Our Ruck Stocks

[titan_uranus 25,020]

What do people think of Jamar, Johnson, Spencer, Meesen and Martin? Who should we keep? Which are the brightest prospects?

For me, I think Jamar and Spencer are the way to go. Meesen showed a bit until he got injured, but I haven't seen enough yet.

Martin does OK in the ruck, but I feel he's wasted there. I'd prefer him to play forward.

Barring an outstanding contract, Johnson goes at the end of this year.

[Carn dees 108]

Would like to see more of meesen.

Martin goes ok in the ruck but id be keeping him for his versatility.

Jamar well depends if you think his worth keeping considering his age and weather his trade value is worth much.

Spencer hmm not sure too early to rate, his debut game was great or was that in the nab cup? Youd defo give him more time on the list.

P.J well i for one accually dont mind P.J, His like another onballer gets alot of the ball though the way he uses is definetly a worry at times.

[Deestroy All 14,266]

I'm liking Martin in the ruck more and more. He has a great leap, and I think his tap work will get better as he learns the trade. I think the game is swinging more towards his style of ruckman too.

There's still a lot of development to go in Stef, I think he'll get better than he is now, which is decent, he'll polish up a bit. And there's the comfort of knowing his versatility if you need to plug a hole at either end.

Jamar has been a revelation, that one game against King and Gardiner was enough to see he can actually play the game, and every game this season he's been very good. So he's no. 1 unless something falls into our lap.

Only 1 more week to go watching PJ fumble everything I think. It's a shame, I kinda like him, but he's just not cutting it after that rare patch of form he once showed.

I'd keep Meesen for depth and development.

I've gone off Spence a bit, just think the game is far too quick for that type now, if you're 200+cm, you need to be damn good, I can't see him ever being damn good.

[pantaloons 2,019]

Jamar's certainly the pick at the moment. I like Martin's versatility, but I just don't think he's a forward at all. I'd much rather see him moving between the backline and ruck. I don't see much of a future for PJ or Meesen at Melbourne. Spencer needs to be persisted with. Unless we're going to start picking ruckmen in the draft, we're going to need to develop Spencer. When was the last time Melbourne picked a ruckman in the national draft? Of the current 5 ruckmen we have, two have come via trade, two off the rookie list and one in the PSD. White was obtained via trade and from memory Jolly and Simmons I think were rookie listers. I'm just thinking out loud here really, but it does illustrate a couple of things to me for starters: Firstly, that part of our current ruck situation lies with the lack of drafting ruckmen, but also the nature of the ruck position and the amount of time and patience required when dealing with ruckmen, hence the alternate routes to Melbourne our ruckmen have taken. With this in mind, I'm persisting with Spencer. If Meesen shows something next year then I'd put him in the same boat, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Ryan Dee 140]

What does Spencer offer? He is young and could turn out to be a decent ruckman....that's all people are hanging their hat on atm. He can't kick to save his life, he is very lanky and awkward but he can get his hands to it in the taps. So all he offers really is his Tap work atm.

Messen has the same body type as Spencer but is a little more developed. He can get the ball around the ground and in the few games he did play he took some nice strong marks. He is 2 years younger then PJ so in 2 years can we see him doing a better job than PJ?

PJ is up against Jamar. You either have one or the other and Jamar is the go.

[Doggo 32]

I've been a big PJ fan since under-18's and have always thought he had the scope to becoming a top-line player, but he's gone a long way to losing me in recent times. I'm hoping that he can bounce back and put his poor performances behind him next year, with his year to run on contract. Funnily enough, his ruckwork has improved out-of-sight, but his decision-making and skills, strengths of his in previous seasons, have regressed. He's not taking any contested marks, a weakness of his that was seemingly rectified last year, but has also since regressed. He's a big "confidence" player, and this season, barring a 4-week purple patch when he took over the lone-hand in the ruck, it's clear that his confidence has been well down. Played well last week on Sandilands, and seems to perform best when the FD have shown faith in him and given him a big task (his job on Dean Cox this year was 1st-class). Is good depth at the very least.

