Food for Thought

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

As much as I hated the second half of the game yesterday, its not clearly as bad as some of the knee jerk reactions on this site. Clearly the MFC footy dept have much to do at a team and individual level (in some cases) to improve MFC's performances

But some food for thought. Hawthorn came into this season fully focussed on challenging for the flag and recruited skillful and experienced players to top up their list in Hale, Burgoyne and Bruce. Coupled with proven stars in Buddy, Rioli, Hodge and Sewell... their time is now.

They played poorly in Adelaide last week and would have clearly come to the MCG on a mission.

This is how the stats looked coming into the game (Average Age, total games experience, average games experience, No of players with in excess of 100 games).

Hawks (25yrs 161d, 2380 games, 108 games, 15 players)

MFC (23 yrs, 179d, 1379 games, 62 games, 5 players)

There is 2 years of football experience and over 1000 games of experience that the Hawks had over MFC! WOW! Its a huge gulf between the 2 teams. Despite what was being said on the scoreboard at 1/2 time, the Hawks were pumping us in the critical stats.

Its ironic that the players we feel we miss the most like Jordie, Scully, Morton are still in their formative years and if played would further lower that average age and games experience of our side. Its reality check to understand just where the side is at.

Of our senior group, Moloney, Rivers, Green, Sylvia, Davey and Jamar, only Syvlia and Davey are not likely to be in contention when we hope to seriously challenge for a flag in 2014/15. The senior group is thin in numbers and are not game breaking match winners. They'll have good days where they are eulogised on this site but often throughout the year their mostly valiant efforts particuarly under pressure are not good enough. At worst some of them go missing for extended periods.

And then what do we have left.....inexperienced talented kids who are still learning the caper. We were physically done over yesterday. Rather than wrist slashing which seems to be a hobby around here for some a consideration of our list and what has to be done is in order. Its an indication of tbe mountain MFC needs to climb. I have no doubt the football department realise the extent of the challenge. But its clear that many supporters dont.

There have been a number of sage but largely unnoticed posts in recent months on this site that have suggested that with the MFC list younger this year than last year, that this is still a development year. This will bring some exciting performances from tomorrow stars but will also include some hollow and disappointing outcomes as the younger players learn by hard experience just what is required to be the best in AFL. And sometimes the lesson has to repeated to sink in. And when you watch the progress of Jurrah, Watts, Trengove, Bennell and Tapscott you clearly understand why. When you think that we are still to blood Blease and co. and co together with bringing back "best 22" players in Scully, Jordie and Morton, this team is crammed with youth. Some of this talent will make it as AFL footballers, some wont. But you just cant buy or teach experience, it must be "experienced" by each player.

Posters who have routinely and repeatedly stated that this year is "the 8 or bust" are potentially in for disappointment and no doubt some self serving torch burning. Bailey in his final year of his contract. I am not sure whether MFC will extend his tenure or re sign him. However given the commitment to developing the younger players over the past couple of years, I hope he continues to push the younger players through and maintains that development focus. When you look at the list, I dont think he has a choice to do otherwise.

[Gorgoroth 12,717]

A well thought out post RR.

But I like fire and burning things

But seriously, one of my biggest dissapointments of yesterday was none of the more senior players seemed to try and take it upon them selves to stop the rot.

But agree that this year will be a roller coaster ride, should beat Brisbane, not 100% sold on beating GCS up there.

[Nasher 33,607]

I had already written this post in my head on my way in to work this morning, was just waiting for the time to turn up in my day to actually pen it. Well written - totally agree on all points.

[Range Rover 1,935]

Of our senior group, Moloney, Rivers, Green, Sylvia, Davey and Jamar, only Syvlia and Davey are not likely to be in contention when we hope to seriously challenge for a flag in 2014/15. The senior group is thin in numbers and are not game breaking match winners. They'll have good days where they are eulogised on this site but often throughout the year their mostly valiant efforts particuarly under pressure are not good enough. At worst some of them go missing for extended periods.

So until 2014 we'll have to continually watch the above 6 players (plus several others) go to water under pressure every other week? How are the younger players going to learn when they are shown such poor leadership by those supposed to know better. This idea that it will all just magically come together in 3 or 4 years according to some mathematical premiership "formula", does not excuse those players from seemingly going through the motions under pressure.

