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Insight is on in the background and Clint Bartram popped up to talk about his degenerative knee condition and stem cell treatment. I was only half concentrating but really took not when he said his knee was at the point that he couldn't stand up for half an hour without pain and swelling. He indicated that the treatment has improved his comfort and mobility in day to day life but not to a level to return to elite sport. I really liked the way Clint went about his football. He is probably a great example of the sort of 24-28 year old clubman type that our club has really missed. He was rarely beaten, and while many on here bemoan his kicking, I thought he really grew as a player particularly in his last season. I remember his awesome boundary goal v Essendon (I think) in the 2012 season. I also think that the way we have handled players in recent years - Jurrah, Bartram, Clark - is something that us supporters should be very proud to support a club like Melbourne.

i know him personally. Absolute stand up guy. Wasn't a great kick but tried bloody hard. Could have shown a few how to "have a crack" last Saturday, that's for sure.

Toumpas in his 2nd season is stranded in the 2s for now despite promising performances and many want him gone. Tom Mitchell in his 3rd season is stranded in the 2s despite excellent performances and many want to recruit him. I understand the swans are a premiership fancy and it's much harder to push into their side, but there's a heavy dose of hypocrisy here. Toumpas still has a lot to offer going forward.

Couple of weeks agi he was Caseys leading tackler for the game with 6. The week before he also laid 6 tackles.We all know he can kick your just spouting rubbish and excuses to get rid of him so early.

The rumour I have heard, is that it's Kirk, Fremantle have been informed that he's right in the mix and it's probably a good idea to plan accordingly that's coming out of Albury where Kirk comes from. The other part of the rumour, truth or not is that Roosy will sign a three year deal as director of coaching at the end of 2016, apparently he was hesitant to coach incase he got in and hated it but he's found some passion for the club and is emotionally invested in playing a role in getting this club back up to where he feels the oldest club should be. again just rumours I have heard around but if they're true it's exciting

Bernie Vince will have the biggest Mad Monday this club has ever seen!

Absolutely fantastic footballer would be the obvious one Machsy. Did you never see him play?

Dom Tyson changes his name by deed poll to Tom Dyson.

I'm pretty sure Toumpas was near the front of the running during the majority of pre-season. We all know he can kick....but as with many highly rated juniors, they are usually the play makers and accumulators of their teams...which generally means that their defensive habits need a bit of work. Paul Roos is defense personified and Toumpas is in learning mode. He's being taught defensive side and structures of modern AFL footy all the while developing his body. Will he be a star? who know, the jury's still out...but it is way too soon to write him off at this stage. I'd be very disappointed if we were to trade him.

I'll debate what you said. I don't think shooting our players is a good idea.

Jesse Hogan to become the first player in VFL/AFL history to win his club's goalkicking playing only 4 games.

For crying out loud ... Carl Lewis won 9 Olympic gold Medals and 8 world championships in the 100m, 200m and long jump. He attributes a vegan diet to his highest levels of performance at the peak of his career in 1991. That huge actor in The Green Mile, Michael Clarke Duncan, was nearly 200cm and 145 kg and a vegetarian. So much for 'frailty'. Staying lean can actually be a problem for some vegans if they eat too many carbohydrate-rich food sources such as legumes, soy and grains in an effort to get enough protein, because they can cause weight gain. I'm not a vegan, but at least those rabbiting on about 'weakness' could do some dietary research rather than speaking from a position of total ignorance.

Oops, is this the thread for irrelevant posts?

Good to hear the big fella will start main training soon!

You will put any player in the league down as some sort of possibility won't you?

i checked with the octopus at melbourne aquarium. frawley definitely gorn.

demonland wins walkley award for most informative and balanced social media site

And why would they do that deal? Unless you get both to say - I am going home - GWS doesn't want to get younger by doing that trade.

I can't comprehend the stupid loyalty the players had for the club. The club has injected them with substances that may or may not have future effects on their health or their families health. Whether this was agreed to by the players is irrelevant. The use of these peptides were approved by the club. No wonder the players are now taking their own course of action. No matter what the final result is, if you were a player or potential player would you openly Put your health at risk in the hands of a bunch of cheats. How does the AFL deal with this scenario? The club could be delisted in which case we have an extra bye each week or install a new club Will this be the end of Essendon as an AFL club, or will they resurrect themselves under a new name. It's intriguing to say the least.