Spencer is as raw as sashimi at the moment, but has the makings of becoming a good ruckmen in the future, but could also just as easily be a flop. Gangly and ungainly, but has surprisingly good speed for his size, and his best quality is he's very competitive. If he can iron out his kicking and learn not to telegraph what he's going to do with the ball well before he does it, can develop into a good player. But at this stage, it's probably too early to call. We won't see what he's really capable of until at least 2012-2013.

Martin, although a late-starter and drafted as an athlete, is a very smart sportsman and has adapted to playing ruck quite well. The first 4 or 5 weeks we saw him in the centre circle he looked terrible, but he's obviously being coached quite well because he hasn't looked too bad since. Not a ruckman for mine though, best utilised back or forward. Good to know he can play there though if injury strikes the others.

Meesen, not convinced at all to be honest. I thought he showed some good signs in his 4 matches this year, but hardly set the world on fire, and was carved up by Mark Blake against Geelong. His ruckwork is poor and for someone with his 'elite endurance' he doesn't make good enough position around the ground, and he doesn't use the footy well. Can take a strong mark though. He's quickly gone from barely being VFL level to being factored into most people's future teams, but I think he's got a lot more to prove. Make or break for him in 2010, along with PJ.

Jamar has been the big surprise packet, but is terribly injury prone and not the smartest or most skillful player. Have not been a fan in the past, but there's no doubt his ruckwork and contested marking are clearly the best of our current lot. In his comeback matches, he was working harder and moving more freely than i'd ever seen in his career before, and his contested work and tackling is first-rate for a big man. Is the #1 ruckman at the club at the minute, and his 5 goals yesterday was a welcome surprise. Could be an even bigger improvement next year if he can stay on the park. Never thought i'd say this, but we must keep him on our list next season (if rumours of his wanting to leave are true), or be well renumerated.

[jumbo returns 6,741]

Is there room for a lumbering, slow, poorly skilled player like Spencer on the list?

Meesen doesn't inspire me either.

PJ can play, he's mobile and very skilled, albeit a clanger king, at times.

Jamar's a tank - must hold onto.

[cooko 124]

we really need to trade for someone better.. but..

PJ - get rid of him (was good for our tanking plan..but not when we actually want to win)

Jamar - Probably the best we have.. keep.. but if we get a good offer.. trade!

Mees - has potential.. was playing fairly well before injury!

Spencer - still young.. give him a go

Martin - not the biggest fan.. but still young..i still prefer him in the backline where he doesnt have to kick at goal

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Probably our biggest concern going forward.

We have the pieces for the forwards and the backs have come along, the draft will go a long way to boosting our midfield.

We have one decent ruckman on the list and that is Jamar. Absolutely must be a priority to rookie one or two.

Spencer has a big heart but simply cannot kick, I love the guy but it is football. It was an eperiment that was worth a crack but I cannot see him becoming a senior regular. Johnson half-way between ruckman and wingman and does neither role particularly well. Meesen was ok in his couple of games but doesn't appear to be the answer.

[rpfc 28,433]

We should have a versatile back-up as I don't think we can carry two pure ruckmen.

That's where Martin has a lock. PJ is a better kick but can't play in as many positions as Martin, and is not as competitive a person as Martin in the ruck.

Jamar, Meesen, and Spencer are going for the same spot.

Jamar could be a decent first ruck for the next 5 years but if the rumours of him moving on are true we will need Meesen and Spencer around.

My plan: trade PJ for a pick upgrade and elevate Spencer.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Barring an outstanding contract, Johnson goes at the end of this year.

There is a a lot of hatred for PJ on this site, which I think along with players like Sylvia, shows how little posters are aware.

PJ is on a level with Jamar, even with his 5 goal haul. PJ's a better all round player, Jamar is clearly the best in ruck contests.

