David Hale

[dee-luded 2,959]

For me this is the key. Hale needs to be a genuine ruck option. I doubt whether he'd want to come to Melb to be stuck in the forward line, as he was under Laidley. I suspect that Melb are looking at using him 35% ruck/ 35% forward/ 20% bench. This allows Jamar to be 65% ruck/ 25% forward / 10% bench. If he's on a par with Miller's best as a forward and superior in the ruck to Johnson, then there's value in the trade. 37 goals as a 21 year old is nothing to sneeze at. I know that you think that there's no evidence that he can replicate, or indeed improve on that form, but I'm comforted by the fact that he at least had the ability to produce those results. With the right coaching/development I'll back the club to get better performances. That's what good clubs do.

I'm surprised that you think that PJ is a better ruck. PJ is hopeless. Most North supporters believe that Hale is the best pure tap ruckman at the club. And yes, I understand that they have a vested interest in talking him up.

Hale's taps are well down due to him playing almost exclusively as a forward for years. Prior to that he was a tall, skinny, developing ruckman in his early 20's. He obviously has deficiencies, but as an understudy to Jamar I reckon it's a pretty good combination, where two ruckman can go forward and hit the scoreboard. Not a lot of ruckman kick goals, but we'd have two. We've already got plenty of X factor up forward, so it's a reasonable fit for me.

The other thing it tells me is that the club doesn't think that it's a mile off being right in contention. I reckon that they see a genuine window in the next 2-3 years.

Geelong: end of an era, but will still be competitive. Can those that have climbed the mountain keep their hunger ? They look old and like they've lost hunger to me.

Dogs: too many players over 30. Have some excellent young talent, but not enough in the 24-27 year old range.

Saints: it's their last chance this year. Hayes is 30, Riewoldt has been battered for years, and there's just not enough talent coming through. Penty of spuds in their team that are protected by a few stars.

Pies: will be thereabouts for the next few years. Getting a lot out of some average footballers. Good depth.

Freo: a genuine proposition in the not too distant future. Inexperienced and travel factor will be issues.

Carlton: still too many holes on their list. Will be competitive, but I don't see a flag under Ratten. Poor depth and too reliant on the mercenary.

I won't go through any others, but when I evaluate the top 8 sides lists not much scares me. Some lack depth, some are too old, some lack stars ...

I think we're very well placed as we move forward. This is an important draft/trade period for us to dot a couple of i's and cross a couple of t's. If our youth develop as expected I reckon we'll progress quicker than some think.

Yeah, very good summation. I agree now that our window could arrive early as our opponents fall back.. The danger here is that we get there before we've Iced the cake, then the guests arrive before we're ready.

We must get this trade draft right, & that is now why I see them chasing Hale hard instead of an even cheaper option.

I'd just say one thing,,,, Don't give up our first 2 picks! Or all this pain & hard work we've been going through will be wasted if we fall short by going off early.

[1858 285]

I did say theoretically. I was just trying to emphasise a point that he's not being recruited as a key forward, but to provide some structure to free up and protect our younger developing key forwards in Watts and Jurrah.

I would hope he will get 1-2 goals per game

When you play goal square you should have at least some KP attributes or we may as well stick with PJ.

I understand what the club is trying to achieve and I agree we need that type of player for structure but there has to be some more strings to the bow if we're talking 2nd pick. Nearly any ruckman with an ounce of skill can perform that role and it is in this light that Hale should be scrutinised.

For all those who don't want Hale, what is your better alternative

Hard to know what all the options in trade week will be but I'd go with a stock ruckman who will earn his keep at the stopages and then perform the role you mention in the square (which shouldn't be too hard going by your definition of the said role). If we end up opting for Hale (which it sounds like we are) then 3rd rounder and a fringe player (nothing more). If Hale promised something more over a stock ruckman up forward then I'd say push for him even if we over pay slightly but he doesn't.

[1858 285]

It's now sounding like it's Fait Accompli that he's coming to us for our second pick... #32. Are we paying overs?

It that is the complete trade then yes.

[demoniac 1,333]

When you play goal square you should have at least some KP attributes or we may as well stick with PJ.

If Hale can stick his arms up in the air when marking he already has more KPP attributes than PJ.

[1858 285]

If Hale can stick his arms up in the air when marking he already has more KPP attributes than PJ.

