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If the proposed deals come about in essence we gain Jake Melksham, Essendon's third round pick (currently 40) and Ben Kennedy for the loss of Jimmy Toumpas and our second pick (currently pick 24). There's no real feeling on what we might get for Howe. I know many are feeling underwhelmed at the prospect of picking up either of the two players mentioned, but this is Paul Roos recruiting 101. During his time at Sydney Roos continually traded out mid-range picks for the under-rated, unappreciated talent from other clubs. I doubt that he did this on his own (unless he has some supernatural prescient powers or crystal ball in his locker), its far more likely this was a result of the FD sitting down and addressing list needs with what they could get to develop the list (see below for a potted history). Goodwin apparently rates Melksham and Taylor apparently rates Kennedy so I dare say that Roos is happy to back his team in if that's their view. The net result is we downgrade a pick in a weakish draft by 16 spots (maybe we miss a player we were targetting for, or maybe we end up with the same player anyway) and a player that isn't currently and may never be in our best 22 for two players we think will be. This is more than we collectively paid for Mitchie (pick 54), Riley (delisted) and Newton (delisted). Given that it's the same people in the FD I think it's also reasonable to assume the expectations would be for a greater output from both compared to the previous trio given we're prepared to play slightly more. Sam Frost is another classic example where we gained a player and two picks (ANB-40 and O Mac-53) for a second round pick (23 Patrick Mckenna GWS who may yet go on to be a brownlow medallist along with Josh Kelly). Lumumba for Clark was more a like for like swap (player who needed to move) rather than a typical Roos trading pattern. So Roos' trading history in brief: Started coaching mid 2002 (replaced Eade) to the end of 2010. 2002 traded in Nick Davis for pick 21 (Bo Nixon) Nixon went on to play 4 games (3 for the Pies and 1 for Hawthorn) while Nick Davis was a premiership hero (without him they arguably wouldnt have made the GF) for the Swans, played 97 games. Win/Lose deal. 2003 traded out Scott Stevens to Adelaide (119 games) for picks 29 Tim Schmidt (17 games) and pick 45 Amon Buchanan (116 games) was a premiership player. Win/Win deal. 2004 traded in Darren Jolly for Pick 15 (Lynden Dunn - 161 games) we made out like bandits and Jolly (118 games) was instrumental in Roos game plan that won them a premiership the following year. Win/Win deal. 2005 traded in Ted Richards (220 games) for picks 19 + 50 (Courtney Dempsey - 119 games and Sam Lonergan 79 games). Essendon got two handy but inconsistent players and Sydney got the cornerstone of their defence for the next decade. Win/Lose deal. 2006 traded in Peter Everitt for Pick 33 (Jarryd Morton). Morton played 22 games for Hawthorn (including probably his best against Melbourne) and Everitt another 39 for the Swans including finals- filled a need for the Swans. Lose/Lose deal. 2007 traded in Henry Playfair for pick 44 (Scott Simpson) Playfair only managed 16 games for the Swans before injury ended his career, Simpson didnt play a game for the Cats.Lose/Lose deal. 2008 traded in Rhys Shaw for pick 46 (Luke Rounds) Shaw played 143 games for the Swans and Rounds played 6 for the Pies. Win/Lose deal. 2009 The biggest trading period at his time at the club. Traded in Mark Seaby 18 games and pick 55 (Trent Dennis-Lane 19 games) for picks 22 (Gorrick Weedon 1 game for the Eagles) and pick 118 (not used); Lose/Lose traded in Mumford for pick 28 (Mitch Duncan 111 games and counting), Win/Win also traded in JPK and McGlynn for Amon Buchanan pick 46 (Ben Stratton 92 games) and pick 70 (Rookie upgrade) Win/Lose. The motherlode of trading. Overall as a package if the Swans hadn't had to cash in Mumford for TPP room for Tippet/Buddy this would be arguably one of the best trade periods by any club in terms of adding ready to go players even with Seaby as a bust. 2010 was Roos last year at the Swans, Longmire had pretty much taken over and was calling the shots on their list. This was the first time in Roos time at the club that they were inactive at the trade table. Roos' Win/Lose deals established his reputation, but there were some win/win and lose/lose trades in that bunch, but the end result is that rarely, if ever, (although these are very much subjective assessments) were the Swans on the wrong side of the ledger. My rather long winded and elaborated point is Roos has runs on the board, I'll trust in his track record.

