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Great, another Cameron Bruce thread.

I had to join to comment on this thread... Hello all. Who honestly thinks Grimes stepped down from Captaincy himself? Or thinks Watts dropped himself?? Roos is forcing accountability; you drop yourself, then you expect yourself to be better. An insecure coach would chest beat and shame those players, ruining them. Sound familiar? Grimes is a better player for the beating Roos gave him, dropped as captain, dropped from the team. He put to Watts the reality, it's up to Watts. 50/50 ball, some things in football will never change. Bail, M Jones, Fitz are all given their opportunity, given a role. Accountable or roll. A few will step up - Garland did last week. Grimes has this season. Jetta last season. He's protecting the young players. I'll bet Brayshaw will go into this game knowing it will be his last for a month, QB reward for opening block. Resting Viney / Tyson / Salem / Kent / Frost / Hogan until they are absolutely fit to play - while the older players can carry injury (Vince). N Jones is struggling with Captaincy. But he will rise and become a greater player for it, or fall away. Either way he needs that challenge. Roos isn't just trying to win games, he's building a winning side.

I don't give a stuff about his skills - I loved Cameron Bruce. Sensational player in his prime.

Woohoo a Jack Watts thread, been waiting for one of these!

I love Paul Roos.

Matt Jones isn't the problem. Him being in a position to play AFL games for MFC is the problem.

This is Collingwoods line up from last week. Using what players they played on last week this is how I would see it. These are the match ups I would run with. Yes, I'd give a couple of guys another go even with their form, I just think this is our best team on paper with everyone doing what they are supposed to. Effectively; In: Tyson, Newton Out: Bail, MJones 8 Tom Langdon/Watts 16 Nathan J. Brown/Hogan 26 Marley Williams/Garlett 34 Alan Toovey/Howe 45 Jack Frost/Pedersen 6 Tyson Goldsack/Newton 43 Adam Oxley/vandenBerg 36 Dane Swan/Cross(Tagged) 40 Paul Seedsman/Jones 5 Jamie Elliott/Garland 9 Jesse White/Dunn 22 Steele Sidebottom/Lumumba(Taking resting mid) 15 Jarrod Witts/Fitzpatrick(Taking resting ruck) 32 Travis Cloke/McDonald 11 Jarryd Blair/Jetta Followers 4 Brodie Grundy/Spencer 25 Jack Crisp/Tyson 10 Scott Pendlebury/Vince(Tagged) Interchange 1 Alex Fasolo/Grimes 13 Taylor Adams/Brayshaw 18 Travis Varcoe/Viney Subs 35 Jordan De Goey/Toumpas

I don't love Paul Roos, but I do respect him. He is intelligent, articulate, credible and commands respect from players, staff, the media and the football world. Our playing group may not have the respect of the football world, but Paul Roos gives the club a level of respect that we would not otherwise have. I can't think of anyone better than Paul Roos to coach this side. He provides reasons for the bad losses not excuses. Is he right? Perhaps yes, perhaps no. However, I can't say he is wrong or talking rubbish. Would it be any better without Roos - No. Could it be worse without Roos-Yes. I would prefer 5 years rather than 3, but that is the situation. At least with the current coaching staff and the succession plan we do have stability and a long term plan. We not longer have the media saying that the club is in a mess or in disarray. We have stability in our coaching staff and administration. That is required to achieve long term success on the playing field.

I'm not so sure why it is hard to understand that we have players on our list that aren't good enough.

There's no one who could do a better job than Paul Roos rebuilding this mess. Gotta back him in all the way.

I used to think it was an escape from the real world Dr. As a Dees supporter I now see the real world as an escape from the horror of the football world

It is staggering nutbean How hard is it to see.

Are you blokes serious? When PR took over we were a 2 win 55% team. If it wasn't for the expansion teams our win/loss and percentage would have been worse. In fact the expansion teams somewhat hid how crap we were as they were the only teams we could beat. Problem was they got better and we remained a disgrace. How long do you think it takes to turn this ship around? He has only been around for just over a season and a bit, give him a break. I'd love to see you experts do better.