No arguement but as per my original post if that is our benchmark for improvement in the context of trading our 2nd pick away then god help us.

[Jarka 767]

I did say theoretically. I was just trying to emphasise a point that he's not being recruited as a key forward, but to provide some structure to free up and protect our younger developing key forwards in Watts and Jurrah.

Hale's rucking ability is poor, and his stats back that opinion. If we're getting him as a ruckman we'll be very disappointed.

How will he protect our key forwards? The defenders will just put their best link man on him and use him to run the ball out of defence all day (or night).

I would hope he will get 1-2 goals per game

A return of one goal a game would be a virtual liability to the team because of how the opposition will xploit his weaknesses.

I would hope he provides a better ruck performance than PJ or anyone else we have

Good luck with that, up until now he hasn't demonstrated that he's capable of doing it on a regular basis, why would he do it for us?

If you can find a tree in the carpark to do that, fine

For all those who don't want Hale, what is your better alternative

You just answered your own question. Other than a one hundered year old oak I'd be more inclined to see who's available for trade or looking at mature age options around the country. The belief that David Hale is the only possible option is ludicrous.

One thing that still hasn't been answered by the pro-Halers is that why would Hale suddenly be able to produce a career best performance just because he joins us? For him to be a successful trade that is what he'll have to achieve. It's a bit arrogant to think like this.

[BAMF 4,353]

You have got to be kidding

Holland did a lot more than anyone around pick 21 in the 2003 draft and also plugged a hole for us.

So, no im not kidding.

[Kit Walker 225]

Pretty hard to judge any St Kilda forward or any particular forward strucure based on today's game for mine given that the Saints were absolutely smashed in the midfield.

Fair point. Looking at Collingwood though, I thought Chris Dawes played an important role for them today.

Only 10 touches, but took a few marks, kicked a couple of goals and made a contest every time the ball went near him. Hale is older but I think can do the same role but better, and has the extra string of being a decent ruckman to boot.

Pick 31 is well into speculative territory in a draft anyway and I think it's a reasonable trade. An offer of 47+ (whatever our third round pick is) would just be an insult and not worth bothering about.

[Grandson of a gun 276]

No arguement but as per my original post if that is our benchmark for improvement in the context of trading our 2nd pick away then god help us.

Think you're missing the point. Have a look at the big picture.

If they do trade for him, it is with a short term view to allow the long term development and improvement of our other young players instead of having to rush them and risk injuries, burnout etc.

A 7 foot bloke in the forward line still commands a decent backman from the opposition which in turn means that Watts, Jurrah, Petterd, Green and co can hopefully get the lesser defenders and therefore become more dangerous.

It also allows Gawn, Fitzy, Spencer time to develop and build their bodies and game time at Casey instead of being thrown to the lions because we have a lack of other options.

I trust the FD in whatever decision they make.

[1858 285]

Think you're missing the point. Have a look at the big picture.

On the contrary, you're missing the point. Giving away our 2nd pick to do this is madness when it isn't necessary. This years draft is still a massive part of our big picture.

I know exactly why the club is going after Hale - I'm not questioning the rationale, simply the unnecessary price.

My point is that if we give away our 2nd pick then go after a competent stock ruckman who can share the load with Jamar more so (forward and ruck). This means Jamar goes forward more, lasts longer and we have an extra ruckman on our books going into the future instead of someone who has limited application other than sticking them somewhere and playing a role that a stock ruckman can play. There is a big possibility of Hale becoming another Newton where as (unless they are worse than PJ which won't happen) a stock ruckman will at least be useful in the stopages.

There is a big contingency here on Hale being effective up forward and our future ruckmen coming on board the way we hope and also that Jamar won't get injured. I'm definitely looking at the big picture not idealising some 5 minute role to give us all a fuzzy that we don't have to rely on PJ. We need another competent stock ruckman and if we do settle for Hale then no more than a 3rd and a fringe please.

[daisycutter 29,616]

When you play goal square you should have at least some KP attributes or we may as well stick with PJ.

Hard to know what all the options in trade week will be but I'd go with a stock ruckman who will earn his keep at the stopages and then perform the role you mention in the square (which shouldn't be too hard going by your definition of the said role). If we end up opting for Hale (which it sounds like we are) then 3rd rounder and a fringe player (nothing more). If Hale promised something more over a stock ruckman up forward then I'd say push for him even if we over pay slightly but he doesn't.

