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I don't think you can underestimate the age profile and capacity to compete physically and particularly running capacity. I went to the 2011 B&F and spoke to Aaron Davey who said Bailey had been trying to get them to execute a game plan they just couldn't execute. He said as a group they just didn't have the ability to run both ways the way he wanted them too. I spoke to Neil Craig at the 2012 pre match function in Sydney and he said they were shocked when they arrived and discovered how poor the fitness levels were. He said then they thought they were 2 1/2 seasons away from being competitive fitness wise. At the Maroochydore camp this year the emphasis changed from still focusing on building fitness to now focusing on game plan. It's taken a very long time for the fitness level to be finally considered adequate to be competitive. Under the Roos era another 32 players have been turned over so the fitness time line has taken a hit as so many players who should have been ripe by now have had to be discarded and replaced with new players who we start from scratch all over again. It looks like this merry go round is finally over,however, when you look through the exciting young talent in the team we are still a few years away from the majority hitting that sweet spot of conditioning. Judging by Jack Viney it looks like at a minimum players have to be in their 3rd season to really start to have a competitive level of conditioning. I suspect it is their 4th year when they are competitive with the best. So we still have a few years to be patient. I think we'll look back on last year's crop as being a vintage year which creates a major nucleus of players in the team but we have at least another 2-3 years before they are all at the required level to mix it with the best. I have a suspicion that because of all of the above there is going to be a greater step forward this year than people think who look at all the other teams and say every team is improving every year so we won't be much more competitive. In the past we might have got to this point of development but still be non competitive because of poor development and poor coaching. But not this time. Looking at WJ's list, I totally agree with how essential it is going to be to have our best players on the park. The conditioned players like Jones Dawes and Lumumba etc need to be around to ease the burden as the younger stars develop their tanks.

McDonald will re sign. Wants to play 10 plus years with his brother.

Toumpas played a "vanilla" game and had 13 disposals. In the same game a "no gamer" in Callum Mills (22 possessions/5 marks) showed what a top 5 pick really looks like(if you get lucky). And what a contrast there was between the two.

Can you believe the reporter said (Hogan and McDonald) "both are off contract this season" ? What has happened to journalism when basic facts are not checked ? And then he acknowledges that Hogan is signed to the end of 2017.

Back to Parish. I think Essendon are in a really good position with Parish. Once Viney snaps him in half they'll have two of him. May help their top up situation by one.

I went along yesterday. Unusually good conditions for Casey Fields. CF is a terrible viewing ground and early in the season picking up players can be difficult. I agree with much of what has been said and I reckon that where you are standing can influence your view as seeing what's happening on the other side of the ground is hard. I agree with most of what's been said ubut where I differ from others I've noted below. I was surprised and quite impressed with Frost. Whilst his attributes were on display last year his ability to do anything with them wasn't. But he was ok to good yesterday which was promising. Watts was good, involved but I was disappointed with his kicking. Missed easy goals and some makable passes. I didn't think he played 3rd tall either, more high half forward but these things aren't all that easy to see. I thought Jake was very competitive against Gawn and the dominance of the "good" team was signifantly helped by Spencer's absence. Jake will never be a dominant player but if he is first ruck for us he will not make it easy for opposition ruckman. He's a good AFL backup ruck. We are not ruined if Gawn doesn't play. After the recent debate about Oliver I was looking out for him and I thought he was terrific and shows more that Brayshaw at the same stage (yes, I know about Brayshaw's injury situation last year). What was very evident yesterday was his ability to find the ball at stoppages and in general play. I thought his lateral movement was great and his vision excellent which led to good disposal by hand. Not so good by foot but he had a lot of mates in that regard yesterday. Salem is a gun. AVB found it heaps, Viney prolific Tommy Mac awful, Kennedy tough and Harmes impressive. But that has been reported by others. Ive been going to intraclub matches for 10 years now and haven't been impressed by the play once. Yesterday was no different. As PD says you go there to look for individual things.

You'll get over it.

Didn't we have the quintessential young, high draft pick who tore the opposition (multiple) new one(s) last year?

