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I don't subscribe to the views of @JimmyGadson, @fr_ap and @dazzledavey36. If we had lost our finals by 5 goals each there would be serious cause for concern. But we didn't and the majority understand that fortune did not favour us during the finals nor in the lead up to them. It was a throw of the dice who won both our games. Even with a decimated forward line we were very competitive. Secondly, it's folly to suggest there isn't significant improvement to be had from players like Rivers, Bowey, Sparrow, Chandler, Kossie, JvR, Petty and McVee. That's one third of our current team who will improve and doesn't consider those playing at Casey. It also doesn't include two of the top tier of talents that we will secure this draft period (as it now stands). We have been seduced by the way we won the flag in 2021 where we thought we were significantly in front of the opposition. But we had everything running for us in terms of a settled team, no injuries to key players and a patch of form that was never sustainable. I'm bullish about next year. I don't think we've had much luck in the last two years and I think if we have normal fortune we are as good or better than anyone. We will have an influx of talent this year that our opponents will envy. As for depth it's funny isn't it. JJ was deemed by most to be very disappointing at the end of the season when he was given a good chance. Harmes couldn't get in the team and nor could Dunstan. Many called for Rivers, Bowey and McVee to be given runs in the midfield but recognized we are so strong in that area it was difficult to do. But now our mediocre depth midfield has been let go to allow for young talent we are exposed. Really? There are so many really good opportunities to improve next season. Natural growth, a settled forward line and the influx of two highly talented players. That's the flip side to the three I've mentioned above. I think there is room for optimism and frankly I can't see the point, as supporters, viewing it any other way.

The Pies won 3 finals by a combined 12 points. In 2021 we won 3 finals by a combined 190 and in 2022 Geelong won by a combined 158.... Wow everyone must be terrified of this unstoppable Pies team.

Spargo could solve world peace, but Picket Fence would still have him behind Idi Amin, Pol Pot and Bin Laden in any ratings scale

We have the earliest pick in the draft of this year's finalists and apart from GWS, we have two before the rest. None of the other finalists have added anyone of major significance, outside ironically of Sydney with Grundy. Henry, Schultz, Ratugolea, Doedee, Adams - there's a reasonable chance that McAdam makes an equal impact, apart from Grundy. We haven't lost any best 23, only depth. As @Slartibartfast says, a third of the best 23 is young and has the scope for significant improvements and we don't have anyone on the brink of their career. It's reasonable to expect that we get an AFL contribution from a couple of Fullarton, Laurie, Howes, Sestan, Woewodin, D.Turner and AMW and depending who we select, from picks 6 and 11. The biggest risks we have are Clarrie and Gus, but we just have to ride the turbulence there. We weren't far off this year and with some modest luck would have won it. I'm optimistic.

I'll be the judge of that.

This is the biggest myth going around. Does my head in. Weren't people watching the finals? In nine finals there were only two games where a team kicked more than 100 points - the Lions shellacking of Port at the Gabba and the Giants getting on top of the saints and kicking 101 points. Come the finals every contender was basically playing a variation of the same game plan the dees employ. Arguably only the Lions game plan was noticeably different with their preference for hitting up short kicks and trying to keep the forward line open (and even then it had the same fundamentals). This is particularly true of the Pies, who once they lost their fitness advantage near the end of the season basically had almost exactly the same game plan as ours for the last third of the season - defence first, forward half, get territory, contested, intercept, turnover, super high pressure footy. In the grand final the Lions tried to negate that style by putting speed on the ball and the game was more open as a result - and resembled the game plan the Pies employed in the first half of the season. But the second half reverted to script and the Pies turned it into an arm wrestle and used the same game plan as the dees. Just look at the Pies scoring in the last third of the season. In the first third of the season everyone was seduced by their fast transition from the back half and their high octane offence. In their 3 finals they averaged a touch under 70 points per game.

Finally..

Cornes yesterday - ‘Melbourne need to sell Petty while he’s so valuable.’ Cornes Today - ‘Melbourne are keeping Petty. Is he that valuable?’ I don’t take anything he says seriously, because he admits he doesn’t either. It’s just a bit of fun.