Personally, I don't think either are premiership ruckmen, but then other than Cox in recent years, I don't think there's any such thing as a premiership ruckman anymore. Not one who wins the flag for you. They seem like a nesessary, but hardly match turning player in a list. If we have, say, 6 players taking the biggest money in the list, I'd rather it be a defender, a couple of forwards, and 3 mids...

This is, however, my opinion. If you think ruckmen are vital, then Jamar stays for 5 years more, with Meesen and Spencer given chances to come on. If they don't, you either recruit or trade for another to learn in his shadow.

If you don't rate ruckmen, then you keep PJ and Jamar as the guys in the right age group for the next few years. There's no big names on the market of the right age group.

So all in all, I have faith PJ will turn it around. He played a good season last year, and has knocked off both Sandilands and Cox this year, as well as playing other good games. There's no doubt he has work to do, but then so do so many other MFC listed players.

Meesen needs another season without injury, but he showed something this year. Spence is just a kid.

There's some hope, but honestly all four names (Martin is useful in other areas too) could very easily not be on the list in 3 years.

[Swampfox 190]

I would think we are more than likley to need all of them for next years attempt to move up the ladder a bit

I would definatley be looking at a ruckman in the late draft picks or even trade for one

This years draft seems to be all about midfielders which will be no deeper than the second round talentwise

Other than Butcher their doesnt seem to be a quality tall in the draft

This years pre season will be important for us to build some body strength into players like Watts , Morton etc

[MadAsHell 4,212]

What do people think of Jamar, Johnson, Spencer, Meesen and Martin? Who should we keep? Which are the brightest prospects?

For me, I think Jamar and Spencer are the way to go. Meesen showed a bit until he got injured, but I haven't seen enough yet.

Martin does OK in the ruck, but I feel he's wasted there. I'd prefer him to play forward.

Barring an outstanding contract, Johnson goes at the end of this year.

Very good thread, for me we need to cut one of the ruckmen at seasons end and is a difficult decision to be made.

Jamar for mine is our number one ruckmen and do not want us to loose, but if he has requested a trade to South Australia it would solve the problem. Jamar & pick 34 could land us another top 20 pick however if he wants to stay we should definatly hold onto him. This year when he's played has been his best IMO.

Martin we have to keep obviously because of his versatility. He's a good back up ruckman to have in our 22 but can also go back and play in defence or go forward. A lot to like about Martin and he is the only 1 out of the 5 I wouldn't consider getting rid of.

Johnson could possibly be the man to go, he will never be our number 1 ruckman but if Martin is ever injured I feel he'd be the best to bring into the 22 versatility wise. Can ruck and play forward and we've seen Bailey is trying to develop his defensive game by playing him back occassionaly. Keep for mine.

Meesen at the start of this year I would have said is an automatic to be delisted at seasons end. But those 4 games he played before he got injured I thought were very impressive. He was a top 10 draft pick back in the day so obviously was deemed to be a star in the making in his junior days, could potentialy lead our ruck stocks in years to come. I say keep.

Spencer has shown a bit that is true but I'm not sure he's shown enough. I know most people rated Spencer ahead of Meesen at the start of the year but Meesen has over taken him for mine. Saw Spencer still gets pushed off the ball a little to easily and although he could still develop tough decisions need to be made.

Verdict: For me Spenccer's the one to be delisted however if Jamar wishes to be traded then that would be enough to save Spencer and in turn would see him promoted onto our senior list. So Spencer to be delisted or Jamar to be traded. All comes down to what Jamar wants to do.

Edited August 23, 2009 by Tall Defence

[Hellaintabadplacetobe 4,294]

I would think we are more than likley to need all of them for next years attempt to move up the ladder a bit

I would definatley be looking at a ruckman in the late draft picks or even trade for one

This years draft seems to be all about midfielders which will be no deeper than the second round talentwise

Other than Butcher their doesnt seem to be a quality tall in the draft

This years pre season will be important for us to build some body strength into players like Watts , Morton etc

Tend to agree that we need them all for another season unless we get an excellent trade deal with jamar if he is keen to move on but as far as I am aware this is simply a rumour at this stage. 2010 will be another year of experimentation, although we will all be hoping for a minimum 7 to 8 wins next year so I am all for seeing all these guys run around for 1 more year to see who has the most to offer when things get serious in 2 years time. It would be a crying shame to cut 1 of them now and watch them excel elsewhere.

