David Hale

[darkhorse72 1,917]

hale is better than kossi who has always been crap for his pick.

[Ned 156]

hale is better than kossi who has always been crap for his pick.

Well, if the trade is for a bag of chips (which is all it should be), I'd take Kossie as I think he has more upside. You've got to question a player's worth if he's being dumped by norf!

[The Big Ticket 94]

hale is better than kossi who has always been crap for his pick.

Before that massive bump, Kosi was a very good player. He was never going to come back and have an impact after that.

[Jarka 767]

For a second I thought you were going to ignore my post.

My initial thoughts on Hale weren't overly positive and I posted as much in this thread. Then I began to wonder why the FD would make this call. I take solace in the fact that I don't reckon they've made one bad move in 3 years, so I thought I better at least challenge my own thinking.

I remember Hales 7, or so, goals against the Cats. I remember him being tall, skinny and lumbering. Like most his size I remember him not being great below his knees. I remember him getting dropped. I remember he had a really good year and McIntosh being on the trade table at the end of it. But I don't remember much else. I haven't had cause to watch him closely enough. I have scattered memories, but not enough for me to have a definitive viewpoint one way or the other. My recollections aren't so strong that I'd categorically say the the FD are wrong. I had an initial gut feeling, but they've been wrong before.

I admire your expert player recall.

My opinion on him is a bit biased, I've had him in my supercoach/dreamteam on many occasions over the last half dozen years as I used to rate him highly. Not sure if you play but I tend to take an interest in the players I pick up and watch them a bit more closely.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't get him (or perhaps I have), but I wouldn't part for a first rounder that some have advocated and I'm undercided on a second rounder. I understand though that if we want him it will have to be that pick.

If we do pick him up I really hope I'm wrong about him as the idea of someone filling that role is brilliant.

This is what I remember.

Started off well in the ruck but was quickly overtaken by others.

Laidley experimented with a forward role with some success although when he was tried as a CHF he failed.

Strengths - Size, strong mark, good kick, plays as a pure tap ruckman.

Weaknesses - Doesn't use his size to advantage (ie doesn't crash packs), extremely poor below his knees, unable to perform with niggling injuries, inconsistent.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I can not believe how many people are happy with the idea of picking up David Hale. Sure he might help us out short term, but he wont help us win a flag so why bother with him.

I think it's a matter of starting to 'formulate' the 'Game style', that Bails wants us to develop. If we get him, or someone else like him, very tall, forward/ruck combo, then we can finally structure, the style of onfield team that Bails has had in mind.

so far I think we've been doing the obvious List building,,, & teaching the skills to the young, & mature players. Some of the mature players, I think seem to have struggled to pick up the change game style, or it appeared that way.

By putting Hale/or similar,,,1&1/2 rucks... We can structure the forwardline the way they've been recruiting towards. Small forwards, with 1 or 2 medium forwards, a leadup classy tall forward & a big tall forward/ruck. Fitzpatrick & Gawn won't be ready before 2 or 3 years & Spence, if still around will take at least next year to bulkup some more & build his engine & get some confidence.

the rest of the teams structure seems to be taking shape, except for the change of personnel here & there along the journey.

So if we can get a temp, experienced and capable ruck/forward option, that just like putting a jig template over the forward zone, & say there it is boys, go for it.

IMO the recruiting strategy is right. Just don't spend too much getting it.

[jayceebee31 761]

Yep, especially where big men are concerned.

No point fluffing around with PJ.

Let Fitz and Gawn develop.

A 2nd round pick for Hale, which we might get back with a Warnock trade anyway.

With regard to PJ, don't forget what has happened to Jamar and Leigh Brown over the last couple of years- talls don't flourish till they are around 26/7. However I am not saying PJ will- but I think we should keep him for a year if we don't pick up a replacement.

[beelzebub 23,376]

Why did you go of on that tangent?

The gist of what I was saying was that If we want to go that way of recruiting Mature established players, (instead of the youth policy), that we should go all the way, & Not half way. Do it properly, or don't do it.

If you think Hale alone will take us to the Neverland, I disagree. I'm happy to give up a pick in the 30 to 40ish for him. But I don't value him, or the Strategy, more than pick 30.

