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Ok so I have left it a while to try and reflect with a little less emotion... So here's my take away from the weekend, what I think was a reflection on our year so far: We are a step off the pace, we all know it, but when we win we would like to think otherwise. I'm guilty of being swept up in all the excitement of easybeat successes, but I have also tried to keep a level headed look at where we are at. We were never ever, ever going to play finals, this is a fact I have tried to keep in my head they whole time. Although even now I have a thought "well if we can just beat 2 big teams and Adelaide loses 1 or 2 maybe we can kind of just make it" But then I think about Saturday and reality sets in. It all seems like doom and gloom after that lost but I dont think it is that bad. We are 5-5 after 10 weeks... And although we had our chances to win more games North and Essendon in particular, 5-5 is about where I always thought we would be. 50% wins is the definition of inconsistant and I guess we should have all seen that coming. We have built a list that is young excitable and capable of beating anyone on its day. But thats the thing, we can only seem to win on our day. On Saturday we played in patches as we have all year. Most games we have taken our chances whenever we have had them. We lead the competition in scoring accuracy and Saturday was the first time we were below 50% infront of goal. Up to that point we were the only side yet to dish up a sub 50 porformance. It was always coming, it sucks that it was Saturday but nobody is that accurate that forever. Our ability to kick straight has helped keep us in games. Round 1 it basicly secured us an unlikely win. Unfortunatly we were unable to capatalise on our chances Saturday and it cost is dearly. -5 scoreing shots and 45 point loss, thats simply not good enough. The Diamond Defence... Certainly has its critics right now, and for good reason it can look damn ugly when it goes wrong. That being said I think abandoning it right now is dangerous. The point of the diamond is simple. If we can draw even on the scoring shots, we can back ourselves to kick a winning score (we are 4-1 when we draw even). So while it has been frustrating, over the course of 10 weeks we are -3 in scoring shots. That means every game we average giving 0.3 scoring shots more to the opposition... that isnt that bad for a middle tier team!! Yes, when we have been exposed we have conceded quickly and heavily but I dont think the scores we have gotten as a result have been credited enough. All we need to do is recapture our ability to shut the game down. That is the only piece of the game plan that we are missing! If, in the second half of the year, we can learn how to shut a game down while still in the diamond structure we will have achieved everything Roos set out to do nearly 3 years ago. We lacked leaders on Saturday. Some long overdue selection might help with that, we will have to see. We needed cool heads to prevent the panic that sunk in when Port got a run on. Whenever a team kicks 2/3 goals on the trot we need to flick the defencive switch and shut it down! We showed we could do it last year, so I have faith that given time they will learn to do it again. This structure makes it hard and its very aggressive but fortune favours the brave. We have been too late to the party every time there is a new gameplan. Copying Geelong in 2010, then copying Collingwood in 2012 then copying Sydney in 2014. 3 years, 2 years and 2 years late respectivly. Now we have decided rather than being like everyone else and copy Hawthorn to the letter, we will go our way with our list and good on 'em! If we copy hawthorn now then by the time we get it right the game will have changed again. The fact is we are 10 games into a new gameplan with a 50% success rate. Its been ugly at times but beautiful at others. We are nothing more than a confidence side right now. I think thats all we need to be this year. We need to get that bully tag, it is a tag I have dreamt of for years. I know it has negative conatations but it is a stepping stone to success. 3 stages to a flag, Beat those below, Beat those around and beat those above. We are barely secure at stage one and people are talking finals, we need to secure that spot then we can talk about how we can pinch a couple of wins and play finals. The next few games are big, but we need to be understanding. We all penciled this week in as a loss, and no matter what happens we need to remember that. Hawthorn should pants us, even based on our best form they are too good. All I want to see is effort and structure. We could lose 3 of the next 4 and still have a positive month such is the run we face. Forget finals dreams, forget being the fairy tale story of 2016 thats not us. Look for glimpses, look for effort, look for structure. It's where we are, like it or not. Keep scoring, give ourselves excitement and give ourselves a chance. But dont expect instant success otherwise you're probably not gonna deal well with whats coming. It's god awful frustrating and I wish we could get it faster but I still have faith, the path feels right, and the tunnel is getting brighter. Saturday was ugly, but it does not mean we are going nowhere. It just means we arn't there yet. A reality I think we all know, when we take an objective look. When it all comes down to it. Can we be disapointed about the weekend? Hell yes! Is it right to be dissapointed by the year so far? I'm not so sure. Holy [censored] I wrote alot more than I planned. If you actully read it all my hat goes off to you.