A lot of water has flowed under the bridge since I received my copy of "Breakfast with Bails" in the mail early last month. I finally opened up the book this morning to find the place where I had left off reading the early chapters that were available to download onto Kindle and which I read while in flight above the United States. I have now read a further 3½ pages that resonate strongly on a number of levels, particularly after witnessing an outstanding film based on the true story of how a team of reporters from Boston Globe investigated and ultimately exposed a massive cover up at the highest level of abuse within the Catholic Church which had enormous ramifications worldwide, including in Australia (and judging by the weekend’s headlines, it remains a very much live issue). The events covered were disturbing in themselves and for that alone I recommend that you see Spotlight but there was also a sub text that leads me to the story of the 3½ pages of the book about Dean Bailey. I'm referring to the work of the characters in the film - "investigative journalism": a search for the discovery of the truth about a single topic of interest. A search that involves the delving into of documents, interviewing witnesses and researching issues. Checking the facts or if you like, "accountability reporting". We saw it to effect in the work of Fairfax journalists Richard Baker and Nick McKenzie with Stephen Dank and the Essendon saga, just as we saw the opposite with the other type of journalist which brings me to the football editor of the Herald Sun Mark Robinson, a Bomber fan whose body of work on that subject was downright embarrassing. It was also Robinson who threw Dean Bailey under a bus with his "Dead man coaching" story at a point not too far into the 2011 season. That's what the 3½ pages I read this morning were all about. "Robbo" with his "coaching pressure barometer" on his Foxtel programme had already designated Bailey as a high risk to lose his job but this was at a time when his team had a record of two wins and a draw in five games. The two met face to face and Robinson offered a dispassionate response that read a bit like the Nuremberg defence - "Yeah, I went too far; the heading was no good. But you gotta' understand I don't write the headings." In this case however, the words were also in the text of his article so Bailey could have called him for his bullshit but rather, simply unemotionally accepted it with a, "Yeah, no worries." That was Bails. The offending article came after a poor game from Melbourne against the Eagles in Perth. Bailey's team capitulated weakly to some heavy defensive pressure all over the ground, a performance that admittedly, set off doubts in many peoples' minds (including my own) about the style of coaching he had adopted for the still developing side, but Robinson was way out of line coming up with a virtual epitaph to Bailey's coaching career at such an early stage in the season. The team reacted in its next game with a 16 goal win over Adelaide at the MCG. Coaches of losing teams are an easy target and Robinson used his position in bully-like fashion. It was weak, cowardly and ugly but Robbo has form. Look at how he dealt with the Garry Lyon/Billy Brownless situation last week - more easy targets for one with an agenda who might not be too interested in checking his facts before firing bullets. And Robbo claims to be a mate of Garry's who even dropped in to play cricket with the family. Ironically, Lyon has taken flack in some quarters for his role in the appointment of both Bailey and his successor Mark Neeld who were both thrown under the buses by the media vultures. Robbo’s barbs must have had their effect on Bailey even if he didn't show it and even if he didn't read the on-line message boards and social media or listen to talk back radio and taxi drivers. I say this because from my brief experiences of speaking with him at a couple of Melbourne functions (he was always very approachable), I concluded he probably never felt completely secure in his role as the head coach of the club. There was a sponsor’s function at a Volvo showroom on the eve of the 2008 National Draft when I mentioned to him that one of the club's problems in recent years was its inability to turn high draft picks like Colin Sylvia and Brock McLean into champion footballers. He seemed to take this comment as a direct criticism of his coaching and I had to reassure him that this was not what I meant. At the time, Bailey had been coach for one season while Col and Brock had been at the club for five years without fulfilling anything close to their promise (or perhaps our expectations). Ironically, the club drafted Jack Watts with its number one pick on the following day. The "dead man coaching" tag followed Bailey for the rest of the season to the end of July that year. I expect the rest of the book will cover these events in some detail but I don't think it can be understated how difficult life was made for the coach of a team going through a topsy turvy season with an attendant build-up of tension through the club. The constant internal and external criticisms would have taken their toll as it does with all clubs where the coach is under pressure. As for Robbo, he would do well to look to characters like another Robinson - Walter "Robby" Robinson of the Boston Globe who led the Spotlight team's investigation to a Pulitzer Prize, rather than play for sensationalist headline grabbing attention for his agendas. On that note, I'll leave you with the comment of one who is said to have opined that when Robbo was chosen to replace Mike Sheahan at the Herald Sun it was like "replacing Frank Sinatra with a karaoke singer."

Well, I liked it. Double leg pull with twist.

Stick to being serious, it's funnier.