With the expected reduction of the interchange, it is expected the stock-ruckman role will change as far as the 2nd ruckman is concerned.

Rucks will change more often in the forward line than interchange bench, and this should suit the Russian. The Russian will probably ruck at least 2/3 rds of the time, meaning the 2nd ruck will spend 2/3 or more playing on the forward line. This is hardly the profile of a "stock-ruckman". We need a tall who can pinch-ruck effectively but knows how to play a tall forward role but in our case not a key-forward role. Furthermore this is a temporary role for a couple of years until our own young talls develop. I think the role of a traditional second ruck could be numbered if the changes go through. The FD seem to think they need this type of player.

So, is Hale the best available and affordable mature option going around?

This can only be answered if compared to the alternatives. Who are the alternatives? And not "stock-ruckmen" please.

I think Hale has shown the potential (for what we need) and is worth a risk, but obviously many others think he is a spud.

So lets discuss and compare alternatives

BTW I agree re the 3rd rounder + fringe player as the ideal price. North may even cover some of his contract salary??

[1858 285]

With the expected reduction of the interchange, it is expected the stock-ruckman role will change as far as the 2nd ruckman is concerned.

Rucks will change more often in the forward line than interchange bench, and this should suit the Russian. The Russian will probably ruck at least 2/3 rds of the time, meaning the 2nd ruck will spend 2/3 or more playing on the forward line. This is hardly the profile of a "stock-ruckman". We need a tall who can pinch-ruck effectively but knows how to play a tall forward role but in our case not a key-forward role. Furthermore this is a temporary role for a couple of years until our own young talls develop. I think the role of a traditional second ruck could be numbered if the changes go through. The FD seem to think they need this type of player.

I appreciate that, the game will probably change. But what it also means is that Jamar will have a bigger load on him than ever before - he'll be on the field longer which means that the weight of his job needs to be diluted. The role of the traditional second ruck may change but it doesn't change the fact that we still need one. Further more (another parroted point of mine) Hale has shown nothing up forward to show he is any better an option up forward than a "stock" or "second" ruck anyway. We should look at maximising our options not limiting them.

So, is Hale the best available and affordable mature option going around?

This can only be answered if compared to the alternatives. Who are the alternatives? And not "stock-ruckmen" please.

None of us know the exact answer to this - all we can do is discuss trades on merit. With all due respect I know that I have parroted "stock-ruckmen" and many people reading my posts may be yawning on that point but the reality is that there is no better option than that as it stands. I would be surprised if there aren't some decent rucks on the market during the week but if there are then I would opt that way - I don't really know what extra you need me to say on that.

I think Hale has shown the potential (for what we need) and is worth a risk, but obviously many others think he is a spud.

So lets discuss and compare alternatives

BTW I agree re the 3rd rounder + fringe player as the ideal price. North may even cover some of his contract salary??

You see, this is the problem, I think many posters are actually trivialising what we need. Our ruck stocks (regardless of interchange rule changes) are very slim. In dealing with this I beleive we end up dealing (in large part) with the forward problem.

It's nice that you actually agree with the price Hale is worth (which goes some way to showing how much value you think he brings) even though you disagree on other matters.

[daisycutter 29,616]

You see, this is the problem, I think many posters are actually trivialising what we need. Our ruck stocks (regardless of interchange rule changes) are very slim. In dealing with this I beleive we end up dealing (in large part) with the forward problem.

It's nice that you actually agree with the price Hale is worth (which goes some way to showing how much value you think he brings) even though you disagree on other matters.

I don't think Hale is optimal, just a possible improvement on where we are now. Yes its a risk (obviously)

I think we have to find someone. We can't go on with PJ. Spencer would be hopeless in the forward line (and I don't think he'll ever make it). Gawn/Fitzpatrick too raw and who knows how they'll turn out.

Until someone comes up with another specific name (not a young draftee) I've got to stick with Hale

My real main point is we have to "do something". The Russian won't survive another 2010 and then we will really be in the shizen.

I must get these rose-colored glasses looked at

[1858 285]

Until someone comes up with another specific name (not a young draftee) I've got to stick with Hale

My real main point is we have to "do something". The Russian won't survive another 2010 and then we will really be in the shizen.