I was wandering why i hadn't seen those yellow bars in topics lately

Donald J Trump's Speech Writer???

There's been a bit of discussion about Carlton on this thread. It's worth noting a couple of things about their list as they entered the weekend's game (injuries during the game aside). They had 4 former pick 1's, two former pick 2's, a pick 3 and two pick 10's. All up they had 9 former top 10 picks and 11 within the top 13. Half of their team was drafted within the top 13 of the National Draft. To put that in perspective we had 6 players from Saturday drafted within the top 13; and that includes both Hogan and Viney. Our average age was 23.5 months - there's 25.11 months and our games experience average was 63.9 compared to 98.4. Those numbers present a huge disparity. Bolton is doing a great job, but their experience and top end talent is better than what is being reported. They were the 5th oldest team on the weekend and even older than the geriatrics from Fremantle.

Yes.

Bring Back Lumumba and Vandenberg!

Wow. We got beaten by a team that needed to beat us and got the job done. We didn't play well and that was dissaponting. All of those things I can handle. What I can't handle is the sooky, weak as [censored] attitude of supposed supporters taking shots at other supporters and players because we don't win every game with a team of 20 year olds. We will be up and down. Sometimes that will be difficult to stomach - but are we moving in the right direction as a club and as a team? Yes! Sometimes I have to reset my browser to make sure I'm on a Melbourne Football Club supporters forum. Go Dees!

Can't wait for Travis Cloke to resurrect his career against us on the Queens Birthday.

The most disappointing aspects are that if Viney is held there's virtually no-one other than Jones to shoulder the load. If Viney is beaten we look limp in the midfield. We didn't work hard enough and for a team that is supposedly built around "competitors" there's nowhere near a hard enough edge. We could have been in the 8 after this weekend, so one must question how hungry this group is.

The irony being we'll probably still be scheduled there as the away team anyway

At the risk of opening a hornet's nest (and because I don't want to think about the game vs Hawks) I've bumped this thread. Worsfold is quoted as saying they will be good enough to play finals next year http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/john-worsfold-says-essendon-will-push-for-finals-in-2017/news-story/14e6068693b25e976510c6fd64d5fbb5 (another outlet said he thought they are a top 6 side next year). I'm sorry, any club that makes that prediction should not get a top 2 draft pick (more top picks if they get FA comp pics) and early rnd 2 picks. The AFL will not act but surely other clubs must lobby the AFL to stop 'a finals team' getting such priority. I know I'm flogging a dead horse but it annoys me immensely that they are being rewarded for cheating: the sanctions (lost draft picks and fines) for cheating are being returned to them, in spades! Not to mention other 'rewards' like superior time slots, top teams for their home games and more or better MCG games! And they will be back at the top of the ladder as a result. No one is batting an eyelid!!

That was me. Their 5 losses also included losses to us, St Kilda and Port (9th, 13th and 14th come the end of the year). Of course, they went 9-3 from there on, but the point to remember is that young, inexperienced sides in their first year of a much-different gameplan are bound to make mistakes along the way. I didn't think it would take that long for the "Carlton have gone past us" brigade. They beat Geelong. Like we did last year (albeit we did it in Geelong). Their side was 3 months younger, on average, than the Cats', coming in at 25 yr 11m. Armfield stood out today: he's 29. Casboult is 26. Curnow is 26, Everett 27, Gibbs 27, Jamison 30, Murphy 29, Rowe 29, Simpson 32, Thomas 29, Tuohy 26, Walker 30, White 28, even Liam Jones is 25. This is something of a makeshift side which is vastly outperforming pre-season expectations but which does not, unlike the Dogs, Giants or us, feature a nucleus of young kids around which they are building a future. Calm down.