When the Dees are playing interstate on a Sunday, my routine is to watch all of the Sunday footy review shows, plan as lazy a day as possible - to the displeasure of she who must be obeyed - and generally sit back and watch Channel 7’s Footy Flashbacks, before the live footy begins. Last Sunday, it featured the history of the surviving Collingwood Captains. While I despise our mortal enemy, I found myself getting quite nostalgic. The consolation was how the earlier part of the show concentrated on Collingwood’s regular finals appearances in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s, without ever taking the major prize - a flag. They were masters at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Names like Terry Waters, Max and Wayne Richardson, Barry Price, Twiggy Dunne and of course Peter McKenna featured heavily in the early part of the show. While I detested the black and white, I always had a begrudging admiration for Bobby Rose; a true gentleman, whose time as coach was blighted by so many near misses. Inevitably, the show then featured the 1990 season. The toothless brigade had not won a flag since 1958, when they upset a much more fancied Melbourne and Barry “Hooker” Harrison whacked Ronald Dale. They performed highway robbery and stole the consecutive flag record from us. At the end of the 1990 season, Melbourne finished 4th, with 16 wins and 6 losses. Essendon finished minor premiers and in what was then a final 5, Collingwood finished second. The Dees season started spectacularly with a 53 point win over North. In round 3, we beat Essendon by 27 points at the ‘G. There were many stunning highlights for the Dees during the 1990 season. In round 7 we beat West Coast by 55 points and the following week demoralised Richmond by 53 points. Come round 9 we were soundly beaten by a Hawthorn team, whose glory days were showing signs of going into hibernation, albeit, as history shows, temporarily. Hawthorn would eventually finish 5th in 1990. Back to back losses would come in the form of a 52 point thrashing at the hands of Collingwood in round 10. Mid season saw the Dees lose their focus and the season was in danger of going off the rails. Our slump reached its lowest ebb with a 127 point demolition by Kangaroos in round 14, which represented a 180 point turn around from our win over North in round 1. In round 16, we finally got our season back on track, with our second win for the year against the Bombers.. Trailing by 27 points at 3 quarter time and with Essendon kicking the first goal of the final term, the Dees went on to kick 8 goals to 2, with Darren Bennett rising to the challenge, to run out 8 point winners at Windy Hill. Oh what a sweet victory that was. In round 19 we trounced the Swans by 67 points, followed by another win over the West Coast at Subiaco by 36 points. Our last game of the year witnessed a do or die struggle with Hawthorn at the ‘G, where we ultimately prevailed by 2 goals. The following week saw us pitted against the Hawks again in the Elimination final on Sunday. The first half was a tight tussle, with the Hawks leading at half time by 7 points. The 3rd quarter saw the Dees come out and slam on 6 goals to the Hawks 1, to see the Demons go into the the final term with 4 goal lead. The final stanza was a desperately tight struggle, with skipper Sugar Healy showing plenty of courage and determination. The Hawks would kick 3 goals to our 1 in the last quarter, but with Sugar running with the flight of the ball, at the Punt Road end, deep in the last quarter, he marked and sealed the win for the mighty Demons. It seemed we had our Mojo back. The day before, Collingwood was having its own problems out at Arctic Park against West Coast. The game was tight all day, but Peter Sumich had a chance to steal it with a kick right on the siren. Had the Colliwobbles struck again? The angle tight, Sumich lining up from the non-preferred pocket, he kicked a point making the game a draw. In those days, there was no extra time, so the 2 sides had to get themselves up again, for a rematch the following week, effectively giving Melbourne a weeks rest. Not a bad luxury for a team that only made the elimination final. The replay saw Collingwood have it all over the Eagles and the Pies ran out winners by just under 10 goals. So it was with confidence that we went to Waverley the following Saturday to take on what surely must have been a demoralised and battle weary West Coast side. From the first bounce this was a fiery affair and from my perspective, it seemed we fell for West Coast’s 3 card trick. In the second quarter, West Coast kept us goalless while they piled on 6 majors. Honours were split in the premiership quarter, with both sides booting 6 apiece. It would seem though, the damage had been done and our hopes of a preliminary final berth were all but gone. The final term saw us kick 7 goals to the Eagles 3, but the margin was too great to overcome. I remember Rod Grinter trying his best to fly the flag, but unfortunately he had few mates on the day and it was all too late. The fact that we were totally sucked in by the Eagles’ aggression and that bar for the second quarter brain fade, we matched them in all other aspects, meant that we let a precious chance slip. History records that in 1990, the crowd from Hoar Frost Park in Collingwood won their first flag in 32 years. It was the year that saw the Dees participate in the finals for the 4th consecutive year. But for me, out of those 4 years, I had the sense that 1990 was the year that got away. Of course the mid season jitters did not help our cause, but I reckon, we were as good as anyone come the business end of the season. We were more mature and battle hardened than we were in ’87, no-one was going to beat omnipotent Hawthorn in ’88 and although it was a credit to us to back up again in ’89, we weren’t in the same class at the Hawks and the Cats that year. To this day, I certainly believe we would have run Collingwood close for that Premiership Cup. Oh, what could have been for the MFC in 1990!!!!

