Where will these guys play next year?

[dees_rule_4eva 22]

I agree Bate's gone. He is clearly not in our best 22, and would gain greater opportunities elsewhere. For me, he is too slow and his skills just aren't up to AFL level. With young Lucas Cook being groomed for another KP up forward, and Howe already in the team, there is just no room for him.

Ricky P signed a new contract last year, he isnt going anywhere. Paying the price for a disgraceful effort against Carlton, but he'll learn his lesson and be back in the team soon enough. Best 22.

Warnock, I wouldnt mind keeping for insurance, but he must only play when we are cruelled by injury. His decision making at AFL level just isn't up to scratch.

Morton I cant make up my mind. I despise the sort of outside footy he plays, but the signs are there in the last few weeks that he is starting to make progress in that area. A wait and see for me.

[Nasher 33,133]

Dunn - elsewhere

Bate - elsewhere

Petterd - MFC

Morton - MFC

+1.

[Striker475 696]

How about...

Dunn + Bate for a late first rounder (say around pick 11) and two of the 17yrold picks, one of which is used for JV? (with GWS)

Edited June 12, 2011 by Striker475

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,762]

I'm a strong advocate of keeping Warnock. With the inevitable injuries that come with the modern game, you can never have too many quality defenders.

I think the problem with keeping Warnock as insurance is that he is too good. I understand why he doesn't slot into our talented backline week in week out but he is far too good for the VFL.

[rpfc 27,591]

If we keep Warnock as depth (ugh) then who do we delist?

Bate, Dunn, and Warnock are vulnerable and on the list. Remember Newton is a rookie.

Other vulnerable players are Maric, Fitzpatrick, and Strauss.

And Nicholson and Evans are pushing for spots...

[titan_uranus 22,673]

How about...

Dunn + Bate for a late first rounder (say around pick 11) and two of the 17yrold picks, one of which is used for JV? (with GWS)

Who in their right mind would give up a first round draft pick for Dunn and Bate? I wouldn't give up a second round pick for them.

If we keep Warnock as depth (ugh) then who do we delist?

Bate, Dunn, and Warnock are vulnerable and on the list. Remember Newton is a rookie.

Other vulnerable players are Maric, Fitzpatrick, and Strauss.

And Nicholson and Evans are pushing for spots...

Warnock as depth isn't as silly as you seem to think. If we let him go, then an injury to one of Garland, Rivers or Frawley (especially Frawley) puts us in a quandary. I know he's not fantastic, but having a solid bodied player as back up isn't a bad thing.

Agree though that Bate, Dunn, Maric and Strauss are vulnerable. Strauss is doing his bit atm to keep himself on the list. Maric needs to work his way back into the side, it would be worrying for him if he can't get back in before the year's out (you would think he'd get a game at some point).

Surely Wonaeamirri is in a bit of danger too? Or is he contracted?

Doubt Fitzpatrick will come under too much scrutiny given he's a KPP who hasn't played yet (although I guess the fact he hasn't played yet may say something...).

[Striker475 696]

Who in their right mind would give up a first round draft pick for Dunn and Bate? I wouldn't give up a second round pick for them.

Warnock as depth isn't as silly as you seem to think. If we let him go, then an injury to one of Garland, Rivers or Frawley (especially Frawley) puts us in a quandary. I know he's not fantastic, but having a solid bodied player as back up isn't a bad thing.

Agree though that Bate, Dunn, Maric and Strauss are vulnerable. Strauss is doing his bit atm to keep himself on the list. Maric needs to work his way back into the side, it would be worrying for him if he can't get back in before the year's out (you would think he'd get a game at some point).

Surely Wonaeamirri is in a bit of danger too? Or is he contracted?

Doubt Fitzpatrick will come under too much scrutiny given he's a KPP who hasn't played yet (although I guess the fact he hasn't played yet may say something...).

Wonna is out of contract but I doubt he would play for anyone but the Dees at this stage. Certainly don't think he'd go to GWS, with the lack of local support he'd receive compared to the structures in place at MFC. He'd more likely retire.

[Nasher 33,133]

Warnock as depth isn't as silly as you seem to think. If we let him go, then an injury to one of Garland, Rivers or Frawley (especially Frawley) puts us in a quandary. I know he's not fantastic, but having a solid bodied player as back up isn't a bad thing.