Interestingly, whoever we take with our first pick may change how we setup for 2024. I know when we draft it is more for the longer term, but given the quality of players available it may well change our setup. Harley Reid - he would likely play 70% forward first year and we can move Trac back into the midfield more. Ryley Sanders - he is probably ready to go through the midfield so perhaps we leave Trac forward more and even use Brayshaw off half back again at times. Dan Curtin - he could probably slot into a half back role quite easily and mean Rivers can potentially be released further up the ground.

The last two games these two played as forwards, they both combined for a total of 14 goals. I think we'll be fine in this department thanks Kane.

best thing for him. few weeks in adelaide now. few more at xmas and he he’ll be keen as to get back to Melbs

It is a complete no no for opposition list managers to state a player wants to leave a club. Even if they throw in "at some stage". Reid has no right to comment on an opposition player's 'desire' in this manner. Demons will rightly be livid with this.

Never rated him. Do now.

Loll Ralphy... WHO could we have gone for that we didn't already go for ???!!

In the last 6 quarters Petty and van Rooyen played togather Melbourne scored 182 points and the two combined for 14 goals. It's a small sample size, but encouraging nonetheless. When they were mising as a pairing for the last 20 quarters of the season the team's score was a little more than half as good per quarter.

Every player who plays this game is 1 big hit or horrific injury away from not playing again. Lists need to be turned over regularly and players identified as not offering anything to improve us need to be moved on if the opportunity arises

I agree our mature midfield depth is shallower now that it was last year. But you can't both keep depth and regenerate the list. It's one or the other. And my point was that perhaps we do have the midfield depth, we just haven't used it. We can't totally control what happens with Gus and Clarrie. If both are unavailable it will be a body blow but there's no real way to deal with that for next year. It's a risk. And our ruck situation is now exposed, but the alternative is to have someone playing at Casey taking $650,000 of your TPP. Of course I'd like to be better covered, particularly in the ruck but what were the alternatives? Keep Brodie? He didn't want to be a back up ruck and I can understand that. We may well take Lycett or Teakle as backups, that to me is much more sensible than putting another backup mid in. No list is perfect Dazzle, we make calls given who is available. If we have no injuries we have a great team. We have reasonable cover but not perfect cover, we make our best judgement calls. All clubs are in the same position.

Emphatic nature, winning trade period - Ralphy plz. The narrative around the Pies is ridiculous.

Ironically, and contrary to your malevolent use of exclamation marks, we behave like this so that player managers are fully aware that we will act in good faith with their clients. That has helped us keep and attract players.

Source: https://www.wheeloratings.com/afl_stats.html?year=2023 Kossie: Average tackles: 4.0, Average Tackles inside 50: 2.0 McAdam: 3.3, 1.4 Fritsch: 1.6, 0.6 McAdam is more than twice a good as Fritsch in this area and closer to Kossie figures.

* Ducks for Cover *

Great pick up. Career averages: Elite - tackles inside 50 Elite - marks inside 50 Above - Goals Above - accuracy Sounds like the perfect pick up for our mess of a forward line

Based on 2023 averages he would be our second highest tackler inside 50 (1.4) behind Kozzy and above AFL averages. His general tackling was above AFL averages also @ 3.3 His pressure rating is at AFL average No slouch in this aspect. He'll be fine and if anything will actually up our forward pressure.

As good as saying he's not interested in discussion? Perhaps I've missed it but the closest thing I've read from sb suggesting he doesn't 'see the point in anything other than unbridled optimism' is: 'I think there is room for optimism and frankly I can't see the point, as supporters, viewing it any other way.' Unbridled optimism is a long way from room for optimism. Misrepresenting people's comments, a pet hate of mine, is hardly conducive to creating a good discussion.