No doubt they'll come out next week and play out of their skins against lowly Brisbane and we'll all forget just how ordinary they are against the big boys.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 10,863]

Great post RR. Is there anyway this can be made the Demonland homepage for the rest of the year?

[Bonkers 988]

Good post RR. However there are parts of our game which aren't developing & which don't appear to have been addressed. Bailey has been coach for 3 years & serious questions need to be asked why these aspects aren't improving. I'll list the most obvious deficiencies in our game.

1. Kickouts & navigating through a zone.

2. Forward pressure from kickouts & setting up an adequate zone.

3. We are ranked last for forward 50 entries.

4. Clearance work is poor despite having an All Australian Ruckman.

5. Intensity, work rate & winning mentality which should be not negotiable is not in place.

To me the points I raised are all parts of our game which should be rectifiable, however in 3 years they don't appear to have been addressed. I applaud the club in the direction they are taking with youth, but a portion of blame needs to be pointed at the FD for not rectifying deficiencies that have been pretty obvious even to supporters for a significant amount of time. Some of the simple tactics of modern footy don't seem to be being taught. If they are being taught, we are seeing little result. I'm fully supportive of the direction the club is taking, but not everything that goes wrong can be put down to a developing list or a group of older players that aren't good enough.

[Nasher 33,607]

So until 2014 we'll have to continually watch the above 6 players (plus several others) go to water under pressure every other week? How are the younger players going to learn when they are shown such poor leadership by those supposed to know better.

They'll figure it out on their own because they're superior players to their senior colleagues. This idea that young players need to be "taught" by senior players how to handle pressure is pure nonsense. The reason Scully, Trengove et al were so highly rated is because they've got balls in addition to their skills.

[Range Rover 1,935]

They'll figure it out on their own because they're superior players to their senior colleagues. This idea that young players need to be "taught" by senior players how to handle pressure is pure nonsense. The reason Scully, Trengove et al were so highly rated is because they've got balls in addition to their skills.

No doubt they will be superior players in time but their bodies are still two years away from being of the type that can mix it in the clinches with Hodge and Sewell types. We needed our mature bodied players to show the way when the heat was turned up yesterday and it didn't happen. Poor leadership.

[old dee 23,506]

As much as I hated the second half of the game yesterday, its not clearly as bad as some of the knee jerk reactions on this site. Clearly the MFC footy dept have much to do at a team and individual level (in some cases) to improve MFC's performances

But some food for thought. Hawthorn came into this season fully focussed on challenging for the flag and recruited skillful and experienced players to top up their list in Hale, Burgoyne and Bruce. Coupled with proven stars in Buddy, Rioli, Hodge and Sewell... their time is now.

They played poorly in Adelaide last week and would have clearly come to the MCG on a mission.

This is how the stats looked coming into the game (Average Age, total games experience, average games experience, No of players with in excess of 100 games).

Hawks (25yrs 161d, 2380 games, 108 games, 15 players)

MFC (23 yrs, 179d, 1379 games, 62 games, 5 players)

There is 2 years of football experience and over 1000 games of experience that the Hawks had over MFC! WOW! Its a huge gulf between the 2 teams. Despite what was being said on the scoreboard at 1/2 time, the Hawks were pumping us in the critical stats.

Its ironic that the players we feel we miss the most like Jordie, Scully, Morton are still in their formative years and if played would further lower that average age and games experience of our side. Its reality check to understand just where the side is at.

Of our senior group, Moloney, Rivers, Green, Sylvia, Davey and Jamar, only Syvlia and Davey are not likely to be in contention when we hope to seriously challenge for a flag in 2014/15. The senior group is thin in numbers and are not game breaking match winners. They'll have good days where they are eulogised on this site but often throughout the year their mostly valiant efforts particuarly under pressure are not good enough. At worst some of them go missing for extended periods.

And then what do we have left.....inexperienced talented kids who are still learning the caper. We were physically done over yesterday. Rather than wrist slashing which seems to be a hobby around here for some a consideration of our list and what has to be done is in order. Its an indication of tbe mountain MFC needs to climb. I have no doubt the football department realise the extent of the challenge. But its clear that many supporters dont.