.....

in order...tangent ? you introduced the notion of going whole hog after some name.. I simply suggest its fanciful to think you can simply go get them. You do it as much as you are allowed. There has to be a realism about it all.

2nd.. Dont for a moment think Hale is some magical elixir..some cure-all. He would be a compnent in a line up. he may well help straighten out a niggling problem for us.. ..Pick 30 ? how arbitrary. At present we dont now how we will fair with any other trades so we cant know what number would be offered to Nth...but even if around thirty...so what. Who exactly are we going to spend this pick on.. nature, position .. etc.

So many suggest No No No ...dont use pick 2....and yet none suggest who we ought to get..or use it on...all the whiles keeping it real with who and where wed get this person. If its a draftpick... then who ?? and why ??

ep..lets keep warehousing...great idea

Going to be an interesting draft and trade this year.. so very different for us compared to recent years.

[jayceebee31 761]

Those two players hardly have the build of Leigh Brown.

Brown hasn't improved really, he's just fitted in nicely with Collingwood's plans.

I don't agree- Brown has drammatically improved-in particular his fitness.

[old55 23,576]

I agree in the main, old55, but I would add that I'd be unwilling to draft out of pick 12 for Hale under any circumstances. With so much talent off-limits with these drafts, I think that getting as big a shot at top-end is worth a lot. Depriving other strugglers is also worth doing.

Yeah I wouldn't trade pick 12 for Hale - he's a role player. We should be aiming to draft more with that pick - I haven't read all the posts but I'd be surprised to see anyone advocating that. I think 2nd rounder is about right but there could be some to and fro depending on who pays his salary. If Hale is only worth 3rd or 4th rounder in this compromised draft he's really not worth having for the role we're talking about - end of discussion. I'm not thinking of him as a depth ruckman.

I think dee-luded's posts about structure are on the right track.

[Radar Detector 1,347]

Just for a bit of context, those pondering whether Hale is worth a second or third round choice (me included) should probably bear in mind the following. In 2008 our third round pick (Jamie Bennell) was pick 35 and in 2009 Max Gawn was pick 34. This year, our second round pick is 31. If we really think Hale is worth a "third rounder", unfortunately our second pick is probably about right. Will be interesting to see if we can fill that hole with any additional player-for-pick swaps if we do go down that path.

[The Albino Warrior 44]

A second round pick in a reportedly deep draft for a player who couldn't get a game in a 9th placed team crying out for a big presence at full forward?

Is it because we've traded so judiciously in recent years that the consensus is we can afford to take this kind of massive risk?

[old55 23,576]

A second round pick in a reportedly deep draft for a player who couldn't get a game in a 9th placed team crying out for a big presence at full forward?

Is it because we've traded so judiciously in recent years that the consensus is we can afford to take this kind of massive risk?

Would you take a 3rd rounder this year for say Mathew Warnock?

[Hannabal 4]

A second round pick in a reportedly deep draft for a player who couldn't get a game in a 9th placed team crying out for a big presence at full forward?

You've hit the crux of the matter. Hale is being recruited for what he brings to the ruck. As a stand alone forward he's not good enough.

I see him playing 35% ruck. If he's a poor ruck then he's not worth having.

[beelzebub 23,376]

so what does the club ( MFC-FD ) know that we all dont ??

its obviously a big something !! !!

We need a balance of Boys..and MEN ...cant keep loading up the cart with kids. Hale is a biggish bloke.. he wont be bundles out the way in the manner Watts still is. Someone like Hale is need to bed down the forward line.. i.e whether is Hale..or Jamar ( resting )..were just to light up the front and I imagine thats something the club wants to redress.

He obviously impressed the club last May

[grazman 7,436]

Is it because we've traded so judiciously in recent years that the consensus is we can afford to take this kind of massive risk?

Every trade is a risk, just ask St Kilda about Andrew Lovett or Brisbane about Fev, you just have to understand what you're getting. Our trading has been judicious because we've got picks in return for players. - At some stage you need to address inbalances on the list. Hale does that. I take every thing I read on here with a large pinch of salt. After all it wasn't so long ago that a large bunch of Armchair experts were lambasting the club for picking James Frawley ahead of James Sellar in the draft. If the footy club are targetting Hale, it's probably because they are using their knowledge and experience in footy to come to an informed decision as opposed to DT rankings or such like.