I agree that PJ is diabolical and the Russian needs help - nobody disagrees with that.

If it comes down to Hale being the only option then go for him but if they want our 2nd then I'd leave it alone and bite the bullet with PJ for just 1 more yr. It is a judgement call but it's a cost/benefit analysis - we rotate Jamar and PJ 60/40 which throws the gauntlett down to PJ and take on a good prospect with pick 32.

I must get these rose-colored glasses looked at

que?

[daisycutter 29,616]

must get these rose-colored glasses looked at

que?

meaning my view of hale may be a bit coloured (wishful)???

[1858 285]

meaning my view of hale may be a bit coloured (wishful)???

Not necessarily mate, perhaps you've lowered the bar a bit but it's all opinion at the end of the day.

The reality is that we can encapsulate this whole debate to a judgement call. Most posters wouldn't trade pick 12 for Hale. Most posters would be happy to trade pick 47 for him.

Somewhere in between (pick 32) is the judgement call where there isn't a general consensus and I tend to think that the differences of opinion that have been well thought out and conveyed in this thread (by both sides) are ultimately shaped around that pick. Personally I'm a no and many seem to be a yes. I respect every one elses opinions and there is no point trying to change the way people think on the matter. I won't comment any more in this thread as I've bored people to death but I've given my reasons why I'm a no at pick 32 and accept that my opinion counts for didley squat.

The other possibility is that we have a subsequent trade which fetches us a another pick which may slightly change the scenario.

If we take on Hale no matter the pick I'll wish the club all the best and hope he can make an impact. Looking forward to trade week and season 2011.

[daisycutter 29,616]

Not necessarily mate, perhaps you've lowered the bar a bit but it's all opinion at the end of the day.

The reality is that we can encapsulate this whole debate to a judgement call. Most posters wouldn't trade pick 12 for Hale. Most posters would be happy to trade pick 47 for him.

Somewhere in between (pick 32) is the judgement call where there isn't a general consensus and I tend to think that the differences of opinion that have been well thought out and conveyed in this thread (by both sides) are ultimately shaped around that pick. Personally I'm a no and many seem to be a yes. I respect every one elses opinions and there is no point trying to change the way people think on the matter. I won't comment any more in this thread as I've bored people to death but I've given my reasons why I'm a no at pick 32 and accept that my opinion counts for didley squat.

The other possibility is that we have a subsequent trade which fetches us a another pick which may slightly change the scenario.

If we take on Hale no matter the pick I'll wish the club all the best and hope he can make an impact. Looking forward to trade week and season 2011.

Fair comment

Have to trust the FD to make the best decision

[Hannabal 4]

I'm not convinced that Hale is a good ruck

You're not convinced he's a good ruckman because you can't remember. And nor can I. He hasn't rucked much for the last few years, so there's not a lot to go off. Our MC will have a far better idea of his ruck capabilities.

I'm not convinced that he's being recruited mainly as a key forward. For me, it's equally about his rucking and the structural changes it allows.

[rpfc 28,430]

Been unable to post for a couple of days so forgive me for making this thread longer.

Hale/or any 'back-up ruck who can play forward' would have other benefits that are more difficult to see. Some of these are obvious and others are little side benefits:

1. Jamar gets to go forward more. We all know how dangerous he can be and the pack will fall when he is in it.

2. Decent ruck when Jamar is forward. We all cringed when Sylvia or Dunn went into the ruck.

3. Colin Sylvia doesn't have to worry about getting beaten up by someone with 20cms and 20kgs on him.

4. Pressure taken off Jurrah and Watts. If someone else is at the top of the square, the pack isn't on top of Watts or Jurrah. Knees suddenly go into Hale and not Watts or Jurrah. Someone has to contest the long ball in - I would prefer those two didn't - not yet at least.

5. Adds something to our forward structure. Jurrah or Watts might get the third defender and Green the fourth. Or this back-up ruck/Jamar may get someone they can monster.

6. We won't run Jamar into the ground. While I don't think Jamar will become more injury prone with overwork, I do think that his freshness suffered toward the end of the season.