They were the best 7 kicks and 7 handballs you'll ever see.

The State of Our List? Overall Picture: - We have 17 players from the Neeld era or prior -Roos has insulated us from the ‘go home’ factor: 78% of the list are from Victoria or other clubs. The only notable risk is Jesse (discussion in another thread). -From an article this week: the Demons believe they have 20 to 23 "good" players, up from "13 decent players" in 2013… Their analysis shows the top-four teams have about 27. List Profile: -We are much taller than ever before: 2 x 200+cm players and 13 x 190 to 199 cm players. -Our average age is 23 (and for those who prefer the Median, it is 22). No one is over 30; 5 are 28+; only 12 in the critical 24 to 27 age group. -Our average experience is 51 games (the Median is 32). Only 9 players over 100 games and 7 players in the 50 to 100 game range. Conclusions: -I would expect any player who still has ‘mental demons’ will not get a game. -Only a handful of players will be a walk up start in the 22 each week but given Roos’ history to date once in the team the spot will be a players to lose. -Quality of our list is catching up to that of top 4 teams. Experience is the big gap...experience not just no of games but also in winning and finals. -No elite players yet but it would be staggering if a few don’t develop from the ‘20- 23’ good players we do have. -A very young, very inexperienced team so we will have inconsistent results, maybe some bad (not crushing) losses but also more surprise upsets. -Team solidarity and enthusiasm seems to be at an all time high so may sneak in an extra win or two. -If we get to finals this year we are really ‘punching above our weight’. -On this climb of Everest we are at Base Camp...all resources ready for the climb up!

I live in Sydney and go to most of their home games. Mills and Heeney are freaks of nature. There are an awful lot of recruits at Sydney that weren't like what your saying when they came in and quite a few that still aren't. Heeney also did his share of fading during games and just like most young players will take time to develop a competitive tank. Sydney have such an established list that young players are given time to develop before they are thrown in the seniors. When they do arrive they are in a team where everyone else is at the competitive level of development so they aren't under nearly as much pressure as our young guys. Plus they get micro coaching on field from all the experienced players around them. I've seen players running on to the field and being told where to stand to the centimetre, when to stay on their man when to run off, picking out which option to kick to etc etc etc. We haven't had that, although it sounds like there is finally a growing on field leadership developing.

If someone offers him a ridiculous amount of money then I would suggest it would only be if he has a sensational season. It was mooted in the media at the end of the season that Watts might be available for trade but there were apparently no takers which suggests his current "price" is not all that high.

If you think it's "irrelevant" you have the democratic right to ignore this thread, any articles on the subject and our section on Women's Football when we get it up and running. Also, if you really thought it was "irrelevant" then you wouldn't have wasted your time posting or the time that others spent reading it.

I reckon there's some truth to this. There's so many dismissive, arrogant and blasé comments - on Facebook posts from Fox Footy, AFL and the like - when Melbourne is mentioned in positive news stories (which they mostly are these days). "They're still a basket case", "They'll always be a rabble", "The most fight you'll see from Melbourne all year" (in relation to TMac and Viney stoush) and so on. Fans of clubs like Essendon, Collingwood, Richmond still refuse to believe that we could be any good this year. The media are similar. So many journos have actually tipped us to finish lower this year than last (this makes absolutely no sense but whatever they're the experts). It doesn't bother me, because we know better. Maybe they have a right to be like that given how crap we've been in recent years. But I think many must know things have changed and I think it's fear and wishful thinking as much as anything. It's going to make it so much sweeter when we prove them wrong.

National women's football league set to expand to eight teams ... and Demonland will have its own section for the womens' game starting soon ,,,

A number of Melbourne supporters are continually obsessed with laying blame on the media. Mark Robinson is a prat but he is a sideshow & was just doing his job. To me the real story of DB's last year at the Club was: 1. How he was being undermined by certain people within the Club 2. The fact that a delegation of senior players complained to the Board about this interference. 3. The failure of the Board to deal with the matter properly. To my mind these events directly led to the capitulation at Geelong & DB's sacking.

"Underling" maybe?

Watson ? Lol oh the father of that drug cheater still clinging to his ill won Charlie ?

I think we have learnt over the past few years that skinny kids who have good skills at junior level don't always develop well at AFL level which is were we went wrong with Tompes over Wines and went right with Oliver over Parish.