There have been a number of sage but largely unnoticed posts in recent months on this site that have suggested that with the MFC list younger this year than last year, that this is still a development year. This will bring some exciting performances from tomorrow stars but will also include some hollow and disappointing outcomes as the younger players learn by hard experience just what is required to be the best in AFL. And sometimes the lesson has to repeated to sink in. And when you watch the progress of Jurrah, Watts, Trengove, Bennell and Tapscott you clearly understand why. When you think that we are still to blood Blease and co. and co together with bringing back "best 22" players in Scully, Jordie and Morton, this team is crammed with youth. Some of this talent will make it as AFL footballers, some wont. But you just cant buy or teach experience, it must be "experienced" by each player.

Posters who have routinely and repeatedly stated that this year is "the 8 or bust" are potentially in for disappointment and no doubt some self serving torch burning. Bailey in his final year of his contract. I am not sure whether MFC will extend his tenure or re sign him. However given the commitment to developing the younger players over the past couple of years, I hope he continues to push the younger players through and maintains that development focus. When you look at the list, I dont think he has a choice to do otherwise.

All of What you say makes good sense RR.

Our rositer is now 75% DB's selections, if he gets a longer term he will live or die by the current players.

To be honest I have no idea if he is a good coach

however if he is only average and his selection of players is not first rate then God helps us.

We have gone with him 100% if it is wrong the future is as dark as a black dog's guts!

[stueyspencer no12 73]

As much as I hated the second half of the game yesterday, its not clearly as bad as some of the knee jerk reactions on this site. Clearly the MFC footy dept have much to do at a team and individual level (in some cases) to improve MFC's performances

But some food for thought. Hawthorn came into this season fully focussed on challenging for the flag and recruited skillful and experienced players to top up their list in Hale, Burgoyne and Bruce. Coupled with proven stars in Buddy, Rioli, Hodge and Sewell... their time is now.

They played poorly in Adelaide last week and would have clearly come to the MCG on a mission.

This is how the stats looked coming into the game (Average Age, total games experience, average games experience, No of players with in excess of 100 games).

Hawks (25yrs 161d, 2380 games, 108 games, 15 players)

MFC (23 yrs, 179d, 1379 games, 62 games, 5 players)

There is 2 years of football experience and over 1000 games of experience that the Hawks had over MFC! WOW! Its a huge gulf between the 2 teams. Despite what was being said on the scoreboard at 1/2 time, the Hawks were pumping us in the critical stats.

Its ironic that the players we feel we miss the most like Jordie, Scully, Morton are still in their formative years and if played would further lower that average age and games experience of our side. Its reality check to understand just where the side is at.

Of our senior group, Moloney, Rivers, Green, Sylvia, Davey and Jamar, only Syvlia and Davey are not likely to be in contention when we hope to seriously challenge for a flag in 2014/15. The senior group is thin in numbers and are not game breaking match winners. They'll have good days where they are eulogised on this site but often throughout the year their mostly valiant efforts particuarly under pressure are not good enough. At worst some of them go missing for extended periods.

And then what do we have left.....inexperienced talented kids who are still learning the caper. We were physically done over yesterday. Rather than wrist slashing which seems to be a hobby around here for some a consideration of our list and what has to be done is in order. Its an indication of tbe mountain MFC needs to climb. I have no doubt the football department realise the extent of the challenge. But its clear that many supporters dont.

There have been a number of sage but largely unnoticed posts in recent months on this site that have suggested that with the MFC list younger this year than last year, that this is still a development year. This will bring some exciting performances from tomorrow stars but will also include some hollow and disappointing outcomes as the younger players learn by hard experience just what is required to be the best in AFL. And sometimes the lesson has to repeated to sink in. And when you watch the progress of Jurrah, Watts, Trengove, Bennell and Tapscott you clearly understand why. When you think that we are still to blood Blease and co. and co together with bringing back "best 22" players in Scully, Jordie and Morton, this team is crammed with youth. Some of this talent will make it as AFL footballers, some wont. But you just cant buy or teach experience, it must be "experienced" by each player.

Posters who have routinely and repeatedly stated that this year is "the 8 or bust" are potentially in for disappointment and no doubt some self serving torch burning. Bailey in his final year of his contract. I am not sure whether MFC will extend his tenure or re sign him. However given the commitment to developing the younger players over the past couple of years, I hope he continues to push the younger players through and maintains that development focus. When you look at the list, I dont think he has a choice to do otherwise.