Salem and JKH 2 weeks off according to Misson.Dawes a week off, Tyson to play, Frost and Kent another 4-6. Jamar not mentioned or listed so presumably he will play VFL again. Think that just leaves Trenners and Petracca. Slowly edging back to our best side.

I like the idea of combining Cale Morton, Paul Johnson and Addam Maric - you would have had a tall,short, fat, skinny bloke who couldn't get near the ball

He managed to instill enough confidence in us to come back from a 100 point loss to beat the highly rated Dogs Roos isn't the problem. We are so lucky to have him, and anyone who buys his media spin is a fool. What he says publicly has no bearings on what he says privately to his players.

Essendon's PR machine has been magnificent from day 1. They have spouted absolute shite but if you look at things such as Stand By Hird, Don the Sash etc etc they have been very good, with a lot of help from the their mates at the Hun, there is also a very good reason for their cooperation but I wont go there for fear of over stepping the line. The sheer number of people in the public who feel the players are hard done by, that the club has copped enough, that the whole thing should be over, is testament to the effectiveness of the EFC media machine. This is also shown in the bile that is pushed Caro's way anytime she says anything, along with a few of her compatriots as well. Would not surprise me if it is used as a case study for 'how to bluff the punters to believe your BS' in the future.

Noticing a shift in the media campaign from the EFC in the last couple of days. Straight after the appeal was announced it was all about how everyone was surprised (must have been because they still don't understand the position they are in), and how they wished WADA would just let them be. Very few Jounos actually came out and said it how it was, and that is that the appeal should be welcomed as it will get everything out in the open once and for all. I have noticed in the last day or so that we are seeing articles talking about how this has affected the list at Essendon, from standing by their loyal players, to what could have been with the draft picks they lost. Maybe it is the cynic in me but I see this as the next stage in positioning the club as the hard done by party in the whole affair, and how they have already copped their whack, and been wonderful in standing by their players etc etc. The cynic has been especially roused as these have come out at the same time as the announcement about the Dank appeal, the man everyone wants gone. Could it be that the EFC, through the HS, are running this campaign so we all feel sorry for the players and club while venting about Dank? Will be interesting to se if this line continues from the complicit media over the next few weeks, or was this convenient irrelevancy just a once off?

Good on you PD for taking the time and effort to reconsider your views. Few bother (on both sides of the debate with many polarising issues), which of course is part of the problem and i have respect for those that do. One only need to look at the numbers of children going into state care around the country to see that there is a serious issue of child abuse in many non aboriginal communities, particularly ones that suffer from entrenched poverty. But you are right to say there is a serious problem of child abuse in some (many?) aboriginal remote communities. A key issue is the causal factors for this problem, for it is only in understanding properly what is at the heart of it that effective, meaningful preventative responses can be developed. A failure to properly understand the cause leads to bad (and often damaging) public policy. As a poster noted way earlier a key causal factor is the history of colonization and all its horrors (horrors that Adam Goodes has been brave enough to make clear) and subsequent government policies and community values (Little Goffys posts a re a powerful reminder of these). These elements have caused untold damage for both the Aboriginal people and the broader Australian community since colonization. When communities, families and support systems are destroyed you end up where were are now. The same story has tragically played out in indigenous communities around the world post colonization. We can't spend our way out this problem. We can only heal our way out of the problem. And it is not just a problem for Aboriginal people it is a problem for all of us. I have total respect for Adam Goodes for using his platform to create dialogue and yes argument - for using his platform to speak plain truth, truth that need not only to be accepted but internalized by Australia if we are to move forward as healthy society. I loved the comments from Micky O in this article, basically saying if not Adam (and him) who is going to say what needs to be sad, to carry on the work of their elders? I appreciate that some people don't like the message or the delivery but i respect people who stand up for what they think is right.

I've read a fair bit, but decided to do more research, as I'd made a declaration on here. Upon further reading there was enough doubt for me to question long-held beliefs. My views mirror Bolt on most things, but I don't share his angst at Goodes' dance, or him equating it to Sheedy's throat slit to White or the "shotgun". The analogies are as silly as people complaining about being vilified for red hair. Anyway, you can please yourself what you think of me. I'm not invested in you.

Agreed. 2 goals a game, with said getting the best defender and getting double teamed etc. Also hasn't gone goalless yet. Clearly the most promising young player in the game.

Our capitulation on the weekend says nothing about game day coaching, more about weak leadership on the field, that goes to water when the heat is turned up.