To get a club-by-club distribution, just divide by 18! under 100k = 5 100-200k = 11 200-300k = 8 300-400k = 7 400-500k = 4 >500k = 4 (figures rounded down) I'd say we are paying '1 pay band' over for Melksham, but that's what you have to do when you are trying to assemble a team. Another way to look at it is that in one hit we have replaced the entire depth contribution from the group of NQR we've already delisted, improving on that aspect while also opening a few extra list spots for draftees. Melksham + 2 draftees is both cheaper and better than Bail + McKenzie + Riley!

If you want to have a very good idea of why we are where we are, look at the JT draft and look at the top 20 picks. Guess who played the least AFL games since and would be the biggest bust of the top 20? Answer is Gysberts, who was taken over Talia, ( the overwhelming choice of the Demonland posters at that pick), but what would they know. Prendergast was the genius behind that move and also Tapscott, the big bodied, small player who had no real postion to call his own. He was also the genius behind Lucas Cook, our number 12 pick who never played an AFL game and a host of other wasted draft picks. I see Prendergast's time at the club, as the single biggest reason we are where we are ATM. Thank God Taylor and Roos are trying to change things. We have under Roos turned over 50% of the list and that could hit 75% by the end of drafting time this year. We also have Brendan Mc Cartney heading our development program and Goodwin in the wings ready to Coach. We also have a decent CEO running the club. We are being given every chance to become a good club again.

I got dragged off to the Grand Final parade by my Hawk supporting in laws today. I decided to wear my MFC cap and shirt in defiance and it paid off. Jesse Hogan was in the back of one of the first few cars as the Rising Star and stopped briefly next to me frantically waving and although he was talking to a child next to him in the car, he did a double take when he noticed the colours and gave me a wink and a thumbs up! The next car was a let down with only Clarko and Hodge on board and I lost interest from there.

I have never seen Howe put in a 4 quarter performance in 100 games of football. He goes missing far too often. If the club really wants 22 "competitors" I doubt Howe is in their plans.

Following a footy club like ours is all about hope. So we can dare to dream even if the dream is unrealized, as dreams are often symbolic of our hopes. None of us would be following our beloved old demons without continuing to hope for future success and a flag, Perhaps we are hoping for a miracle but miracles are sometimes realized. I enjoy the speculation because of what it represents. I have greater joy when the speculation is based on reality.

Prestia has not knocked us back forever, all he has said is he will complete his current contract which expires next year. He has no intentions of extending his contract at the Suns in the interim either, so he's clearly a player waiting to see what happens over the next 12 months. And I know for a fact he faces a lot of family pressure to come home. Yes his family are big time Melbourne supporters but I reckon they just want him living close by regardless of which club after this year's drug headlines up there. That is why speculation on Prestia has not died down. In fact, I G'tee the Suns lose either 1 or both of Prestia & O'Meara next year unless they have a truly stupendous turnaround this year, and even then I reckon those 2 boys are as good as gone anyway. And as we've seen with Danger, Buddy, Scully etc, these deals are often organized 12 months in advance..... Plus there's the reports of Clayton & Viney catching up a few times which only adds to the intrigue (although most assumed at the time it was regarding Howe). I'm glad we are being so active & hope like hell we can land one or 2 this year & next.

point taken boys.

All this thread does is flatten the battery on the phone.

It was discussed on Demonland at the time. We had 7 top 20 draft picks between 2008 and 2009. It was imperative we get them right. For varying reasons, such as Trengove's foot, all have been a fail. Throw in Morton at pick 4 in 2007 and our drafting set us back 7-8 years. He lucked out with Max Gawn, but a chimp with a dart board would have got one right.

Frost is still missing a toe. Should be alright in 4 to 6.