Thank God for a reasoned response. Well done. In the last match v Hawthorn last year, we lead, from memory early in the 2nd quarter. Then it rained and they smashed us in the midfield and won easily. Scoring condidtions not as easy as yesterday, but essentially the problem was the same--we couldn't match their strength in midfield.

I had little optimism yesterday. The Hawks had their best 22 on the field--we have not. But even if we had, we don't yet have talented but tough mids.[Moloney, Jones tough enough but not all that skilled] Tapscott has the physique and ability--has he played mid-field earlier n his career? I'm reluctant to see Scully [when fit] or Trengove in the midst of the centre packs at this stage, but I'm not certain what alternatives we have.

Having regard to the strength issue I was surprised to see Joel Mac dropped but one player would have made littkle difference

[Jaded No More 68,115]

But I thought yelling was the answer to our problems, and Newton. Disappointing.

[agent_orange 0]

Nicely done Rhino, most of the thinking supporters know that and I suspect the supporters that don't never will. I knew at halftime we were shot and said so, I'm surprised Bailey was "blindsided" by the second half.

Range Rover just look at the Suns on Saturday. Beaten by over 100 points and they have two mids (perhaps 3) that would be our first 3 starting mids. Teams are made up of 22 players who all have to do their role (Collingwood being the perfect example), not 6 or 8 good footballers surrounded by 14 to 16 who are on learners permits.

I'm as frustrated as anyone with the time it takes for players to grow and develop and I'd be thrilled if someone could offer an alternative.

I think we should have kept James McDonald. Mistake 1. It is alright wanting a great rebuild and youth policy but one needs to get experience in their with the younger players.

Mistake 2, Not making a play for a big body forward.

[The Chazz 4,077]

I think we should have kept James McDonald. Mistake 1. It is alright wanting a great rebuild and youth policy but one needs to get experience in their with the younger players.

Mistake 2, Not making a play for a big body forward.

Martin can play that role, but it's pointless having one if the ball doesn't get down there more than it does!

BTW - Junior wouldn't have lasted the year - why do it to him? His body was not where it needed to be to play at that level this year.

[Radar Detector 1,347]

Great post RR. I agree with all that you have said. The key to this team will be time to develop and we are unlikely to see the rapid improvement some expect. I'm not sure that this should spell the end for Bailey however as some are calling for. Some further observations based on the Hawks debacle:

1. It's hard to criticise Bailey's game plan based on yesterday's game. We looked pretty good with the ball in our hands but just could not get a clearance or win a hard ball. Our game style actually allows us to attack quickly and score from good positions, hence our scoring efficiency last year and again yesterday despite miserable i50 stats. Hawthorn, on the other hand, attack wide and often have shots from tough spots, hence the inaccuracy. BUT...

2. Surprisingly, given our focus on drafting key forwards, the midfield remains our weakness. Jordie and Sculls will help when they return but our midfield rotation is light on numbers. I'd like to see Joel Mac or even Strauss back in the side (Morton could play the role too) and Grimes moved into the midfield for a few weeks. It's almost impossible to win games when the defence is under siege and the forards are getting no ball.

3. Our kick-ins rely too heavily on hitting Jamar which is very predictable and easy for opposition teams to counter. He was often competing against Hale/Renouf, Buddy and a third tall... he's not superman FFS.

4. Our use of the sub yesterday was terrible. Hawthorn injected Lewis who had an immediate impact. Maric was never going to.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Thank you for a sane thread, they are getting more difficult to find.

[agent_orange 0]

Martin can play that role, but it's pointless having one if the ball doesn't get down there more than it does!

BTW - Junior wouldn't have lasted the year - why do it to him? His body was not where it needed to be to play at that level this year.

How do you know.

Martin could never be a big body forward because he cannot find the middle of the sticks. We might as well as stick big max gawn down their, at least his height might worry the oppositon defense.

[jackaub 1,402]

I think we should have kept James McDonald. Mistake 1. It is alright wanting a great rebuild and youth policy but one needs to get experience in their with the younger players.

Mistake 2, Not making a play for a big body forward.

You could have had Wayne Carey Barry Hall and JC in the forward line and it would not have made a difference

We have to learn to win the football at stoppages we won tapouts 3 to 1 and never cleared the ball effectively for two quarters

You cannot win games like that

[Guest Gotzy15]

Good post RR. However there are parts of our game which aren't developing & which don't appear to have been addressed. Bailey has been coach for 3 years & serious questions need to be asked why these aspects aren't improving. I'll list the most obvious deficiencies in our game.