Edited October 3, 2010 by grazman

[Red Sox 2]

If we can get the deal up, David Hale will be wearing red & blue next year. Nothing surer in my mind.

He suits our needs.

Anyone remember how dead on his feet Jamar was by about Round 16-17? Paul Johnson was given all opportunity to assist and besides little fits and starts, he didn't provide much at all.

Hale will be much more than competitive at the ruck contest, he will be a decent target up forward around a group of Jurrah, Watts, Petterd etc.

If we can get 25-30 goals out of him, even 20 with a decent ruck output we will be happy.

Bugger waiting, the time is now to hit finals in 2011. As big as Jamar's heart is, he will need some help if we are to win a final or two.

Jamar is out and out number one. Hale for a 2nd round pick, that we could yet get back, is a winner as our back up.

Edited October 3, 2010 by Demon Hill

[The Albino Warrior 44]

You've hit the crux of the matter. Hale is being recruited for what he brings to the ruck. As a stand alone forward he's not good enough.

I see him playing 35% ruck. If he's a poor ruck then he's not worth having.

I'd agree with that.

And from my observations of him over a couple of years, I'm not sure he is a particularly good AFL-level ruckman.

I guess it comes down to opportunity:

There are very few quality ruckmen going round in the AFL let alone being put on the trade table. There are even fewer genuine ruck/forwards. So...

Do we go for the bloke who has played as a genuine forward/ruck but has never excelled and regularly been found wanting simply because he's the only attainable player who fits the criteria? Or do we look for a much cheaper option (salary- and trade-wise), who is not yet a genuine ruck/forward with more chance of failure but more long-term potential upside? (The player I was really keen on until Sam Jacobs asked to be traded was Shaun Hampson, who I think is underrated, would have come much cheaper than Hale and would have been an excellent second ruck and a potentially handy goalsquare wrestler.)

I guess the third option is to go hard for a proven solid forward who can pinch hit in the ruck, but then you're looking at giving up 12 and potentially a player.

[beelzebub 23,376]

The real question for mine is not whether Hale has talent or not. He obviously does and can be a very good player on his day. Its whats causing the friction at kangaland ? Has he become a square peg in a team of round holes ( sts..lol ) Why do Melbourne think hed be different at the Dees? What would we be doing/providing/offering thats different ?

is it simply a fresh start...change of scenery ? All these things can have a marked influence on outcomes. Harrington obviously remembers something thats piqued his curiousity.

Ahh theres something about a Melbourne team with two decent rucks !! ahhh the memories !! :)

keep in mind atm most teams can cover our existing FF lineup. Often having the luxury at times to even only put their #2 defender on whom ever we line up there. Put Hale/Jamar there and its a very different kettle of fish.

so if thats the benefit of spending a 2nd round pick ( assuming thats what we do !! ) then show me the alternative benefit of not doing this..i.e picking up yet another kid ( wet behind the ears) and put into incubation ( with the others) ???

How is that better for season 2011??

edit:

what i forgot to suggest as tempering this view is as others ( and myself) acknowledge is that we are all but getting toweled in the rucking when Jamar is relieved. This is incredibly expensive. Changes the whole momentum of our game.. The Russian influence waned here and there as season progressed when he obviously felt the load in some games.

Change this up for the inclusion of someone who can at least provide a contest, minimising the effectively of the oppositions ruck if not indeed actually giving us some wins in hit/tap-outs.. This is a whole different dynamic.

PJ has just been disappointing..sorry PJ thats just what is. its not working for us. Spencer still very much a work in progress.. realisation date??? wtfk !!

there are no guarantees in life.. just opoortunites and the will to try

Edited October 4, 2010 by belzebub59

[grazman 7,436]

(The player I was really keen on until Sam Jacobs asked to be traded was Shaun Hampson, who I think is underrated, would have come much cheaper than Hale and would have been an excellent second ruck and a potentially handy goalsquare wrestler.)