Two delisted Demons in Aidan Riley and Jack Fitzpatrick headed the field in the Gardner-Clark Medal for Casey Scorpions club best and fairest tonight. The votes went to:- 97 Aidan Riley 80 Jack Fitzpatrick 75 Mitch Gent 73 Jack Hutchins 72 Timothy Smith 70 Viv Michie 69 Mark Jamar 67 Rohan Bail 60 Jack Grimes 57 Jordie McKenzie Skipper Evan Panozza was awarded life membership for 10 years of service to the club. The Development League best and fairest winner was Jake Gains. Congratulations to all.

Very sad anniversary - just today I had occasion to tell someone why I have a deep-seated loathing of Whorethorn. That overrated thug, Diperdomenico, crunching Robert Flower on the outer wing at Arctic Park on Preliminary Final day 1987 and rogering his shoulder. Even if Jimmy hadn't run over the mark (albeit after the siren) thereby ensuring Buckenara's after siren goal, the harsh reality was that Robbie wouldn't have run out on to the ' G' the following week. I sincerely hope the Weagles tear Hawthorn a new one.

One of the happiest days of my life. And Robbie bought the slab!

You know what the forum needs? A dedicated area with that has threads on certain players that are updated only when there is legit news. A twitter post from a journo, something mentioned on Trade Radio etc. It can only be updated by the mods, or you can only post news - there is no discussion, just news. You can discuss it all here though. It would make it easier to log in and see if there was something REALLY happening, rather than sifting through page after page to find there is no news at all. Just a suggestion...

Really? And you felt the need to highlight your lack of grace with a lack of wit? What's the third act?

Why is it if someone has an opinion of a player that doesn't abide to unabashed fawning then it must be 'hate' There are those in society for whom i have feelings of hate and that I despise . Professional football players aren't generally amongst them. I have an opinion of Howe. It's that he's overhyped and that hes simply a fairly average player with a very non-avarage capacity to take speccues but for mine i look at his ground work, his ability to provide a role, his ability as a goal kicker etc. Aerials 9/10..all the rest about 6/10 I don't hate Howe. I simply don't have a misplaced over inflated valuation of him. I don't think the club does either otherwise I'd put it that he'd be re-signed on the money Jez thinks he's worth.

My favorite part of grand final day is when it's over and I don't have to see Hawthorn win another flag for 365 days.

Then stop reading it & just wait for the real announcements.

I'm so torn about tomorrow. It would be horrible to see Hawthorn win a THIRD flag in a row, but I've got so many Eagle supporting mates and the last thing that I want is to see them happy. I'll be watching with the hope that both teams lose.

A bit late, but 2 days ago I was told by someone who has regular contact with McCartney that he told them a week ago that he'd signed on for another year with MFC, and that Worsfold has the Essendon gig. 3rd hand, but I believe it.

Dion Prestia is still the most gettable big fish, huge MFC connections, right age bracket, and his injury and unwillingness to commit long term forces the suns to consider any offer we might through up, I think the no could turn into a yes very quickly when trade week starts if the club plays it's cards right. I don't buy the Luke Parker rumours at all, he's a rising star of the competition playing at a team that has some good young talent and is consistently playing finals, the only real lure we have for him is we are a Vic side, Roosy is here for one more year and we can offer a bit more money coz they stupidly signed buddy on 3/4 of their salary cap.

I rate Kennedy very highly, he's got pace and good skills, really good footy smarts and a hard edge, he can play on ball or as a very dangerous half forward, get Macca to work on him and we'll see a very good partner for Dean kent in 2016

I would add CS & the board to that list...

In response to Redlegs post about Kennedy, you said: Implying because he's small, you have zero interest in him. Not making any comments regarding disposal, hardness or overal ability. To top it off you then insult Redleg when he rightly points out that there are several good small players.I know it's tough trying to keep yourself from flying off the handle when living your life as a keyboard warrior in your ivory tower. But maybe you can do us all a favour and dissappear for awhile.

You're probably right however what we need to do is to be proactive. Most of these types aren't likely to budge but the world's a funny place and you might just strike one that for whatever reason might listen to an offer. All is not always what it seems from afar/outside.The better clubs persist with searching. Youd be amazed how many very pretty girls aren't asked out etc because everyone presumes the knockback. Point is ...you dont ask...and you're guaranteed a no by default.