My position has always been to delist anyone who will never be best 22, and Warnock will no longer ever be best 22. He provided good enough service while our better talls developed (Frawley and Garland) and I hold a considerable amount of respect for him as a player because of that, but his purpose has been served. Any game he gets now is just holding back the development of a Troy Davis or Tom McDonald.

Warnock right now is in the same position that I think Joel Macdonald will be in a year or two.

[rpfc 27,591]

Warnock as depth isn't as silly as you seem to think. If we let him go, then an injury to one of Garland, Rivers or Frawley (especially Frawley) puts us in a quandary. I know he's not fantastic, but having a solid bodied player as back up isn't a bad thing.

You can't replace your best players.

Garland is down, and where is Warnock?

There is your answer.

And Wonna is vulnerable sure, but he is a talent and should be given more time.

[Guest Artie Bucco]

We must remember that the rookie system is likely to be abolished.

But, assuming it isn't and the rules stay as they currently are...

- Bate and Dunn are both contracted for next year, so they'll either need to be traded or have their contract paid out, & maybe made a rookie, like what we did with Newton & Meesen.

- Same with Petterd and Strauss, for that matter, but I don't think they're likely candidates.

- Newton DOES count, because he was permanently upgraded to take Bruce's place; to delist him creates a free senior spot.

- out of contract at the end of 2011 are: Maric, Martin, Scully, Morton, Sylvia, Fitzpatrick, Gawn, Green and Wonaeamirri (Warnock unknown).

- going by that list, I'd have to say

- delist: Newton, Fitz (re-rookie), Warnock if possible, Wonaeamirri/Maric (re-rookie).

- trade: Warnock (if takers, and not eligible for de-listing), Dunn, Bate (managing to trade any of these will obviously affect the need to delist players).

Edited June 12, 2011 by Artie Bucco

[Guest Artie Bucco]

You can't replace your best players.

Garland is down, and where is Warnock?

There is your answer.

And Wonna is vulnerable sure, but he is a talent and should be given more time.

Considering the loss of Warnock wouldn't have an effect until next season, once Davis and McDonald have completed another preseason, I'd back them to be as good backup as what Warnock provides anyway.

[RalphiusMaximus 5,993]

- delist: Newton, Fitz (re-rookie), Warnock if possible, Wonaeamirri/Maric (re-rookie).

You are kidding right? The kid is going to be great. Are you basing this on the fact that he's injured himself and as such isn't appearing in the write-ups? He smashed AFL rucks last year playing for Casey. He's another guy who will take time to come on, especially with the CFS issue, but he will be worth the wait.

[mmc 18]

We have many runners but few of the size of Morton. Injuries have slowed his career down. He has a broad range of skills which will enable him to fulfil his elite status in time. Short sightedness to lose him. Very hard to expect to trade him for anything near his value. Petterd plays at the moment one of the hardest positions on the field small forward. When our team collapses the small forward suffers most and usually carries the can. On those occassions backmen can camoflage their poor game with inflated statistics because the game is all in their half. Petterd has abnormally good pace off the mark (how often does he mark mtrs in front of his opponent) and elite spring (a small who plays tall). Once again you don't find someone with these skills easily. He can be a multigoal scorer because he's got what a lot of others don't. In my op would be tragic/foolhardy to let him go. Very poor list management.

Fully agree. I think the FD know what they're doing- clearly these are players who will improve and take us forward, particularly Morton. Has a bit of the young Brendon Goddard in him- at season's end, put him in the gym, get a lock, put it on the gym door, lock it, throw away the key, slide 5 porterhouses under the door each day and tell him that's all he's getting til he puts 10kgs on, then we'll let him out. Is clearly talented, and he seems happy at the dees, at least according to his twitter. won't be going anywhere.

[Jaded No More 58,693]

You can't replace your best players.

Garland is down, and where is Warnock?

There is your answer.

And Wonna is vulnerable sure, but he is a talent and should be given more time.

I don't think Garland and Warnock are similar, and hence you couldn't cover one with the other.

Warnock played when Rivers was out injured. It made sense. Garland takes the most mobile, quickest tall in the team, a player that would kill both Rivers and Warnock.

There is merit in keeping him as depth, but I doubt he wants to play out the majority of his career with Casey, and given how nicely Tom McDonland is coming along, I think the club will trade him for a win-win deal. He'd get a game in plenty of defences. FFS Karmichael Hunt is getting a game in an AFL backline!