I never said that none of them would improve, I just said not all of them would. It's just realistic. In every year, for every team, some players accelerate forward and others regress. Like clockwork. None of us thought that Spargo would be out of the team after how crucial he was in 21. None of us thought Salem would be on thin ice. None of us thought Sparrow would basically at best the same player, in reality arguably worse, than he was in the 21 finals series when he went beast mode. None of us thought Langdon's output would wane. What's folly is to assume not only that all young players will grow together, but that that growth will be at a faster rate than similar players on other teams, who - you guessed it, are all banking on & assuming their young maturing players will also improve. It's the classic safety net for supporters who are at best optimistic, at worse delusional, and mostly just naive. "Well, our young players will get better. We needn't worry - all a matter of time. We'll be right". We've all been around this block enough times to know how that ends. You need to be aggressive, and you need outstanding coaching & culture to drive growth at a faster rate than the competition, year over year over year over year. Our flag was literally built on aggressive off seasons. Bolting for Clarry at 4, going after the 'bad egg' May, getting in Lever and Langdon's ears 2/3 years out, and then capitalising our on quick dip in 2019 with 3 nailed early-ish selections. If our players grow at the same rate as the market, we stand still. I'm not saying we're a bad team (not by a long shot), or that we're done, or that our youth are no good, or that our coaching is abysmal. What I'm saying is you need to look at our attributes in all those realms in context of the competition around the league. So when I look at those players of ours you've named - do I think most can improve? Absolutely. Do i think most can improve faster than Carlton's youth, Brisbane's youth, Gold Coast's youth, Fremantle's youth, Adelaide's youth? Not necessarily. All a matter of coaching, development, and of course your own opinion on each player's ceilings - I think all those named can be good players and that some (Rivers, Pickett, Petty) have very high ceilings. This gives me hope. I also think that some are probably already at or close to their ceiling (Sparrow, Chandler, and I'm sure controversially, JVR and McVee to some degree), in that I would not be surprised if JVR kicks less than 28 goals next year, Chandler less than 24, and McVee places lower than 9th in the BNF. Their output this year was actually pretty high. And yeah, we got close. But not close enough. But to keep up with the growers in the comp - and every year there are teams that outgrow others due to the factors I listed above - for us to be that close again, all those named will need to at least replicate their 23 output (or others step up in their stead), whilst Petracca goes top 5 in the Brownlow again, Viney top 10 in a career year, Fritsch continues kicking goals for fun in spite of our horrendous efficiency, and Gawn & May keep up their form 1 year older. This is not a controversial view and if you speak to non-Melbourne supporters, you'd understand it. All oppo supporters fear Gawn, Trac, Clarry, May and Fritsch. None of them think that any of our next tier are on track to be scary. Not like Ashcroft for Brisbane, Daicos for Coll, or Curnow/Walsh/TDK for Carlton. Our stars are amazing - our 2nd tier is good - but our 3rd, 4th and depth is not. You can't have it all - and what we have can be enough if things go our way - but you need to respect how good some other teams are as well. And on the depth - no one is claiming that JJ, Harmes or Dunstan are world beaters. But what they were/are is mostly reliable - senior bodies who could take the heat & adhere to structures, there to fill gaps when our 1st choice players are unavailable, track a player back to goals & get a fist in when a youngster might be ball watching. They won't win the game for you - but they can at least keep the team ticking while your game winners find a way to get it done. You put kids in their absence - and they lose 3 out of the 5 critical contests that come their way over the game - those moments accumulate across the ground and you find yourself losing games against the best teams. Depth is depth - by definition, they can't be our best players, so claiming "we've lost very little" when it walks out the door is redundant, and lacks an understanding of the nuance & requirements of building a list. There are many opportunities to improve, and there is no reason we can't be the big, outperforming grower next year. There is plenty of room for optimism. If pick 6 and 11 turn out 3/4 as well as Jackson and Kozzie did - we'll be well on our way. We aren't far away - that much is obvious - but asking the question of where our improvement is coming from is not pessimism. It's just discussion. If you can't see the point in discussion then I'd question what you're doing on here at all. There's an echo chamber available to you at all times if you want to reassure yourself that we'll win it next year (and no doubt, that there were terrible, unique, unprecedented unforeseen circumstances that prevented us winning it this year).

reckon they both play round 1 personally.

Fully fit Fritsch and McAdam could be a nightmare duo to matchup for opposition defences in 2024

I think there is plenty of natural improvement in the team structurally. Our forward line set up and delivery was terrible, and personnel is improved with health. McVee and Rivers will hopefully be given the reigns of movement away from ‘wait and see’ May and Salem. I can see where you’re coming from but I can also see where we can get better with better coaching and a more adept gameplan that doesn’t make the ground so small as @old55 put so well a few weeks back.