I really like PJ but I would think he would be the most nervous to retain his spot on the list. If Jamar wants out however, we must keep PJ. Meeson has another year to prove himself otherwise he is a certain delist next year. Martin is a definite keeper because he will be the most versatile of all of them. Spence is still an experiment at this early stage. Has a lot of mongrel in him which is good to see! Got Kreuzer a ripper shepherd yesterday that was heard clearly on the 3rd level!

I feel there is plenty of upside in all of them but next year will be defining for each players future

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

There is a a lot of hatred for PJ on this site, which I think along with players like Sylvia, shows how little posters are aware.

I have yet to see hatred directed toward any footballer on this site. BTW, Sylvia has something. PJ...well

PJ is on a level with Jamar, even with his 5 goal haul. PJ's a better all round player, Jamar is clearly the best in ruck contests.

This sentence may prove your point about awareness.

PJ should feel lucky his contract does not expire this year. Jamar with his five goal is probably 4 goals ahead of any time PJ has gone forward. Raises a question about all round ability. In limited opportunities, Jamr has shown himself to be a better ruck and a better option up forward.

May be PJ is a good full back? Uh Oh wait.....

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Very good thread, for me we need to cut one of the ruckmen at seasons end and is a difficult decision to be made.

......

For the record, PJ and Meesen are contracted in 2010.

Jamar is our No 1 ruck but has had a few injuries. Clearly in front of the other. IMO he stays.

Meesen - Unknown quantity with a potentially career threatening injury. I am not sure if he is even doing training at the moment. No certainty.

PJ- All round whatever but is not a ruckman.

And you want to get rid of Spencer?

We are short rucks even if we keep him.

[Redleg 40,925]

I've been a big PJ fan since under-18's and have always thought he had the scope to becoming a top-line player, but he's gone a long way to losing me in recent times. I'm hoping that he can bounce back and put his poor performances behind him next year, with his year to run on contract. Funnily enough, his ruckwork has improved out-of-sight, but his decision-making and skills, strengths of his in previous seasons, have regressed. He's not taking any contested marks, a weakness of his that was seemingly rectified last year, but has also since regressed. He's a big "confidence" player, and this season, barring a 4-week purple patch when he took over the lone-hand in the ruck, it's clear that his confidence has been well down. Played well last week on Sandilands, and seems to perform best when the FD have shown faith in him and given him a big task (his job on Dean Cox this year was 1st-class). Is good depth at the very least.

Spencer is as raw as sashimi at the moment, but has the makings of becoming a good ruckmen in the future, but could also just as easily be a flop. Gangly and ungainly, but has surprisingly good speed for his size, and his best quality is he's very competitive. If he can iron out his kicking and learn not to telegraph what he's going to do with the ball well before he does it, can develop into a good player. But at this stage, it's probably too early to call. We won't see what he's really capable of until at least 2012-2013.

Martin, although a late-starter and drafted as an athlete, is a very smart sportsman and has adapted to playing ruck quite well. The first 4 or 5 weeks we saw him in the centre circle he looked terrible, but he's obviously being coached quite well because he hasn't looked too bad since. Not a ruckman for mine though, best utilised back or forward. Good to know he can play there though if injury strikes the others.

Meesen, not convinced at all to be honest. I thought he showed some good signs in his 4 matches this year, but hardly set the world on fire, and was carved up by Mark Blake against Geelong. His ruckwork is poor and for someone with his 'elite endurance' he doesn't make good enough position around the ground, and he doesn't use the footy well. Can take a strong mark though. He's quickly gone from barely being VFL level to being factored into most people's future teams, but I think he's got a lot more to prove. Make or break for him in 2010, along with PJ.