As for Bate and Dunn, I think after 7 years on the list, they, along with Newton, should be looking elsewhere. Bate definitely has the highest currency of the lot, but given we have to clear out at least 3 players from the list at the end of the year, I'd be pretty surprised if all three survives the cull. At least 2 will go. My bet is that Dunn will stay, and Bate (traded) and Newton (delisted/rookied elsewhere) will go.

Morton and Petterd are laughable suggestions btw. Petterd's worth would be minimal, and given we just signed him last year, I doubt he'd be going anywhere, and Morton was a top 5 pick 3 years ago. He has to do a lot wrong for the club to consider trading him, and so far, he hasn't.

[Guest Artie Bucco]

You are kidding right? The kid is going to be great. Are you basing this on the fact that he's injured himself and as such isn't appearing in the write-ups? He smashed AFL rucks last year playing for Casey. He's another guy who will take time to come on, especially with the CFS issue, but he will be worth the wait.

It's easy to criticise - give us your list then...

It's bloody hard to do!

I figured he has some of the least exposed form so we'd get away with delisting and then re-rookie-ing him without another club pouncing.

I'm assuming the rookie list will be abolished and those spots will be added to the senior list.

This will mean it's curtains for Newton, Tom McNamara and possibly Robbie Campbell, unless trades open up spots.

[Guest Artie Bucco]

I don't think Garland and Warnock are similar, and hence you couldn't cover one with the other.

Warnock played when Rivers was out injured. It made sense. Garland takes the most mobile, quickest tall in the team, a player that would kill both Rivers and Warnock.

There is merit in keeping him as depth, but I doubt he wants to play out the majority of his career with Casey, and given how nicely Tom McDonland is coming along, I think the club will trade him for a win-win deal. He'd get a game in plenty of defences. FFS Karmichael Hunt is getting a game in an AFL backline!

As for Bate and Dunn, I think after 7 years on the list, they, along with Newton, should be looking elsewhere. Bate definitely has the highest currency of the lot, but given we have to clear out at least 3 players from the list at the end of the year, I'd be pretty surprised if all three survives the cull. At least 2 will go. My bet is that Dunn will stay, and Bate (traded) and Newton (delisted/rookied elsewhere) will go.

Morton and Petterd are laughable suggestions btw. Petterd's worth would be minimal, and given we just signed him last year, I doubt he'd be going anywhere, and Morton was a top 5 pick 3 years ago. He has to do a lot wrong for the club to consider trading him, and so far, he hasn't.

Terry Wallace's "re-do" of the 2004 draft in retrospect on TAC Cup FutureStars earlier today gives me hope.

Can't recall exactly, but he had Dunn ~13 and Bate ~19.

Yeah, I know what people think of Terry's opinion, but he was a senior coach for a long time.

Matthew Knights was a senior coach too, and the Saints have been trying to recycle rejects for a few years.

It is possible to get value for guys like this.

[RickyJ45 392]

My position has always been to delist anyone who will never be best 22, and Warnock will no longer ever be best 22. He provided good enough service while our better talls developed (Frawley and Garland) and I hold a considerable amount of respect for him as a player because of that, but his purpose has been served. Any game he gets now is just holding back the development of a Troy Davis or Tom McDonald.

Warnock right now is in the same position that I think Joel Macdonald will be in a year or two.

It is becoming a widely held view that 'best 22' is an outdated concepte particuarly to get a premiership. Teams like Collingwood and Geelong

lead the way in showing that a 'best 28' is more realistic list for a premiership year given the likelihood of injuries. Indeed, Collingwood is demonstrating

this week against us -resting some of the best on the argument that they will need 28 at some stage to step up to high qualtiy football so it might as well be now

to test the mettle of the others.

When the team plays 'emotional' roller coster footy and the coach's head is on/off the chopping block on a weekly basis there is the temptation to dump players a bit faster.

Sure the pressure is on to perform but slabs of 2-3 game rotations are often better for developing the best 28 than the odd game every 5-6 weeks.

At he business end of the year, pick your best on a horses for courses basis.

So Bate and Warnock (maybe Morton) need to get that feeling/opportunity of being in the 28 and tested over a good slab of games, asked to play specific roles etc before we can realistic assess them

as being part of the 'best 28' going forward.

[Striker475 696]

It is becoming a widely held view that 'best 22' is an outdated concepte particuarly to get a premiership. Teams like Collingwood and Geelong

lead the way in showing that a 'best 28' is more realistic list for a premiership year given the likelihood of injuries. Indeed, Collingwood is demonstrating

this week against us -resting some of the best on the argument that they will need 28 at some stage to step up to high qualtiy football so it might as well be now

to test the mettle of the others.