1. Kickouts & navigating through a zone.

2. Forward pressure from kickouts & setting up an adequate zone.

3. We are ranked last for forward 50 entries.

4. Clearance work is poor despite having an All Australian Ruckman.

5. Intensity, work rate & winning mentality which should be not negotiable is not in place.

To me the points I raised are all parts of our game which should be rectifiable, however in 3 years they don't appear to have been addressed. I applaud the club in the direction they are taking with youth, but a portion of blame needs to be pointed at the FD for not rectifying deficiencies that have been pretty obvious even to supporters for a significant amount of time. Some of the simple tactics of modern footy don't seem to be being taught. If they are being taught, we are seeing little result. I'm fully supportive of the direction the club is taking, but not everything that goes wrong can be put down to a developing list or a group of older players that aren't good enough.

great call spot on

does bailey realise these are deffieciencies amd that they need to be addressed. 3 years is a long time to work with a group and impose your ideas

[Rocknroll 1,002]

Good post RR.

I have read too many overly emotive posts. Good to see someone spell it out.

The gospel from Demon HQ is about managing expectations. Scott west wrote about it, Todd Viney wrote about it, Bailey has talked about it.

Supporters expectations are high because we all know of our potential. But the reality that Rhino has articulated should not be forgotten.

It was a bad performance, it is how we bounce back and learn from it that counts.

Keep the faith

[Akum 2,660]

Great post RR. I agree with all that you have said. The key to this team will be time to develop and we are unlikely to see the rapid improvement some expect. I'm not sure that this should spell the end for Bailey however as some are calling for. Some further observations based on the Hawks debacle:

1. It's hard to criticise Bailey's game plan based on yesterday's game. We looked pretty good with the ball in our hands but just could not get a clearance or win a hard ball. Our game style actually allows us to attack quickly and score from good positions, hence our scoring efficiency last year and again yesterday despite miserable i50 stats. Hawthorn, on the other hand, attack wide and often have shots from tough spots, hence the inaccuracy. BUT...

2. Surprisingly, given our focus on drafting key forwards, the midfield remains our weakness. Jordie and Sculls will help when they return but our midfield rotation is light on numbers. I'd like to see Joel Mac or even Strauss back in the side (Morton could play the role too) and Grimes moved into the midfield for a few weeks. It's almost impossible to win games when the defence is under siege and the forards are getting no ball.

3. Our kick-ins rely too heavily on hitting Jamar which is very predictable and easy for opposition teams to counter. He was often competing against Hale/Renouf, Buddy and a third tall... he's not superman FFS.

4. Our use of the sub yesterday was terrible. Hawthorn injected Lewis who had an immediate impact. Maric was never going to.

Another great post. Agree totally with RR's opening post, and I'd like to comment on your other points:

1. What game plan we have is aimed at zone-busting, and for that, we do as well as anybody, as shown in the second quarter. In the second quarter, we totally disrupted their whole structure, which is no mean feat. We have an attacking game plan which is a beauty; we have no defensive game plan. But it totally and absolutely depends on our weakest link ...

2. ...THE MIDFIELD. When we were breaking even or winning the midfield, we had them on the run. I'll say it again, when we won the midfield, we were able to totally disrupt the structure of a team that lives & dies on its structure. But no defensive game plan can stand up against getting so comprehensively smashed in clearances, both centre bounces or around the ground. Can't understand people bagging the defence, they were under sustained pressure because in the 3rd quarter we hardly won a clearance. And until the FD realises that the centre bounce combination of Moloney + Jones + a tagger is not our best but our WORST combination, we will continue to get smashed in clearances. What bothers me is that if we ARE getting smashed in the clearances, we seem to be powerless to do anything about it. We didn't seem to fire a shot (Grimes or Dunn onto the ball anyone?) to try to stop it. When we win the midfield, our attacking game-plan can be devastating. When we lose the midfield, we can still attack enough to make it competitive. But no game plan will stand up to getting absolutely smashed in the midfield like we were after half time.

