen above on numerous occasions." criticisms which i believe were extremely unfair in a team that as a whole were under performing. It suggests to me that people want him to under perform, as some are so quick to write him off.

clear Bob?

Absolute rubbish. I don't know one single melbourne supporter who wants to write off LJ. or a just waiting for him to under perform

Everybody loves him and just want him to play to his potential

The criticism of some aspects of his playing has a reasonable basis of justification

What people want is for him to fix up these aspects and be a brighter star - quite the opposite of what you are saying

There is no conspiracy here memphis so stop looking

[McQueen 17,864]

Never mentioned his race Bob. Ever. Nor did it ever come into MY argument.

My argument was based on a third year player who impressed for 2 and a half years, but when the club he was playing for fell into disrepute, began to lack form.

During his brief lull, did the harsh criticism begin. "labelled lazy, under-performing, slow, no second effort" as seen above on numerous occasions." criticisms which i believe were extremely unfair in a team that as a whole were under performing. It suggests to me that people want him to under perform, as some are so quick to write him off.

clear Bob?

You have taken this from my post out of context, mephis. It does in fact allude to the whole team under-performing.

[daisycutter 29,593]

Again, hardly a surprising response seeing as you were the other poster alluded to :-) Oh, and there was nothing PC in my comment... it was purely about respect.

well lets agree to disagree. i thought you were grandstanding. there was nothing vicious in the 'jokes'

[McQueen 17,864]

I am struggling with what is poor taste about suggesting AW is over weight and was quite often in his 4 years at the MFC

Save them for Phil $cully

Well, that's not really surprising as you were the one that made said comment :-) Yes, he has struggled with weight and injury issues, but it is one thing to say that a player had weight issues and another to make a mockery of him - I just felt that he is one player who doesn't really deserve that treatment. No big deal.

Nothing to add.

Don't sweat it OD.....too many posters have a PC hair-trigger over-reaction

Oh Please..

[Axis of Bob 11,568]

mephis, if you are claiming that people want Jurrah not to succeed then you either misread the situation completely or are simply trying to agitate based on some mysterious agenda.

Jurrah was all of the things that you mentioned at various times this year and his previous years (except 'slow', which you must have made up). All of those things relate to his weakness, which is his poor endurance. 'Lazy' - at times, especially defensively. 'No second effort' - often happened. 'Under-performing' - based on his huge talent he often did under-perform based on everyone's high expectations of him.

High expectations are not given to players people don't think are any good.

It was, and remains, a very strange post. Hence my continued/ing confusion.