When the team plays 'emotional' roller coster footy and the coach's head is on/off the chopping block on a weekly basis there is the temptation to dump players a bit faster.

Sure the pressure is on to perform but slabs of 2-3 game rotations are often better for developing the best 28 than the odd game every 5-6 weeks.

At he business end of the year, pick your best on a horses for courses basis.

So Bate and Warnock (maybe Morton) need to get that feeling/opportunity of being in the 28 and tested over a good slab of games, asked to play specific roles etc before we can realistic assess them

as being part of the 'best 28' going forward.

I'll admit that I agree with this, and I still think Bate and Dunn should be traded.

Firstly, to use your concept, my best XXVIII (as of right now, with labels attached):

Frawley

Rivers

Bartram

Garland

Tapscott

Bennell

Grimes

Warnock (old?)

Joel Mac

Scully

Trengove

Gysberts

McKenzie

Moloney

Sylvia

Jones

Davey (old)

Jurrah

Watts

Green (old)

Petterd

Jetta

Bate (?)

Dunn (?)

Jamar (old)

Martin

Gawn

Morton

But behind these guys you have Tom McDonald, Lucas Cook and Sam Blease lurking for sure.

The old players are unlikely to have a massive role in our tilt for a flag. Yes, they'll be there when we play finals again, but I doubt they will be part of a GF-winning 22.

Bate and Dunn are immediate questionmarks for me though. Bate is because of Lucas Cook, who by all accounts is coming along nicely at Casey. Dunn, however, is a 2-part one, and those two parts are James Strauss and Sam Blease. Yes, not a direct replacement, but once one (or both) start playing a lot then Tapscott is a prime contender to move forward. Who does he replace up there? Well now.

Edited June 12, 2011 by Striker475

[trout 385]

Has Warnock just turned into Fletcher, Scarlett or Frawley. No club is going to give up a first round pick or for that matter a second round pick for Warnock.

[dee-luded 2,958]

I think the problem with keeping Warnock as insurance is that he is too good. I understand why he doesn't slot into our talented backline week in week out but he is far too good for the VFL.

I think Warnock has been kept this year as insurance, but Howe, Cook and McDonald have come on quickly, and now Davis is storming currently, & has a big build for a kid. Solid.

[dee-luded 2,958]

Terry Wallace's "re-do" of the 2004 draft in retrospect on TAC Cup FutureStars earlier today gives me hope.

Can't recall exactly, but he had Dunn ~13 and Bate ~19.

Yeah, I know what people think of Terry's opinion, but he was a senior coach for a long time.

Matthew Knights was a senior coach too, and the Saints have been trying to recycle rejects for a few years.

It is possible to get value for guys like this.

Artie, Wallace rated them in his curent order today of where they should have gone in that draft. Not where their valued in tadays 'Open marketplace'. We'd be lucky to get a pick 38 for Bate or for Dunn, maybe around pick 35...

Morton might get us something around pick 11 to 18, ish. Or a handy trade for someone like Bastinac!!! Or a wish for a Lynch type???

Edited June 13, 2011 by dee-luded

[Guest Artie Bucco]

Artie, Wallace rated them in his curent order today of where they should have gone in that draft. Not where their valued in tadays 'Open marketplace'. We'd be lucky to get a pick 38 for Bate or for Dunn, maybe around pick 35...

Morton might get us something around pick 11 to 18, ish. Or a handy trade for someone like Bastinac!!! Or a wish for a Lynch type???

Oh no, I still get it... I'm just excited by the prospect of getting pick 35 in return for either of the 2, as it's way over the odds.

Morton is a hell of a lot more valuable than Bastinac IMHO, but it may increase our chances of keeping Scully (although trade week happens after the players have to have signed on at the Giants, iirc).

Would never happen anyway.

[Striker475 696]

Has Warnock just turned into Fletcher, Scarlett or Frawley. No club is going to give up a first round pick or for that matter a second round pick for Warnock.

I think a couple of clubs might. The Bulldogs, with the Lake fiasco? Port (who are screaming for a hard defender)? GWS (hell, Karmichael gets a game!)? Hell, even Hawthorn could use him, although you figured they'd learn after the first two times.

He's no Scarlett or Gadget, but he fills his role fairly well and is great as a counter to a KPF.