Hampson I rate as a good ruckman, but what information have you to suggest that he's cheaper than Hale or going to be a better forward (remembering that Hale at least has several games that he's kicked multiple goals in). From the little that I know Hampson is rated highly at Carlton as you'd expect from a first round draft pick. Have you heard he isn't happy and wants to move? The difficulty in trading isn't identifying the type of player you need, but having them available at an affordable price. I'm not sure Hampson is.

[Red Sox 2]

David Hale is a spud.

He is much better than that mate. No superstar that's for sure but fair dinkum he deserves a little more credit than that. Hell, advanced hair think enough of him to make him an ambassador!

I don't agree- Brown has drammatically improved-in particular his fitness.

Agree with this JCB.

[dee-luded 2,959]

With regard to PJ, don't forget what has happened to Jamar and Leigh Brown over the last couple of years- talls don't flourish till they are around 26/7. However I am not saying PJ will- but I think we should keep him for a year if we don't pick up a replacement.

Absolutely, if we don't get an experienced.

[beelzebub 23,376]

Hampson I rate as a good ruckman, but what information have you to suggest that he's cheaper than Hale or going to be a better forward (remembering that Hale at least has several games that he's kicked multiple goals in). From the little that I know Hampson is rated highly at Carlton as you'd expect from a first round draft pick. Have you heard he isn't happy and wants to move? The difficulty in trading isn't identifying the type of player you need, but having them available at an affordable price. I'm not sure Hampson is.

a much overlooked point here. There a re a lot of fanciful wishlists..and ludicrous trade scenarios but the club has to work with REALITIES.

[The Albino Warrior 44]

...show me the alternative benefit of not doing this..i.e picking up yet another kid ( wet behind the ears) and put into incubation ( with the others) ???

How is that better for season 2011??

I'm not too concerned about 2011. Making the finals seems the next step if our improvement continues and I'd think we can do that even with our forward line clearly lacking what Bailey has described as the "get out" forward.

What would concern me is if we get burnt by the unfavourable market conditions and do one or more of the following:

* agree to part with a valuable pick/handy player

* agree to pay that absurd $400,000 salary being talked about

* give him three years

One or two of these might be OK if Hale turns out to be just the player we're hoping for. If he isn't, we're left with a liability. Nothing retards progress more effectively than a mature player you've invested heavily in under-performing. If you drop him, you're paying plenty for a VFL player. If you play him, you're holding back a player who actually deserves a game.

I can live without a big forward-line body player for 2011 if a premium-priced Hale is the one and only option.

[e25 5]

I'm not too concerned about 2011. Making the finals seems the next step if our improvement continues and I'd think we can do that even with our forward line clearly lacking what Bailey has described as the "get out" forward.

What would concern me is if we get burnt by the unfavourable market conditions and do one or more of the following:

* agree to part with a valuable pick/handy player

* agree to pay that absurd $400,000 salary being talked about

* give him three years

One or two of these might be OK if Hale turns out to be just the player we're hoping for. If he isn't, we're left with a liability. Nothing retards progress more effectively than a mature player you've invested heavily in under-performing. If you drop him, you're paying plenty for a VFL player. If you play him, you're holding back a player who actually deserves a game.

I can live without a big forward-line body player for 2011 if a premium-priced Hale is the one and only option.

His existing contract is said to be worth that much, and I'm sure he has another couple of years to go.

This is a factor that may make him cheaper to acquire - North would be keen to get that exorbitant salary out of their cap, considering how much he plays for them.

Edited October 4, 2010 by E25

[old dee 23,791]

I can not believe how many people are happy with the idea of picking up David Hale. Sure he might help us out short term, but he wont help us win a flag so why bother with him.

Not sure how you define "help us win a flag"!

If he fills the hole we are looking for over the next 2-3 years while our young ruckman develop and we play in finals in 11/12 and

make the GF in 13/14 then he has helped us win a GF!

Clearly Spencer, Mckenzie and Gawn are some way off filling the role we need from a player in 2011.

There does not appear too many other options to me.

I think it boils down to Keep PJ or get Hale.

Remember we gave away Jolley because we thought he was inferior to White and he has now played in two Premierships.

Hale might be the same and who knows what a change of teams might do!

Edited October 4, 2010 by old dee