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Insight is on in the background and Clint Bartram popped up to talk about his degenerative knee condition and stem cell treatment. I was only half concentrating but really took not when he said his knee was at the point that he couldn't stand up for half an hour without pain and swelling. He indicated that the treatment has improved his comfort and mobility in day to day life but not to a level to return to elite sport. I really liked the way Clint went about his football. He is probably a great example of the sort of 24-28 year old clubman type that our club has really missed. He was rarely beaten, and while many on here bemoan his kicking, I thought he really grew as a player particularly in his last season. I remember his awesome boundary goal v Essendon (I think) in the 2012 season. I also think that the way we have handled players in recent years - Jurrah, Bartram, Clark - is something that us supporters should be very proud to support a club like Melbourne.

Given the way some of the discussions go, thought this was relevant...

Maybe a "no longer good enough" category for Byrnes & Clark would suit you better. Mario Bortolotto has two premiership medals at home as well ! Doesn't mean he's currently "good enough". Byrnes is obviously past his peak.

I have been wanting to do this for a few weeks now after not wanting to do this last year - it would be even more depressing... But I want people to see how sick this list is when compared to a middling AFL team like Collingwood/GC/Adelaide and not just those teams around us at the bottom - so 'AFL Calibre' amounts to 'AFL average.' This comes into play especially for the Rotation Mid and the Not Good Enough groups that I am basing on whether they would get a game in a middling team like those above. I have split the list into 6 groups - the first three of which are AFL Calibre and the last three not there yet, most likely won't be there, and 'not enough info.' The AFL is 'midfielders league' and so the AFL Calibre groups are: ELITE MID - N Jones ROTATION MID - Viney, Tyson, Cross, Vince, M Jones POSITIONAL ROLE PLAYER - Watts, Dawes, Frawley, Dunn, Garland, Pedersen, McDonald, Grimes, Howe, Jamar, Jetta The next groups are: POTENTIAL AFL CALIBRE - Hogan, Salem, Trengove, Kent, JKH, Gawn, Spencer NOT GOOD ENOUGH - Byrnes, Clark, McKenzie, Blease, Strauss, Nicholson, Evans, Tapscott, Terlich, Fitzpatrick, Bail MORE INFO REQUIRED - Toumpas, Clisby, Michie, Riley, Hunt, Barry, Harmes, King, Georgiou, Westrupp Analysis We don't have enough AFL Calibre players to compete with middling teams but even more disturbing is the lack of midfield depth that struggles to compete against these middling teams. I umm and ahhed over a few of them and you can argue around the edges with Bail, Trengove, and McKenzie but the premise is sound; with only 17 AFL Calibre players and only 7 looking destined to join them in the next few years our list is not in a great shape. But there is little wonder Roos' ceiling of improvement has been hit at this low point with only 17 AFL Calibre players (and some of them out of form) to work with. He is going to need a couple more summers like the last one and his continued work with the list - since Roos took over he has added 6 AFL Calibre players through recruitment and development.

ha. ha. ha....

You don't have to partake in the discussion if you don't want to - my point was to essentially say that we have 28 players that are not ready to compete in the AFL at the level of even a middling club. S-home for example was absolutely mystified a few weeks ago about the assertion that 20 players were not in the future of the club. I can barely get 20 players that have established themselves that they will be the present of the club. Stay, discuss and refute - or find another thread to contribute to...

Turner says that every year. Then he conveniently forgets that and says it again a year later about another player.

Rumour has it? He probably got his information from Demonland.

Jones is averaging 6 clearances a game this year, =13th in the league... He averages 2.4 centre clearances per game, =12th in the league...

i don't think a coach has ever existed who was 100% correct 100% of the time ergo: your argument only has limited value and is not absolute. this forum is an opinion based forum and nobody is infallible

You have to pay between 95% (was raised from 92.5% a couple of years ago) and 100% of the salary cap each year. The salary cap is set to be $10.071 million in 2015, this includes all guaranteed base payments and any performance incentives (games played and other KPI's) for the 40 main list players and the 4-6 rookie list players. For each veteran on your list (10+ years) you get an extra 1.23% (~$115,000) on the salary cap and there are concessions available for the inclusion of rookie players (up to 50% of a players wage) based on the number of rookies you have. They average wage for a current AFL player is approx $230,000. They are set to introduce a new rule stating that if a team pays under the salary cap for 2 consecutive years, they can then pay overs in the following year equivalent to the amount not spent or 5% - eg. you spend 98% 2 years in a row you can spend 104% in the third year, you spend 95% 2 years in a row you can spend 105%. This has been introduced to make lower teams more competitive in FA, as they can throw more money at players if they haven't paid the full salary cap in previous years. Players who have been taken in the National or Rookie drafts and who have not played AFL before are on guaranteed contracts with the $ value set by the AFL, based on where you are taken in the draft. Players in the first 2 years also have pretty decent KPI's based on games played (approx $2,500 per game played) allowing them to earn very good money ($150,000+) in their second year. There are a large number of variables involved with player contracts (such as performance payments and trigger clauses), however to simplify it players are given a set amount over a set period of years (the numbers reported in papers are generally based on the player achieving all KPI's). For example, Mitch Clark was reportedly on 750-800k, this included approx 100-150k based on him playing a set number of games, as he didn't play the required amount he will be paid approx 600-650k this year. The list manager does a bunch of calculations on how likely it is that players will hit their KPI's, after this they will have a rough idea of what the Total Player Payments are and how much $$ we will have left to play with. You have to pay the minimum cap of 95%, if after KPI's have been taken in to account there is $$ left, they will typically look to front/ back end a contract, paying a player a larger amount this year (and lesser amounts in subsequent years) to ensure that we meet the minimum payments, eg. in 2011 we had a pretty turd list and needed to front-end a large amount of cash to make the minimum payment, James Frawley signed a new 4 year deal and had a fair chunk of it front loaded in the first year to ensure we met the cap. Hopefully that's gives you a basic overview of the salary cap/ list management.