3. For a kick-out, if you can't hit someone on their own, the tactic is to pick a spot to force a stoppage in a place that's going to hurt you the least. A lot of the "implied pressure" from kick-ins was that forcing a stoppage meant that we would turn it over anyway. It's the midfield that is supposed to transition from defence to attack (one reason why they're called the MIDfield) and they went totally missing so we had no transition. We lose structure too easily, but only because we get beaten too easily with our 2008 midfield - we never lose our structure when we're winning the midfield!

4. When they subbed Lewis for Renouf (a midfielder for a ruck), from then on they were able to smash us in the midfield, no matter how many taps Jamar won. Unfair to blame Maric (replacing Jetta - like for like) for not having had a similar effect.

It stands or falls on the midfield. We could have comparatively the most efficient & effective defence & forward line in the comp, but if we don't improve our worst-in-comp midfield, we're going nowhere.

[Choko 493]

As much as I hated the second half of the game yesterday, its not clearly as bad as some of the knee jerk reactions on this site. Clearly the MFC footy dept have much to do at a team and individual level (in some cases) to improve MFC's performances

But some food for thought. Hawthorn came into this season fully focussed on challenging for the flag and recruited skillful and experienced players to top up their list in Hale, Burgoyne and Bruce. Coupled with proven stars in Buddy, Rioli, Hodge and Sewell... their time is now.

They played poorly in Adelaide last week and would have clearly come to the MCG on a mission.

This is how the stats looked coming into the game (Average Age, total games experience, average games experience, No of players with in excess of 100 games).

Hawks (25yrs 161d, 2380 games, 108 games, 15 players)

MFC (23 yrs, 179d, 1379 games, 62 games, 5 players)

There is 2 years of football experience and over 1000 games of experience that the Hawks had over MFC! WOW! Its a huge gulf between the 2 teams. Despite what was being said on the scoreboard at 1/2 time, the Hawks were pumping us in the critical stats.

Its ironic that the players we feel we miss the most like Jordie, Scully, Morton are still in their formative years and if played would further lower that average age and games experience of our side. Its reality check to understand just where the side is at.

Of our senior group, Moloney, Rivers, Green, Sylvia, Davey and Jamar, only Syvlia and Davey are not likely to be in contention when we hope to seriously challenge for a flag in 2014/15. The senior group is thin in numbers and are not game breaking match winners. They'll have good days where they are eulogised on this site but often throughout the year their mostly valiant efforts particuarly under pressure are not good enough. At worst some of them go missing for extended periods.

And then what do we have left.....inexperienced talented kids who are still learning the caper. We were physically done over yesterday. Rather than wrist slashing which seems to be a hobby around here for some a consideration of our list and what has to be done is in order. Its an indication of tbe mountain MFC needs to climb. I have no doubt the football department realise the extent of the challenge. But its clear that many supporters dont.

There have been a number of sage but largely unnoticed posts in recent months on this site that have suggested that with the MFC list younger this year than last year, that this is still a development year. This will bring some exciting performances from tomorrow stars but will also include some hollow and disappointing outcomes as the younger players learn by hard experience just what is required to be the best in AFL. And sometimes the lesson has to repeated to sink in. And when you watch the progress of Jurrah, Watts, Trengove, Bennell and Tapscott you clearly understand why. When you think that we are still to blood Blease and co. and co together with bringing back "best 22" players in Scully, Jordie and Morton, this team is crammed with youth. Some of this talent will make it as AFL footballers, some wont. But you just cant buy or teach experience, it must be "experienced" by each player.

Posters who have routinely and repeatedly stated that this year is "the 8 or bust" are potentially in for disappointment and no doubt some self serving torch burning. Bailey in his final year of his contract. I am not sure whether MFC will extend his tenure or re sign him. However given the commitment to developing the younger players over the past couple of years, I hope he continues to push the younger players through and maintains that development focus. When you look at the list, I dont think he has a choice to do otherwise.

Wallpaper over the cracks.

This is not a balanced post, it's almost propaganda, TBH.

Now we have pushed our "window" to 2014/15. Wow.

And if we are taking Davey, Sylvia (and I think you forgot Green and Rivers) out of the side to contend in 2014/15, we are going to have one whole group of basically the same aged kids, with new kids coming through. There is no good list as imbalanced as that. Especially if we think that one of Moloney and Jones can't be in our best midfield.

I agree that, with how terrible we have been the past few years, we cannot help but improve given the talent we have. And I am not in the 8 or bust group (although I think Bailey will find it very hard to keep his job if we don't make the 8). But there are some seriously concerning signs in the coaching panel and club decision making.