To me at least, he is so clearly not ready for AFL football. He's not strong enough, he has no idea what to do with it offensively (the only player in today's 22 who didn't look comfortable transitioning into attack) and he just looks lost in zone defence right now. I'm not putting a line through him, I'm more than happy to give him time, but right now that time should be in the VFL not the AFL. He is just not good enough to hold a spot in the seniors right now.

I've been thinking about this for a while now... With the tanking of clubs like Collingwood, Hawthorn and West Coast in the past and the current situation we now find ourselves in with EFC and Fremantle I think it's time something was done. The current situation where the draft order is worked out on ladder positions at the end of the season is inadequate. I also think the lottery system some have called for really doesn't help the clubs who need the most help... I propose the draft ladder should be worked out over a 3 years floating period. In other words at the end of each season the draft ladder positions would be calculated based on results of the previous 3 years. Why 3 years? Well my reasoning is that should give an accurate indication of where a club actually sits and will take out the anomalies of a situation where EFC find themselves this season and the possibility of Freo having a bad one and just bouncing back next year ala WC. Also I very much doubt a club would tank over a 3 year period, the damage to a club would be too great. Maybe there could be a trigger point built in for a priority pick as well. I don't like leaving it up to the whim of the AFL...

As good as they are first and second year players won't provide a "hard edge". But the sooner Oliver, Brayshaw, Trengove, vandenBerg and Salem are back the better.

think he cracked it big time when 'land remove the option for font selection

Was he selling drugs on Demonland?

He wasn't injured punching Ebert, you muppet. Was injured in the first qtr. Getting suspended was stupid but maybe get all the facts before teeing off

Trengove is the obvious replacement.

Chris I like your opinions but many supporters including me are losing patience. As a club we do not have the luxury of time beyond this season. We will see what happens when we meet some of the big boys starting this weekend. I am encouraged by our development in so many ways but our defense has been awful all season. I am concerned that our players down back simply don't have the skills including the ability to read the game to implement the current game plan.

Bit of a joke of a suspension. How can they be deemed as punches? Ebert ran out of his way to elbow Viney in the back to start it anyway. MRP are fools. What about the 3 facial contacts with Demon players. They were clumsy & all very deliberate. [censored] Port look forward to the return match.

Lies, damn lies and statistics. I am tired of excuses to be honest. Let's stop trying to paint our situation as something which is unique. All teams have their inadequacies to some extent. It is how you manage those flaws which counts. At the moment, regardless of draft picks, average age, and the basket case from where Carlton have come, they are doing a better job than us right at the minute.

Thinking about where our improvement is going to come from. Clearly, in the next few years it will come from recruits from the last 3 years. But we need to improve faster if we are to keep up with our 'bottom of the ladder peers' or get ahead of them. For the sake of team and fan morale and industry cred we can't afford to not have a better 2nd half 2016. This improvement can only come from our senior/more experienced players. So, I extracted this table based on games at end of 2015, for 22 yo or over. Age Games Improvement on 2015 (3,2,1,0) Max Gawn 24 39 3 Jack Watts 24 115 2 Neville Jetta 25 73 2 Matt Jones 28 51 1 (not played since injured) Sam Frost 22 24 0 (Not able to hold seniors selection) Viv Michie 23 18 0 (Not able to hold seniors selection) Lynden Dunn 28 161 0 (Not able to hold seniors selection) Dean Terlich 26 35 0 (not yet selected for seniors) Jack Grimes 26 98 0 (not yet selected for seniors) Jake Spencer 26 36 0 (not yet selected for seniors) Chris Dawes 27 115 0 (not yet selected for seniors) Dom Tyson 22 50 0 (Treading water) Tomas Bugg 22 65 0 (Treading water) Ben Newton 23 15 0 (Treading water) Tom McDonald 23 82 0 (Treading water) Aaron Vandenberg 23 14 0 (Treading water) Jeff Garlett 26 129 0 (Treading water) Colin Garland 27 135 0 (Treading water) Nathan Jones 27 201 0 (Treading water) Cameron Pedersen 28 52 0 (Treading water) Heritier Lumumba 29 218 0 (Treading water) Bernie Vince 30 172 0 (Treading water) Jack Trengove 24 81 n/a (Did not play 2015) I haven't tried to adjust for injuries etc (and I'm not sure that would make much difference to this subjective rating). This rating may be a bit harsh on 22/23 yo but given our relative player mix I have included them in the 'senior' group. You may wish to change the ratings but I doubt the overall picture will change much. All the talk has been about youth and inexperience. I for one fell for the trap of thinking that is why we aren't improving at the same rate of some other teams around our level in the league. My conclusion from the table is our lack of improvement is, in significant part because our senior/experienced players have not improved, so too much is falling on the shoulders of those 21yo or younger. For us to get better results this year our more senior players need to lift their game, do what the coaches want, get senior selection and once there play at their best and play to keep their spots.