For those too young or anyone unfortunate enough to have not seen the great man in action. But a glimpse of his amazing talent. A true Demon who remained loyal. We miss you dearly.

What sticks with me is that beaming bloody smile when he stood on stage after being drafted to us. I'm not ready to let go.

Melksham is a mixture of good and bad, but his good bits of play are the type that we really lack and are hard to get. He has good pace and excellent movement in contests, which allows him to break out of contests into space and move the ball quickly. The best teams can break into space and that's where a lot of the scoring now comes from. Melksham can do some things that make you rip your hair out but he has a skill that we lack, in an age group that is important. If he becomes the quality midfielder he was drafted to be then great, but if not he becomes a mature role player to bring a unique skill to our team.

If their offer is 3rd round then it's madness letting him go for that. He's a highly rated Pick 4 with an injury interrupted three years in the system, who this year produced a game with 26 possessions, 8 tackles and 2 goals. It's evidence that he CAN play. There is a distinct sense of panic button here based on past failings. i trust the club is looking at this sensibly.

Where did I say Kennedy was in Boomer's class? I was just mentioning a small player who was not too bad. Great how the insult is thrown in as well.

A piece of history about our greatest ever player - Ron Barassi on growing up in Guildford

Sounds like the club have played this perfectly.

Best I have seen... RIP

Important to note that we're using 2014 data. Salary cap in 2019 when Melksham's reported contract runs out will be much higher. Be interesting to try and identify 7 members of Hawthorn's grand final team that are on less than 300 grand.

I'd back cholera. It's got runs on the (floor)board.

I will be very disappointed if we lose Toumpas and Howe and we get back Kennedy and Melksham.. people are actually happy with that? Really? He's a 'nervous nelly' now, but what happens when one day he looks around and everyone around him is smaller/younger than him. You lose that nervousness in close. I would hate to see Toumpas start killing it at Port and all we got was a third round and the above two. I'm not adverse to trading him, but a fire sale is not required.

While I'm no fan, I wouldn't have expected 0 games when so many other players in the same boat played plenty. He the only player on the list not to play excluding projects and the long term injured. As I said in the contracts thread, you've got to pay him regardless, so if we've no intention of playing him, give him his cash up front and free up the spot on the list.

If GWS agree to trade Mcarthey they will rightly demand a first round pick and a best 22 player. there is potential that we could get Howe involved in the trade and help get that deal done, hopefully get something decent out of it as well, maybe Adam Tommlinson or pick 16 from freo

I was chuffed when we got Tapscott.

If a player is average and small it's worse than a player who is average and 185 cm. Kennedy is average and small. A good VFL player. I wouldn't have thought this would be a revelation around here. So when I question a potential trade targets height I don't need reminding of the Tony Liberatore's of this world. Btw, you'll forgive me if I don't take the advice of someone who'd happily resurrect Col Sylvia's career.

It's coming from Demon Fans Hopes & Dreams Inc. This company still runs even though it hasn't made a decent product for a generation...

He's a good footy player. I much prefer the desire to turn footy players into athletes that we seem to doing in the last two years than trying to get some 'specimens' in and teach them footy.

Meatloaf.

It was a shock to see Fitzy on the Footy Show players review last night. Maybe as it's a shallow draft pool, he has been offered a rookie spot if he has no interest from other clubs. He certainly would be handy as he can play forward, back and in the ruck. Like with Nev Jetta, it might be the kick up Fitzy's arse that he needs to take his game to the next level.

He will be in their best 22 next year and probably push for another flag or 2 for the next couple of years.No chance at all.

Apparently Hogan and Club in preliminary discussions about a long term contract. Gist of which suggests..." you want to stay....money isn't an issue " Bodes well

If we were to land either I would be spending a lot of time having relations with myself

They do sit on these stories until an opportunistic moment. The Bennell one was similar... That said, I'm more interested in the Malthouse era flags. Skinny little boys to men in one preseason, Charles Atlas couldn't have achieved these results without some help.