Jamar has been the big surprise packet, but is terribly injury prone and not the smartest or most skillful player. Have not been a fan in the past, but there's no doubt his ruckwork and contested marking are clearly the best of our current lot. In his comeback matches, he was working harder and moving more freely than i'd ever seen in his career before, and his contested work and tackling is first-rate for a big man. Is the #1 ruckman at the club at the minute, and his 5 goals yesterday was a welcome surprise. Could be an even bigger improvement next year if he can stay on the park. Never thought i'd say this, but we must keep him on our list next season (if rumours of his wanting to leave are true), or be well renumerated.

Good summary.

[george_on_the_outer 7,591]

One wonders if some people actually watch us play during the season before they start typing their opinions.......

The FD has a lot more inside knowledge of the various abilities of our rucks, but it is astounding that people here are writing off Spencer on the basis of what?

4 games total? Or have we forgotten that he was injured for a considerable part of the season. The guy is a 203cm rookie who has yet to put on any meat on his frame. Of course he will be pushed around. Yet he has some real mongrel about him that has been missing in our rucks since O'Dwyer. Yesterday he destroyed Kruezer in the tap-outs and his second efforts and attack at the man in the middle were what was needed.

Hitouts to advantage: Spencer 19% Kruezer 13% Cloke 0%. I would suggest Kruezers successful stint was when Spencer was off the ground.

His kicking isn't great...granted. But is Jamar's? As Redleg pointed out to me pre-season, it it because he doesn't drop the ball, but places it onto his boot with his long arms. Yesterday for the first time I saw that he was dropping it, so it is something being worked on.

Meesen has positives? I hope so, but again on the basis of what? Again 4 underwhelming games this year from someone picked in the top 10 in the draft. He is certainly not as aggressive as Spencer. I will stick with what the FD thinks, but at the moment the rookie Spencer has shown much more .

Jamar and Johnson...well we all know what we get, and we all know there are deficiencies. But consider that Hawthorn has Bailey, Campbell, Taylor, Lowden and Renouf on their list. None of them are world beaters either, but perhaps they are thinking that these days you actually need to have 4+ rucks on the list........especially when they snagged a Premiership using them, however little they contributed.

[MadAsHell 4,212]

We are short rucks even if we keep him.

I wouldn't have thought so. If we were to get rid of Spencer that would mean we'd still have Jamar, Meesen, Johnson and Martin as ruck options, then if we rookie drafted another that would give us 5 ruck options. I can't think of to many clubs that have more then 5 ruck options in their squad?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I wouldn't have thought so. If we were to get rid of Spencer that would mean we'd still have Jamar, Meesen, Johnson and Martin as ruck options, then if we rookie drafted another that would give us 5 ruck options. I can't think of to many clubs that have more then 5 ruck options in their squad?

This year profoundly proved how shallow our ruck stocks are

Jamar and Meesen are subject to injury. Meesen has yet to show he can cut it. This year has shown PJ can carry the can or cut the mustard consistently at this level. Martin???

If we rookie someone, they are going to younger, greener and less experienced than Spencer who we have put 2 years into . Why cut Spencer?

Besides as rookie you can only play if there is a serious injury to a listed player. You really only have 4 ruck options. And this year has proven thats not enough.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I've been a big PJ fan since under-18's and have always thought he had the scope to becoming a top-line player, but he's gone a long way to losing me in recent times. I'm hoping that he can bounce back and put his poor performances behind him next year, with his year to run on contract. Funnily enough, his ruckwork has improved out-of-sight, but his decision-making and skills, strengths of his in previous seasons, have regressed. He's not taking any contested marks, a weakness of his that was seemingly rectified last year, but has also since regressed. He's a big "confidence" player, and this season, barring a 4-week purple patch when he took over the lone-hand in the ruck, it's clear that his confidence has been well down. Played well last week on Sandilands, and seems to perform best when the FD have shown faith in him and given him a big task (his job on Dean Cox this year was 1st-class). Is good depth at the very least.