The defence comments are actually quite detailed. Look at the difference between the comments for Strauss (concentration), Georgiou (wrestling technique), Michie (defensive transition), Nicholson (letting his opponent lead him to the ball) and Evans (positioning, in previous weeks). They relate to different things. Turning the ball over doesn't stop people playing their role. Have you thought that maybe selection is tailored to the reviews?

I bet you would...

i checked with the octopus at melbourne aquarium. frawley definitely gorn.

Wold not be surprised if we're throwing a packet at Cameron as this could achieve one of two things. Either we strike gold and he signs, or we increase his value and thereby dislodge another player (Patton or Shiel for example). Either way, that would be a great result for us.

RPFC We don't have any elite players. Nate is good but not a match winner. viney Tyson jkh Salem have potential The rest are good average footballers at best. If Chip can get $800k then we get a plus in the swap stakes. I think we have a long way to go to get a competitive team together.

i dont mind the reverse version ...blue MFC on red. I know Clint Biscuit and I amongst many have advocated this for a long long while. Its red and blue..Im sorry I really just dont thing we ever should play in either WHITE or Royal Blue...both are yuck !!

Well there you go DD36 - you just got the approval of h_h... That's got to bring on some reflection.

JKH is one of the few Melbourne players in the past decade who constantly runs and is always moving to provide an option, that's what I love about him.

We need some X factor and speed Out with the dead wood in with some spark In - JKH, Blease Out Bail, Terlich

i know him personally. Absolute stand up guy. Wasn't a great kick but tried bloody hard. Could have shown a few how to "have a crack" last Saturday, that's for sure.

If JW goes to a team that moves the ball quickly with no hiccups, he'll finish top 10 in the Brownlow.

I think clubs like ours should only have to pay 70% of the cap and then give a further 15% of the cap to us supporters for turning up every week - that seems equitable.

The only new part, and interesting part, of this thread is the comparisons with other teams' full lists against ours. Nicely and clearly shows how many issues are in front of us. We don't just lack current stars, we probably lack potential stars and we definitely lack current mid-level players. Too many of our players are either in the 'time is running out' group or the 'time has run out group', and better sides have far fewer in these groups and more in the 'midfield depth' groups. Blease, Strauss and Tapscott have had 5-6 years and are not even in that mid-level group. It's a sad indictment on where we are at and where we have to go.

My son still has his 48 jumper hanging on the back of his bedroom door. Lots of broken dreams ... perhaps good that kids learn about that as well, but sad all the same. Hope Liam finds some peace.

He could have been anything and seeing those few highlights tonight reminded me of this. EDIT: Glad to hear there are still some Air Jurrah t-shirts floating around. It was pretty cool to see when Moloney had an Air Jurrah logo in his locker!

I've only just finished reading Bruce Hearn McKinnon's book on Liam and would recommend it highly for anyone seeking greater insight into his life and culture. Sadly, I can't see a return to top level footy for Liam but wish him happiness and a peaceful life.

Ignore the negatives rpfc I think it is a good thread and list. To all those who run the thread down. Use your democratic right don't comment on the thread if you think it worthless

Don't be so hard on yourself...

Agree with all you have said! so the rebuild of rebuilding, rebuilds into another Rebuild! Well if that's what it is I want us to go extremely hard at the trade table! Might need to trade a few favs in order to get the mix we need!

yeh man, i got your back bro lol

Grimes is absolute borderline imo if we are to seriously rise. But otherwise agree. And i also knew Satyr would react as he did. Highly amusing /)

You need to read this properly 'Sat'...neither Roughead nor Birchall are elite mids. Roughead could be argued as a rotational mid. So where would you put them? Potential, not good enough or not enough info?