The interview was fine. He received a big money offer which turned his head. We've told him he's not going so that's that. He'll settle down again and be fine. But if he does end up going in a year or two we should trade him to Port. [censored] the Crows.

keep in mind in his 4 years in AFL he’s mostly been playing for a bottom 4 team. if he can stay fit it could be an exciting get

Rhymes with?

Can't wait for him to get to hawks, then when he plays Pies he ducks, gets a high freekick and the pies fans lose their minds. Will be so enjoyable

They can both get involved and hold up yet another trade ...

FB: McVee May Tomlinson HB: Rivers Lever Salem C; Langdon Petracca Hunter HF: ANB Petty Pickett FF: McAdam JVR Fritsch Foll: Gawn Oliver Viney Int: Bowey Brayshaw Sparrow Chandler S: J Smith Depth (7) Back: Turner, Howes Mid: Woey (wing), Laurie (high half forward), pure mid? Ruck: Fullarton Forward: Schache, Spargo Draft: 6, 11 Old (3) Melksham, BBB, T Mc Developmental (7) Back: Adams, ?K Turner Mids: ???? (K Brown?) Rucks: Verrall, KFW Forwards: Jefferson, Sestan, ?AMW If we use 6 and 11 on guys who can contribute something in year 1 then we’ll have 32 guys who can contribute which is a fair number. Unless we draft a ready to go type like Sanders a capable on baller or wing and a back pocket would be the 2 positions I’d be searching the delistings/state leagues for in terms of immediate depth - JJ and Hibberd replacements. As well as swapping out at least one of the tall forwards for a mature ruck.

If we trade for pick 1, there is no doubt i'll be excited to have such a talent on our list. But he is one player. Imagine he has a career like O'Meara or Rayner. We could use 6 and 11 on our next centre bounce midfielder and our Steven May replacement. Nail those picks, plus some trades or free agents in 2024/25, and perhaps our premiership window extends.

Cal Twomey just said that it's down to Melbourne and North vying for pick 1.

Turner to be upgraded. Oh, and you're welcome to be a pessimist, you'll just be unhappy with no recourse to do anything about it. And then if your right you've just been sad for longer. And if you're wrong you've been sad for no reason.

Should’ve been a future 3rd, especially after the nonsense Adelaide and their media cheerleaders pulled with Petty. But hey, we paid overs so let’s hope he performs to the overs too!

Trade is done, and we keep Petty. So pleased Melbourne didn't cave. Well done, Dees!!

Would give McVee a go in the midfield myself, pace, good skills and good temperament.

Don't mind the price we paid. He's someone that can come in straight away and have a significant impact. If I jury he's capable of kicking 30 plus goals.

I love the idea of a smaller forward line with Fritta, Petty, JVR, McAdam/Smith, Koz, Chandler, Spargo etc. So much of the AFL game is based off speed and the ability to move the ball quickly off turnover. We need guys who have athletisim and pace to transition quickly. McAdam certainly adds to our hopefully more dynamic forward line in 2024.

Yes, and I hadn’t realised he drives a De Lorien.

Pick 6 & 11 will help replace the quality we have lost, Fullarton adds ruck/fwd potential / depth, McAdam eases the loss of Jake, Kynan Brown 1/2 fwd,1/2 back quality depth plus a couple of rookies. Plus we need and expect a couple of - Turner, Laurie, Howes, Woewodin, AMW, Adam’s, Verall, Jefferson to step up and show a bit during 2024. We have retained our best 22 with some doubts around two of our top 5 players, we have also released salary cap pressure and will further improve this aspect at the end of 2024, which will allow us to recruit and lock down players we want to keep. Not sure who will take on the Michael Hibberd role maybe Disco, playing tall and small as McVee and Riv are required across HF line it will be a very interesting year, we will have injuries no doubt as all clubs do. Looking forward to seeing how Andrew McQualter tweaks our game plan and forward connection, he is a great get. Now just looking forward to the Draft and Rookie draft to inject some quality and depth back into the list.

It'll be a pretty [censored] F2 after we win the flag, so I am OK with that.

Can Demonland boss develop and implement a strictly voluntary 'Kane Cornes Filter'. He's demonstrated clear unobjectivity this year and is click driven. I don't mind opinions I disagree with. Thanks in anticipation. This blokes incorrigible and I for one would tick the box to activate.

How noble of them to abandon their pursuit of a contracted player at a rival club. What a stand up club.