And I don't think that comparisons to St Kilda are really fair - they play a more dour style of game. Very slow. And when their midfield isn't playing well their forwards creep up to the wing - exposing any tall forwards. We have to trust Trengove, Scully, McKenzie, Grimes, et al to win enough of the footy and get in down there quick.

[titan_uranus 25,020]

One thing that still hasn't been answered by the pro-Halers is that why would Hale suddenly be able to produce a career best performance just because he joins us? For him to be a successful trade that is what he'll have to achieve. It's a bit arrogant to think like this.

And it's equally pessimistic to suggest he has no chance whatsoever of improving.

Players often improve when given a fresh start. Look at Ben McGlynn and Josh Kennedy. Couldn't get a game for Hawthorn, both turned into vital players for Sydney.

FWIW, what do you think of Maric?

[Jarka 767]

You're not convinced he's a good ruckman because you can't remember. And nor can I. He hasn't rucked much for the last few years, so there's not a lot to go off. Our MC will have a far better idea of his ruck capabilities.

I'm not convinced that he's being recruited mainly as a key forward. For me, it's equally about his rucking and the structural changes it allows.

He rucked in round in round 21 against the Eagles when Goldstein didn't play. Don't tell me what I can or cannot remember. Terrible would probably be overrating his effort.

How can a player who struggles to hold a regular spot allow us to make structural changes? Hale's challenge is to perform consistently at AFL level, he hasn't done this for three years, you yourself have admitted this.

For a second round pick trade in a strong draft I would expect a player to walk into our starting 22 and be an immediate contributor.

Hale has demonstrated that he's unlikely to do this as a forward and it's completely unknown as a ruck, although his recent past performance would suggest that this would also be unlikely.

[Jarka 767]

And it's equally pessimistic to suggest he has no chance whatsoever of improving.

Hale is 27 next year. He doesn't have the agility of Dean Cox and he's not a power big man like Jamar. He's demonstrated a trend of slowing down over the last couple of seasons while the game has continued to speed up.

Let's look at the recent successful teams, how many big logs like Hale do they carry? Collingwood had Fraser and will probably delist him, Saints have Kosi and he was a liability on GF day.

Even if you're correct, what you're basically admitting is that it's an equal money bet that he'll fail or succeed. Those odds are not acceptable for a second round pick in a strong draft that will have good depth well into the the third round.

Players often improve when given a fresh start. Look at Ben McGlynn and Josh Kennedy. Couldn't get a game for Hawthorn, both turned into vital players for Sydney.

Just as many players either perform at the same level or are worse. To say that Hale will be successful because of what happened to Josh Kennedy is ridiculous.

FWIW, what do you think of Maric?

That's a different topic, why bring it up here?

[Red Sox 2]

I'm not happy at all about the prospect of us giving up a 2nd round draft pick for Hale. Makes me think it's likely that both Warnock & Maric will be involved in trades now to allow us to still have our 2nd pick around the 30 mark?

Would you be happy then?

Really, it would be Hale for Warnock (Maric wont be worth a second round pick) and we would be left with the same pick/ This is how I would hope it works out.

Very happy with that.

[titan_uranus 25,020]

For a second round pick trade in a strong draft I would expect a player to walk into our starting 22 and be an immediate contributor.

First of all, have you considered that the FD are offering a second round pick because there's a potential trade on the table that gets us a second round pick back again (such as letting Maric or Warnock go)?

Second of all, do you honestly expect our second pick in this year's draft to play in Round 1? He won't.

Just as many players either perform at the same level or are worse. To say that Hale will be successful because of what happened to Josh Kennedy is ridiculous.

But to say he's no chance at all is equally ridiculous.

That's a different topic, why bring it up here?

Many on here seem to think Maric is the bees' knees, despite no output at all at AFL level. I was wondering if you thought he will still end up making it.

[beelzebub 23,376]

So many seem desperate NOT to use a second round pick for Hale ( or such ) . I have to ask these folk what exactly are we going to use it for anyway ? Ist pick for someone from the draft..a given..type? anyones guess even MFC dont know til they see whos there at 12. We have a stack of kids still in mothballs.. Any pick form second round is just another youngen wholl have to develop and be 2 years away..maybe.

The club is now well and truly in the here and now. It wants somne ready to go types to formalise the structure it has in mind.

Very Likely 2nd round is best utilised to get a player for 2011...not 2013