With greater expectations comes greater disappointment. And this comes week by week depending on the result. The true measure or assessment will be made at season end.

Port can have it, they play us up there every season except it's our home game, at least let us play different opposition, Port make inroads in the region at our expense, we have no advantage, i'm sick and tired of this arrangement, want it to end.

Jack was being beaten...Jack was the one crying on the weekend. They sucked him in...still a lot to learn before he becomes a true leader. What Jack did was a sign of what the team did all day. At least he came back later in the game and did what he should have done in the first place...

It took a single preseason for carlton to get a solid defence up and running and three for us to get it wrong .

Agree with most of his. As much as I hate to admit it, at this stage, the people from Princes Park have surpassed us, in terms of getting the most out of the list they have. Bolton is a teacher, both as a profession and obviously in footy. By saying this, I am not decrying Roos efforts with the list he took on at the beginning of his tenure, but what seems to still be missing, is the players total commitment to the cause. With Casboult out and Kreuzer's fitness, at best, doubtful, I thought they were not a chance against a much more experienced and match hardened Cats outfit. It was not all that long ago, we thought our backline was OK and what we needed to was to get depth in the middle and some key forwards. Now our backs have seemingly gone backwards and unless our mids turn up with their collective brains in gear, we get beaten. My view, going into this season, was that we were entitled to consider us at least on a par with St. Kilda, Brisbane, GCS, Port, Pies and Tigers and maybe as good as the Doggies. Certainly better than Essendon and Carlton - although clearly Carlton have surprised many so called experts so far. I don't have the answers, but I would have hoped that by now the mindset of our list can at least cope with the ups and downs of professional footy, as well as the pressure cooker environment of game day. Clearly, other clubs, with not necessarily more talent than us, have managed to do so. To me this is the most frustrating aspect of what our supporters are forced to endure. Our hopes and expectations are built one week, only to come crashing down the following. I know, I know, such is the lot of a Dees supporter, but frankly I am tired of this meek acceptance of what seems to be a reality on most Dees supporters' minds. I'm not sure why, accepting the shorter turnaround and travel, but this week's loss somehow has left me flatter than any other this season. We are now rapidly approaching the half way mark of the season and we need to get this right, if we want to be seen as truly 'developing', by the footy world, with understandably higher expectations for 2017. Right now, I don't think we can justify such an expectation.

Count me in. $20 is $800k on 40000 members and no travel expenses. 2 more games at the G would also make membership more attractive and a win or two extra would be very attractive.

Watts is playing very good football. Is he the MOST important... I'm not so sure. He's certainly in the top three.

Was named in our best in multiple match reports. Please make your posts more relevant to the game.

Viney is getting a little too frisky with his hands. Attracting to much attention and scrutiny. Sooner or later the MRP will make an example of him.

Like to see Dermie return serve on this one. Derm called out Thomas on Friday night.