Liam woewhelan

Jesse loves melbourne, got homesick while injured and the club flew him home multiple times, but as I've said many times, our young core is strong and close and he loves the club, keep improving and keep jesse, he already knocked back a monster deal from the fockers twice

sadly, if the verdict at cas goes against essendon, most essendon supporters will never accept it it will be lindy chamberlain mark II unless if course someone breaks rank and whistleblows or confesses

Former Saint tough guy Lazar Vidovic and Dayne Beams would be a handy combo.... Lazar Beams.............

The good old days when our biggest problem was Bruce being soft and missing targets, and us missing out on finals every 2nd season.

What is that avatar you are wearing SoNS? It reminds me of a photoshopped image I have somewhere of Lee Harvey Oswald just as he was shot... they photoshopped a microphone into his hand and various musical instruments amongst the security surrounding him...

'P-man', you do know not to trust anything Roos says...the one thing he did say that led to this is "I'm not going to tell you", in response to Robbo. Then he left a few breadcrumbs on the table for him, going on about spooked by the past. He knows what he's doing, he's just not letting on. Don't believe all his spooked stuff, that's the red herring. He knows there is not enough talent but you don't come out and say that when you are trying to get a good price for it at the end of the year. Think Silvia, Frawley, Clark...

Yeah, no-one knows why the ability to execute deserts the players so quickly en masse, and I certainly would not say it is Roos' fault, but it certainly is his problem, and his job to remedy. To that end, I don't envy his job, but it is his job.

Exactly! I bet you he'd love to say exactly what he thinks. This is what I'd imagine he wish he could say.....I've been here two drafts, and have got rid of as many crap players as list management rules allow. This is a full list rebuild. I've gotten rid of 22 bloody players and still we've got players who can't kick, man up, tackle or have guts. Line is in the sand now for the remaining 18-20 other players, start playing like an AFL player or you're out.

I agree, can't wait to see him on Monday. I'd just like to say also, this kid gets me genuinely excited to go to the footy again! Even after the Hawks game I wanted to go the Footscray game just to see him play.

Having actually cared for Aboriginal children as a foster carer this is still true today. No doubt there were children removed cruelly and unjustly in the past. There are a number of children that remain in horrendous situations because of over-sensitivity by government departments to the "stolen generation" and fears of being labelled racist being put in front of the welfare of children. But then the sad plight of many indigenous kids in this country is symptomatic of a much bigger issue. Whether you like him or not, Goodes has refused to be a victim, and if that catches on then he is a positive influence for Aboriginal people.

yup - whether it is lack of talent or lack of intestinal fortitude/mental toughness - not good enough is not good enough. I will go very early on Brayshaw - I am not sure whether he is super talented or not. What I am confident on is that he has the mental toughness required to be a top line footballer. He has shown in nearly all the games this year that whether we are winning or losing his intensity and effort rarely varies. Undoubtedly we need talent, but if we have 20 players running around with Brayshaw's approach to the game you go a long way to winning.

cas might deliver some very dramatic list management results

There's an article in the age this morning about Watson the Elder lamenting the effect of the saga on Essendon's list management. Because list management is the most important thing here, not unknown substances administered to young men over a protracted period by their employer. But what do I know?

It's a harsh view to take, but sometimes I feel as though Watts really embodies the mental scars. Even more than that, they were branded upon him by the club, in the darkest days through which his whole career has been. I don't think he'll ever have a successful career with us and he is not the only one (of course). We need to send him onwards with the others and get what we can for them, which will be mostly just list space. Continue to turn the list over, and it has been working the last couple of years with Taylor and co nailing the picks and the trades.

BBO has 12 more posts than Moonshadow (5374 vs 5362). An amazingly small gap considering the large numbers at play. I'm starting to wonder if you're the same nutcase person, just replying to yourself all the time...

The racism displayed here is not 'mild' racism, it is racism. Adam Goodes is well within his rights to use his position to to bring awareness to the plight of indigenous Australians. His dance was an expression of pride in his culture, that's all. Get over it! This reminds me of what happens when a representative of any repressed culture stands up proudly for his people. The people in the advantaged position don't like it and instinctively argue to discredit it. Think of the response to Muhammad Ali, who spoke out for his people and refused to play the well-behaved but benign African-American. He is seen as a hero now but at the time he was hated. Turn over to Q&A right now and hear some thoughtful analyse about this. The fact is, the indigenous culture in Australia has been discriminated systematically throughout our history. It continues to happen and this ridiculous response to Adam Goodes display of pride clearly illustrates this.