Spencer is as raw as sashimi at the moment, but has the makings of becoming a good ruckmen in the future, but could also just as easily be a flop. Gangly and ungainly, but has surprisingly good speed for his size, and his best quality is he's very competitive. If he can iron out his kicking and learn not to telegraph what he's going to do with the ball well before he does it, can develop into a good player. But at this stage, it's probably too early to call. We won't see what he's really capable of until at least 2012-2013.

Martin, although a late-starter and drafted as an athlete, is a very smart sportsman and has adapted to playing ruck quite well. The first 4 or 5 weeks we saw him in the centre circle he looked terrible, but he's obviously being coached quite well because he hasn't looked too bad since. Not a ruckman for mine though, best utilised back or forward. Good to know he can play there though if injury strikes the others.

Meesen, not convinced at all to be honest. I thought he showed some good signs in his 4 matches this year, but hardly set the world on fire, and was carved up by Mark Blake against Geelong. His ruckwork is poor and for someone with his 'elite endurance' he doesn't make good enough position around the ground, and he doesn't use the footy well. Can take a strong mark though. He's quickly gone from barely being VFL level to being factored into most people's future teams, but I think he's got a lot more to prove. Make or break for him in 2010, along with PJ.

Jamar has been the big surprise packet, but is terribly injury prone and not the smartest or most skillful player. Have not been a fan in the past, but there's no doubt his ruckwork and contested marking are clearly the best of our current lot. In his comeback matches, he was working harder and moving more freely than i'd ever seen in his career before, and his contested work and tackling is first-rate for a big man. Is the #1 ruckman at the club at the minute, and his 5 goals yesterday was a welcome surprise. Could be an even bigger improvement next year if he can stay on the park. Never thought i'd say this, but we must keep him on our list next season (if rumours of his wanting to leave are true), or be well renumerated.

Pretty much agree with what you've said there Doggo. I'm starting to think of keeping PJ, as I was earlier wanting him gone. But now I see the game changing further towards speed & mobility in the big men, defensively very important & their ball use needs to be adequate at least.

This is where I'm now concerned about Spencer's kicking. Not saying get rid of him, to soon to call. But I'd keep all 4 for the moment, with a new contract for the Russian, (2 years).

IMO, 4 rucks on a list is one too short, (Martin, I consider Tall swingman/ruck) we can fit one more developement ruck as a rookie.

I would certainly look at someone like Craig from SA-U18s.

[Jaded No More 68,915]

4 games total? Or have we forgotten that he was injured for a considerable part of the season. The guy is a 203cm rookie who has yet to put on any meat on his frame. Of course he will be pushed around. Yet he has some real mongrel about him that has been missing in our rucks since O'Dwyer. Yesterday he destroyed Kruezer in the tap-outs and his second efforts and attack at the man in the middle were what was needed.

Hitouts to advantage: Spencer 19% Kruezer 13% Cloke 0%. I would suggest Kruezers successful stint was when Spencer was off the ground.

His kicking isn't great...granted. But is Jamar's?

I agree 100%.

Spencer has the biggest scope for improvement out of the 4 ruckmen currently on our list.

It took Jamar 7 years to kick 5 goals in the AFL. I doubt it will take Spencer that long to come of age.

He needs 15kg and 2 years before we can start seeing what he can do. For now, he has shown enough to tell me that he'll be a better ruck prospect than PJ and maybe even Meesen.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

I have yet to see hatred directed toward any footballer on this site.

Cam Bruce said hi...

I'll rephrase... disdain? dislike? disrespect? Whatever. You know what I'm talking about. Let's not split hairs.

BTW, Sylvia has something. PJ...well

Disagree... That's hardly news. But I will concede that one of those is a dangerous talent, the other is serviceable. But then it's like comparing Ablett to Blake. Why would you do it?

PJ should feel lucky his contract does not expire this year.