We are not "implicated" in anything. What an ill-considered assertion.

Ethan,committing to DL depends on my mental health,if we are zero 4 I will be going nuts. Also depends on who I will be sleepy with. I know that I am already nuts dazzle.

They may have more luck if they change the academies name to Drugs R Us. If nothing else it would be a more accurate depiction of their club's culture.

This thread is so good I'm going to preserve it just the way it is.

You'd make a great mod, C&B.

this type of BS should result in a suspension

Wow that was hilarious Middy. #facepalm

This is how it goes apparently the FD have a budget and there allocated a certain amount of TW Sherrins a year well anyway when Viney trains if the pill is in his sights he [censored] eats it quicker than Daisycutter eats pancakes on a Sunday morning after a big night on the juice, so at a $100 a pop PJ called him into his office to explain to JV that you can't eat [censored] 15 footys each session, any one that's put a meaningful post in this thread is slower than Forrest Gump .

Viney doesn't like the book keeping program they use, he prefers MYOB.

The father of the drug cheater who appears to believe the interests and future of the club are of paramount importance and far outweigh the welfare and well being of his own son and potential grandchildren. Oh well, you make your choices just as Jab and his team mates did and you live with them. I would be protecting / supporting my offspring to the hilt.

Based on what I've seen at training and the mini intra last week and then Friday's proper intraclub, there seems little chance Grimes will slot in at half-back - although I had hoped he'd be given a shot at the Crossy-style defensive sweeper role. But what we are seeing is that Goodwin appears to have had his way in wanting more run from defence and that means sacrificing someone back there and it won't be Salem and based on his form on Friday, it won't be Jetta either, nor will it be a T-Mac, Dunn or Garland. The player who seems most likely to replace H, at least certainly this week, and then we'll see if he's physical enough, is Hunt. Terlich, when fit, is also a chance to play this role because both have pace and provided they can find targets (dubious I know) then they will be given a shot before Grimes it seems.

Didn't he go well in the NAB with us? Wait for the season proper and the pants will be soiled.

Agree. NAB is an opportunity to experiment with new rules, but this one is never be used in the real season, so why continue with it.

Why do they still have Super Goals? who cares....

Rubbish. I wish him all the best at his new club, just like Fitzpatrick at Hawthorn. I called his game as I saw it, and I'm glad you've changed your tune as well - he was ok, at best.

Or teams know his a free agent at the end of this season and can get him for nothing.

You've obviously never had a good red.

No Toump then?

Good post. Some players, like Hannebery, were elite runners as juniors, so they have a natural advantage to get to the right fitness levels quickly. Brayshaw, Oliver and Petracca aren't naturally aerobic, while Stretch and ANB are, so it's not cut and dried as to where our fitness levels are. Viney isn't a natural runner either, but he has willed himself to get where he has.

The only new information in that article was it looks like Hogan is happy to stay in Melbourne. If that's the case our chances of retaining him are massively enhanced

It's true. A few people in the know assure me that Barrett is a fwit.

I am not going to be kind to anyone when we are good again. I further plan to be particularly vicious to any of the patronising ar$3ss I know from Essendon Carlton and Collingwood - Doggies and Saints get a pass.

Well, actually, I didn't overlook Melksham's status because if you read my text it's very clear - "There is a group of players who comprise about a quarter of the club's list who were unavailable either through injury or because they were rested (and in Jake Melksham's case because of suspension for the year) ..." Melksham is a member of our playing list and that's a fact. It's also a fact that he's not on our active playing list because he's currently serving a suspension along with 33 other Bomber and former Bomber players who were found guilty of ingesting TB4 in 2012 whilst part of his club's "supplements" scandal. I have my view about the suspension and recruiting Melksham while he was facing the charges but that doesn't "implicate" us in the offence and its not really the point in the context of this discussion which is about who happens to be available to play and how that list will perform in 2016.

What was done to them?? My best mate coaches a certain age group/club in the TAC, he has worked with a number of current AFL players when they were juniors. They are fully aware at a young age as to what is acceptable. First year AFL players attend courses on gambling/drugs/social behaviour. Essendon cheated and got caught, the players were onboard and as we already know some were strong enough to say no.

nothing like plan "b"

I hope not, Jobe was average until his 2012 season. And we all know why he got better.

Can we just turn this into a thread where we make Barrett memes?