Roosy on 360 tonight...totally frustrated! Stopped short of naming culprits who sook up and cannot adapt to his new style. It looks like he will slash and burn again at seasons end. I will be controversial here and declare our leadership group are part of the problem. Too many on our list who cannot improve themselves although they are been led by an A grade coaching panel.

Matt Jones is not the problem. He's a good depth player. Every club has them. We need more genuine stars in the midfield. Everyone here who goes about M Jones, Terlich, Bail, McKenzie needs to realise that these players are not taking much of the cap. It's the guys who are paid the big $$$ who need to be more accountable - because that money can and should be spent on quality players from other clubs who would deliver more.

Actually this is a great thread, and the last few pages have had people learning, examining and re-examining views, which have been articulated pretty respectfully.

I'd just like to take a moment to say I am disappointed in myself for going too far on the 'Irish' thing. I try not to get riled up, but I clearly overstepped. I still maintain that the comparison someone made between the hard history of the Irish and the continuing debacle of the treatment of Indigenous Australians was absurd, and frankly gross considering the material efforts at 'reconciliation' between the British and Irish traditions int he last 80 years or so. I do also understand that Ireland was the test case; the Irish people were the first and longest victims of the most noxious aspects of the British Empire's attitude of superiority, disdain, exploitation and abuse. So, if I may, I'd like to restate what I was getting at, but in a more appropriate way; "In Australia, Aboriginal people would dream of attaining the level of rights, inclusion and assumption of equality that Irish people have attained through their own long and painful process of reconciliation. Indeed, this is all that reconciliation really seeks and it is shameful that it has been made so hard." On a similar note, I'm a bit disappointed by people jumping on ProDee's declaration that he had done some more reading and now has enough doubt about the Stolen Generation subject that he is going to keep looking into it. The people who have demanded he immediately and totally reverse his past position do nothing but remind him of why it never seemed worth the trouble to engage with the 'other side' before.

No he's not 'the' problem. But he is most definitely an unfortunate result of one of the many problems we have with our list. One being that we've had so many top 20 draft picks fail over the past 5 + years. Had some of those guys come on like they should have, Matt Jones wouldn't be on our list. The plight of the MFC is complex and there are so many factors that have contributed to it. Our recruiting is simply one of many. I agree with posters who continue to back Roos and ask for patience. It's as if some people live in this fantasy world in which they believe players like Fitzpatrick, McKenzie and Bail will all make it if given enough time. The reality is we've had to hold on to average players over the past couple of seasons simply because we've had no other choice. We've had so many of them and there can only be so many delistings made at the end of each season. As well as being aware of when certain contracts finish etc. There are underperforming and mentally scarred senior players that still need to go just as there are players who are simply not good enough that will need to go. Next year will be the third year that Roos will have had to slowly but surely reshape our list in a mindful way. It's a waiting game. No club has had a list as bad as we've had for this amount of time. No club. It's not that amazing that we capitulate like we have been during games when there are still so many [censored] kickers running around.

If posters are going to pot Roos for all the bad that still happens (usually by players he did not recruit) then he needs to be given credit for the good things, especially for the players he did recruit. Jesse said it so well: "Angus has taken straight to (AFL), he's got that competitive edge. Christian Petracca and all the rest of (Melbourne's young players) have a red-hot crack and all the talent, so it's a very exciting prospect over the next couple of years."

Are you actually reading the posts, or are you doing what others seem to be which is throwing a blanket over them marked "Paul Roos criticism: BAD"? Yeah, we pretty much all back in Roos. He's a premiership coach and a damn good one. More importantly, we have no choice but to back him in. If he says or does something I disagree with, I'm going to question it, or at the very least, question the motivation behind it. The oft repeated line about ghosts of the past is a get out clause. Looking at the team fielded on Saturday, you'd be lucky if it could even apply to a third of them. As I asid, the motivation could well be preparing an argument for delisting/trading players already in his sights. We weren't good enough, that's the reason. Players aren't missing targets because 186 is running through their mind.

Knowing personally people who were "removed" from family situations only to be sexually abused in institutional and foster care, I would qualify your argument. Certainly there has been rampant sexual abuse in some Aboriginal communities - the Swan River camp in Perth in the 90s being one of the worst examples - but the lead in exposing this practice was taken by Aboriginal women and some men, at some risk to themselves. The Howard government intervention was an opportunistic grab at control of communities and their resources, especially the land, that did little to control the abuse. Removal to prevent abuse is a frying pan/fire strategy.

Finally, the tough love: http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-06-01/paul-roos-flags-delistings-at-melbourne-after-port-disappointment

Great, now sign him up forever! lol i'm serious...