We fumbled a lot again on the weekend, just like the Saints game. If we're not clean with contested possessions we get run over/pushed off the ball and it's 'wooshka', over our heads and into defensive 50. Our cleanest player was missing and it showed. Many say one player doesn't make a difference but if they can grab a ball with one touch and dispose of it to a running outside player from a stoppage which results in a goal just 5 times a game, that's a big difference. Especially when, if that doesn't happen, it goes the other way for a goal instead. Our game plan seems to be based on clean possessions out of stoppages. Oliver better be right to go this week.

For the forwards/mids? Yes I think the defenders are copping blame for the problems up forward. Yes sometimes, but that depends on the player and how they seem feel on the day players like Harmes, Kennedy and Kent are becoming scarily bad downhill skiers, when we play well they all play well and when we play poorly they are near useless. Given 99% of our defencive gameplan relies on pressure in the forward half it is a serious problem No i dont think so they have gotten it right a number of times but they just seem to panic a little when it starts to leak and the panic causes the flood gates to open. We need to have a couple of leaders to step up and shut the game down when we are under siege then reset. Right now we simply cant shut it down when we need to. Instead we need to wait for an opponent mistake to break the run of play.

Brendan Bolton says he disagrees. Yes he has more experienced players, but they were there the last 3 years. I understand what implementing a game plan means, but blind faith in it being guaranteed to work in years to come is naive. It won't work on some days and that is guaranteed, therefore you don't need a whole new game plan, you need to make some simple changes such as man on man, or loose defender etc. This will help us win or stop thrashings when we are off. Where is the evidence of that? Also wins are invaluable to young sides. I know it is not all about winning if there is a bigger picture but for God sake, footballers are not all total idiots and can adapt to slight modifications in games. Nothing is new, they will have done it before. Better selection won't hurt either.

Just had to watch the vision. Same problems as against essenscum and st kilda. Poor decision making bad kicking. It falls apart pretty badly. We need the second ruck. Max was playing like an extra tall midfielder and getting the ball at ground level. Max can get forward and really needs Spencil to bash and crash ATM. Need a KPB. Tom Mc Donald is playing like a Jared Rivers. He was no where near Dixon when he needed to be. I would have played Dunn on him. Need another tall forward. Really missed Pedo. Could have freed up Gawn. Im actually hoping that the mindset against Hawthorn will be sharper and that some tactics are employed to restrict some of their players influence. I really struggle with this "team defence" BS. Is that code for Jetta plays tall, small, medium and everyone else watches???

Calling them highlights is a stretch.

We had a few games in good form, then got shaky again during/since the St Kilda loss. We've managed to thump two low level teams in that time and come through with a 5-5 record and handy percentage. We're four goals per game better off on the for-against numbers compared to last season. Clearly we've struggled when our opponents have been able to effectively counter-attack or effectively confuse and break down our own high-risk attacking strategy. Clearly we have waves of bad form knock five or six players to half their usual production for seemingly random games. Right now we are neither 'the next big thing' or 'the perennial losers'. But what drives me crazy, and I think a lot of others, is that in any given week we could look like one or the other. Hawks, Magpies, Swans and Crows to come. There will be nowhere to hide for the next four weeks. I'm not going to mutter any more about our form until we've done that run of four games.

next time ernest you need to resist the urge to expose your banana. leave it in the bag unless the juice bar explicitly allows byo bananas

banana juice obviously, ernest

Yep - I had very similar thoughts. I even made a similar comment to my brother re: the Hogan shot - "if he misses this it's all over". I truly think if we'd put a few of those earlier misses through, we'd have been looking at a totally different energy in the side. You could just feel the energy go limp with each miss. Roos even said in the post match presser that players naturally get energised through scoring.

Of course we're all welcome to our opinion. I just think it's important that we get Prestia, because we need to improve our midfield and he will help in that area.