While I generally agree with the concept that average players can become great coaches (you could add Tom Hafey to your list), great players sometimes also make great coaches. No-one will dispute that Leigh Matthews was a great player and he managed to win four Premierships as a coach. Ditto Ron Barassi. On the other I can't imagine Gary Ablett Sr as a coach..."This is how you do it. You run 100 metres in 11 seconds, jump over the pack, twist left, then right, do a blind turn and then kick the goal from 70 metres on the run with the non-preferred. What's so hard about that? And it doesn't mater if you don't know your teammate's name."

world championship wrestling is one kind of fake; Essendon's approach to the ASADA investigation shows a non-sport motivation there, and undermines assumptions on which the naive supporter follows the game; and, if loyalty to community and players is eroded on a large scale by FA (in the players' pursuit of money and disregard for community and loyalty) then what the game has always been built on takes another hit. Taking a battering... Football is changing visibly, showing how it has been changing in the backrooms for a while, and I ask myself do I like it? Am I invested in the way we all used to be? I can't think that I - or maybe many of us - am/are. Somehow it feels like we have become just the punters, the "mark" that a corporatised organisation feeds stuff to, while keeping their eye entirely on the dollar. Disappointing. The thing for me is, the wrestling is fake and we know it. Watch it only for a laugh, if at all. But now we've heard of cricket, soccer, etc being corrupted at high levels with match-fixing; and in whole countries, plus spread throughout cycling, swimming, weightlifting, sprinting, etc - and now Essendon - a constant chemical warfare to stay ahead or legally weasel out of being stopped from winning by means of cheating with drugs. What sport is "clean"? - how pointless has it become to watch in admiration? The ancient Greeks saw nobility and respect for the gods who made us as the over-riding thoughts about success at sport, and I reckon a lot of us have had thinking that was not too different. We just loved seeing prowess and the whole thing coming together and being inspired on the day. I used to love the characteristic humility of Australia's tennis champions. The "whatever it takes" posters, who attack our players and talk of culls, may be able to adapt to the changing (or changed) nature of sport, but others of us are really struggling, and not sure we want to get there.

i dont think it lends to well for fans in general.... Our game was built on community and loyalty and the gradual introduction of money into aussie rules, has slowly changed the game... Its more a marketing business game now... premierships are won off field now, in shady back room deals with hand shakes and bags of cash...I'd be really surprised and shocked, if our clubs wasn't planning for his departure anyway... In the modern game all clubs should be planning for the departure of anyone on their list...

I remember when it came out how bad his degenerative knee condition was that all the doctors and physios were talking about was quality of life after football. That's when it hit home that this wasn't just an injury, it was an issue that he would live with the rest of his life for a relatively short AFL career. I always admired they way he went about it and I reckon with a clean run he could've been quite a handy player for us. I remember there was a time that he was very rarely beaten by a small forward, I'd look at the opposition and think "we've got the small forward covered" all because of Barty.

Very handy player, seemed to be playing the best footy of his career before he was struck down.

I'd like Gary Ablett, Dane Swan, Lance Franklin, Kurt Tippett, dangerfield, swallow (both), Luke breust, Cyril Rioli, Stevie Johnson, Hawkins, Ron Barassi and Norm Smith

Long bow there, dd36.....

^ flat out ridiculous post.

Banned, if they did what has been reported they should be kicked out of the league. I am disgusted that an AFL Club would try this stuff on any think they should get away with it.

Mick Turner is well know for massively overhyping every single prospective draftee to come out of the Geelong Falcons. He's shameless.

About to post the same thing 'Axis', I wouldn't bother with a thing he says or what Brenton Phillips has to say. Every year the greatest player to come out of the Falcons or finest young leader/prospect from SA is coming into the system. They're just looking to keep a good gig. I wonder if he got it right with Gary jnr if he was around then?

i have absolutely loved aspects of this season, but the sting has really gone out of it now. Back to normality.

Like Undeetered, I am equally sceptical about what you are proposing to do with that extra cap money. We will use it for fringe players at Casey. Kids are at Casey and NQR players. Do we pay and play more pros at Casey? Why wouldn't we target players to get paid more that actually play AFL. If you are recruiting kids to play at Casey while they develop - why would you pay them more than they are worth in the market? Overpaying your best players is an unfortunate happenstance when you have a barren list like ours.

I rate Treloar higher than Shiel personally, if it came to a choice, i'd happily take both

As you've touched on, I'm wary of overrating them. I know Fyfe and Mitchell were meant to give an idea of their style, but those 2 are in a league of their own. I'm concerned about the level of quality in this year's draft crop. The kids touted as the real elite picks just don't seem to have enough for mine. I find it interesting to think of where Salem would have been picked if he was in this year's draft crop.

I wouldn't write Toumpas off just yet. We'd still want something of quality of we were to give Jimmy away this early.

I know it's not going to happen and it's obvious why but I really liked what the Storm bloke did, announced last week he had signed a new contract with another club but the rest of this year he was 100% committed to the Storm