Maybe. But just because he had a less than great year doesn't mean he was a certainty to be delisted. I would say he should feel lucky there's not 2-3 very good ruck prospects on the list. But then, I would hope one bad season following one good season isn't enough to write a player off for good.

Jamar with his five goal is probably 4 goals ahead of any time PJ has gone forward. Raises a question about all round ability. In limited opportunities, Jamr has shown himself to be a better ruck and a better option up forward.

Oh Rhino...

Hang your head in shame. Jamar has "proven" nothing. PJ has kicked, I think, 3 in a game hasn't he? Manuka against the Swans? Also, he's never played as much time up forward as Jamar did on the weekend.. and CERTAINLY never with as much freedom. We both know how little defending there was going on on the weekend. Besides, all that aside, there's no WAY Jamar is a better all round kick that PJ.

I'm certain that he'd have gone with him on the same day, same delivery, same opposition, same blah blah blah.

So in the washup? You've told me nothing new. You don't rate PJ, I do. Why do we keep doing this, RR?

edit: Oh, and as for KP defender, I don't know that I'd put him one out against Hall, but he's played good footy as a rangey CHB. Not a LOT of ground time, but he has done it. The Brissy game last year, I think, he did some good things.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I'll rephrase... disdain? dislike? disrespect? Whatever. You know what I'm talking about. Let's not split hairs.

Then why the melodrama. Hatred is defined in Dictionary.com as "Intense animosity or hostility". The words you split hairs mean something much different.

Disagree... That's hardly news. But I will concede that one of those is a dangerous talent, the other is serviceable. But then it's like comparing Ablett to Blake. Why would you do it?

You raised Sylvia. I explained the frustration with him is the delivery of talent. With PJ its a matter of what he has to deliver

Maybe. But just because he had a less than great year doesn't mean he was a certainty to be delisted. I would say he should feel lucky there's not 2-3 very good ruck prospects on the list. But then, I would hope one bad season following one good season isn't enough to write a player off for good.

You complained that PJ lacks opportunity but he has been the only big man fit at some points this year. His true colours were shown. And a good year last year as the best 2nd ruckman in the competition

Hang your head in shame. Jamar has "proven" nothing. PJ has kicked, I think, 3 in a game hasn't he? Manuka against the Swans? Also, he's never played as much time up forward as Jamar did on the weekend.. and CERTAINLY never with as much freedom. We both know how little defending there was going on on the weekend. Besides, all that aside, there's no WAY Jamar is a better all round kick that PJ.

Hang my head in shame?? Really?? Wait for it. The most goals PJ has kicked in a game is 1. He has achieved that remarkable feat on no less than 17 occassions. Remarkable consistency. And for the record in three past games against Sydney he has kicked a total of 1.1.

Jamar kicks 5 goals zip in a game up forward against a team that is 5th on the ladder. Its a decent collect how ever way you want to deride it. And when you compare it PJ up forward well then.

edit: Oh, and as for KP defender, I don't know that I'd put him one out against Hall, but he's played good footy as a rangey CHB. Not a LOT of ground time, but he has done it. The Brissy game last year, I think, he did some good things.

Given we have Rivers, Frawley, Garland, Martin and Warnock up back I doubt it unless it was done recently for experimentation. I think your comment is an founded as your Manuka example. If anything PJ does often does not mind the opposing ruckman when they drift into the F50 and PJ has shown poor decision making done back and costly on the clanger.

So we know Jamar can ruck and can play forward. There a ??? about PJ in both areas. But we can be comforted in the fact that PJ is better all round kick than Jamar.

For two players who have both had limited game time.

Jamar 72 games 27 goals 10 points

PJ 63 games 17 goals 18 points.

Not conclusive but a reasonable indication Jamar is better kick where it counts.

[rpfc 28,433]

I will umpire this one: RR wins with a KO.

DD - PJ can do a lot of things, but none well.

Jamar can ruck well, play forward, and assert himself on contests.

PJ is a 6'10 winger-trying-to-play-ruck.