Apologies, TU. And absolutely agree with the rest of your post too. I just texted this to my Carlton mate. "I reckon you're (Carlton) are winning too early. Your list is being held together by older players: Murphy, Gibbs, Kreuzer and your mid tier older players like Armfield, Everitt, Casboult, Curnow, Walker etc. But there's not enough talent in the 18-25 demographic to get you any further than 5th to 8th in the future. Bolton is clearly a brilliant communicator and teacher, but you need at least two years of top draft picks to improve your midfield and key position stocks. I think you might get some B graders through the FA and trade period, but they won't give you a flag without more than say Cripps, a young Curnow and Weitering. It'll be interesting to see. We've got Viney, Tyson, Oliver, Petracca and Brayshaw. Only two of these guys have played 50 games, the rest haven't played more than 10-20 games. These are the guys that will develop into A graders, but we're still a few A graders short of completing our midfield (I'm not counting older blokes in Jones or Vince). We'll get Prestia, but we're still at least another A grader off the midfield we need to have sustained success. We have the best forward in the land in Hogan and half decent small forwards, along with developing young key position forwards in the VFL. That's been a two year build with access to the top talent as Hawthorn had. We've actually recruited properly this time and all of these guys are tracking far above the average for their experience. Statistically speaking, Hogan is ahead of the absolute champions of the game in Carey, Riewoldt etc, the stars of the game. Oliver and Petracca are averaging 19 disposals in their first five games. Outrageous. In Judd's first season, he averaged 15 disposals. Cripps averaged 9 across his three games in his first season. You might get lucky with FA and trades, but I think you're building too quickly. Time will tell." And yes, he did say that was the longest text message he'd ever received.

Whilst Kennedy undoubtedly had a bad game yesterday, I'm not sure I agree with those dropping him in front of Harmes and/or Kent. Kennedy's faster and works harder than both, even when he's having a bad day. Harmes and Kent seem to get golden runs from the coaches, not being dropped after poor games. I'd like to see them cop a reminder that you don't get to rest on the back of one performance for a month before you have to show up the next time. That would explain why I couldn't find a Casey match day thread... If you write every player off after they get dropped you'll be left with about 5 players. Grimes has displayed strong VFL form and we have too many underperforming players in the seniors.

Agreed. I think these are the sort of tweaks that will be applied with time. Not sure about 30 metres, but merely 10 metres might be enough to prevent the breaking of the zone. Spot on, mate. I watched the game with my family yesterday, as I always do and when Hogan had that shot on goal in the last, I said if he misses this, we'll lose by 7 or 8 goals. Sure enough, he missed it and that was pretty much the turning point in the final term, when we were within reach. It's an oldie, but still applies - scoreboard pressure is essential in footy and poor kicking is poor footy. I know it sounds harsh, but I believe Hogan's kicking cost us the game yesterday. He kicked 3.4 and missed some vital shots that would have put us right in the game. His kicking also let us down in the Bulldogs game. In a season or so's time, Hogan will kick those and pretty much win us the game off his own boot. But equally, when the team works hard to create a scoring chance on a lean day and then the forward keeps missing, it just saps our confidence and adds to the opposition's.

Going man on man shouldn't be too confusing.

I think the prevailing view among our coaches is that it's hard and time consuming enough drilling a group in one game plan that you can't really expect to be able to practice a second one with any effectiveness. I know many supporters dismiss that idea; I take the view that I don't have enough hours of experience in coaching an AFL side (zero) so I can only take their word for it, but it at least sounds like a reasonable proposition to me. I think if anything, plan 'A' failing due to poor implementation of our defensive systems is evidence that plan 'A' needs more attention and rehearsal, not evidence that we should distract ourselves by ditching it and trying something else.

Garland just looks overwhelmed. He doesn't play like a player with almost 150 games experience. He lacks composure, aggression, urgency and any sort of respectable football IQ. He reminds me of the type of player that would dominate in VFL and win every award but wouldn't get a look in at most AFL clubs. He just seems to me to be a "no other choice" sort of inclusion, and it tells. He just doesn't seem like he wants to be here. I get that he has a very soft, introverted personality but he seems to play with resentment, like as if he's only doing it because he *has* to. He needs to go. He's done.

No, Jetta is.