[Face Your Demons 175]

Right on the money Mr Rhino Richard.

[mauriesy 7,168]

We didn't lose yesterday's game because of game plan, lack of endeavour, Bailey or strategy.

We lost it because we were slaughtered in the clearances and contested ball. All our problems started with failure to win contested ball. Sometime during the game the clearance stats were something like 35-12. The more it occurred, the more defensive we became, and the less players attacked the ball, which lost even more clearances and balls in dispute. If we'd won more, the ball wouldn't have been locked in Hawthorn's forward 50 for large portions of the second half of the game.

Until we get 75-100 games into players like Scully, Trengove, Mackenzie, Gysberts, Grimes, Bail, Bennell, Morton and Tapscott, we simply won't have the experience, the mid-field depth or the bodies big enough to compete with the likes of Hawthorn and Collingwood in those contested situations. So I agree with RR's 'experience' analysis.

We've also got to find other ways of beating a forward press than "kick it to Jamar". "Kick it to Jamar" will work if either Jamar marks it, we can win the ball when it comes to ground or it goes out of bounds and we win it from there, but we didn't and it came back countless times.

I think there are a number of ways to try and beat the forward press, among which are:

1. Take the kickout quicker before the opposition has a chance to establish the zone.
   
2. Accurate short passing to leading players until the ball is outside the 50 (good teams though simply roll their zone back to counter though).
   
3. Station your talls in one area, supported by midfielders to try and win contested ball when it comes to ground.
   
4. The good old 'huddle'
   
5. Long bomb down the middle to a marking contest.
   
6. Kick to yourself and play on from the square, supported by a block from another backman, gets the ball further out

But we haven't been successful with any of these, and the fall back position yesterday was only number 3. Again it's an experience issue.

Yes, we would have been a better side if we'd snared one or two of Judd, Ball, Burgoyne and Hale, or retained Macdonald and Bruce. But maybe they'd have taken us only three-quarters to a premiership, not the full distance. There's not much point topping up when you're not in the 'window'. I think the Bulldogs and St Kilda might find that out sooner rather than later.

[beelzebub 23,204]

And the winner for "making excuses" award goes to RR!!

Any which way you cast it that was a deploable effort from the club. That's Coaches down, pathetic for all but a couple . That same team has played much much better.

No, let's set the tone for acceptance of mediocrity again in 2011.

I understand Rhino that which you're trying to explain however a simpler and far more accurate appraisal was they played like sh!t. They all need to own that game as Farr as responsibility goes and do something about it... One might even suggest take a leaf out of the victors book and DO , not TRY !! Or we're in for a very trying year .

[heartbeatstrue 57]

Good post RR. However there are parts of our game which aren't developing & which don't appear to have been addressed. Bailey has been coach for 3 years & serious questions need to be asked why these aspects aren't improving. I'll list the most obvious deficiencies in our game.

1. Kickouts & navigating through a zone.

2. Forward pressure from kickouts & setting up an adequate zone.

3. We are ranked last for forward 50 entries.

4. Clearance work is poor despite having an All Australian Ruckman.

5. Intensity, work rate & winning mentality which should be not negotiable is not in place.

To me the points I raised are all parts of our game which should be rectifiable, however in 3 years they don't appear to have been addressed. I applaud the club in the direction they are taking with youth, but a portion of blame needs to be pointed at the FD for not rectifying deficiencies that have been pretty obvious even to supporters for a significant amount of time. Some of the simple tactics of modern footy don't seem to be being taught. If they are being taught, we are seeing little result. I'm fully supportive of the direction the club is taking, but not everything that goes wrong can be put down to a developing list or a group of older players that aren't good enough.

I agree with Rhino's post, it was an important message to get out there, and quickly.

I also agree with Bonkers (above). Some of these things are going to solve themselves with bigger bodies and experience (look at how Jack Watts' game has improved, for instance). Getting whacked at clearances and contested ball due to youth is always going to exacerbate the things you've listed Bonkers.

But there's heaps for the coaching staff to work on and redress in what you've listed. Are the current coaching staff up to it? It's a call for the FD but if changes are necessary to improve the coaching in the 5 areas you've listed, hopefully they've got the ticker to make the necessary changes.