....and since when does using a pathetic analogy of a 'retarded' child to support an argument constitute an intelligent debate?

surprised with so many posters keen to trade toumpas. too early guys. needs a chance. under roos, he wouldn't have played so much in his first year, if at all. needs time to develop properly. other teams hold on to their kids until they've had a good chance to develop, then they play them after a year or so. obviously not all take that path, but many do. he's also had a tough start to his career with injury.

Nutbean the game was well and truly over at half time. Pretty much any half decent team knows that they will always outscore us relatively easy in the first half of a match if they put their foot down early on and go really hard at our obsessive lateral/backwards possession game in defence and across the middle of the ground when we do occasionally hit targets there. They know we are so poor at finding our way up the ground by foot, with so many clanger turnovers, that once ahead by a decent margin early (say 5 to 6 goals or so) they probably relax a touch in the second half knowing we are a non-threat and at any stage they can turn up the wick again if we do happen to get it under 4 goals or so. That's how easy we are to beat atm. The thing is we might be ok at defending in our back half and to a lessor degree through the middle when we have our "ideal" player set-up and structure (ie., very few key players out injured, like Cross, and most in very good form like Vince, Jones and Tyson). Some of these guys able to push back and help out in defence to rebound (Vince and Tyson were very good at this earlier in the year).However, most teams know they will also win the majority of center clearances against us fairly easily. I don't believe even the best defence in the league would handle the amount of ball that comes into our defensive 50 week after week. The bulk of the game is played in "our defensive half". There's very little overlap style gut running and quick 'play on' from our guys compared to most clubs as they seem unable or unwilling to play forward of their opponent, possibly because they don't have much faith that the next player will more than likely beat his opponent or that the guy who has the ball is likely to get accurate disposals to them for the receive...who knows? So we also don't stretch or tire out our opponents as much as other clubs by making them chase us up the field. We continually play a stop start very slow ball movement style game, giving the opponent a nice easy jog to their next set up/wall up the field or on the mark while we take forever. As you know we often just can't hit a target anyway, resulting in a turnover in the worst places on the ground and easy goals from turnovers again and again. In short we might be fairly good at defending given the number of times the ball comes into our defensive 50, but we are also very easily defended against at the wrong end of the ground (for us), namely through the middle where the walls are built and even down back with weight of numbers as our backs get worn down with the continual entries. We will lkeep getting smashed by anyone outside of the bottom 6 until we can find.... 1. Some new on ball tallent who (collectively with say Jones, Cross, Tyson, Vince) can win more clearances than our opposition on a regular basis (Edit: in future years this should include Viney of course) 2. One or two pacey/agile outside runners who can spread and deliver the ball lace out on a regular basis coming i50 (eg Burgoyne/Pendels types) 3. At least two pacey running players off HB who can also use the ball and hit targets on a dime (eg Shaw/Malceski types) 4. A decent lead up forward who can receive the good work from up the field and kick clutch goals (Buddy/Hawkins types... Hogan maybe ? ). 5. A decent alternative overhead mark as an alternative to the lead up forward so we can go deep if the lead is shut down (Roughhead/Cloke types) 6. A very quick, agile, classy crumber who knows where to get to to take advantage of the spills off the deep forward entries to the overhead target (Cyril/Milne types...JKH maybe?) Can i see us finding the above anytime soon (ie., within the next 5 to 10 years) given the way the AFL has sucked the lessor clubs dry with the new start ups (priority picks etc), the AFL rigged fixture, our pitiful performances in the last decade etc? Well, failing a minor Roos driven miracle, that would be a big fat nope i'm afraid.

Ben Kennedy is too short. If he went to St Kilda they'd set him alight.

Lenny Hayes was and is a leader, stood up when needed and was always cool in times of extreme pressure. Made on field moves as mentioned by Ross Lyon when he left it up to the players to make some changes they felt were right and which didn't waiver to far from the overall plan. Don't see Kirk being a no brainer I think all 3 Ling, Kirk and Hayes all have leadership qualities written all over them. Hayes knows the game plan via Lyon Kirk knows the game plan via Roos Lingy has been around enough and is smart enough to adjust to it quick enough. All 3 could do 2 years under Roos with a transition, but going to be a hard choice

Gotta be Kirk, seems a no brainer based on what Roos said today.

But it isn't up. So why bother mentioning it? By the same measure, we should target Gary Ablett and Buddy Franklin. They're both good players, so we need to be smart, sane, realistic, ruthless!!

I think clubs like ours should only have to pay 70% of the cap and then give a further 15% of the cap to us supporters for turning up every week - that seems equitable.

Like Undeetered, I am equally sceptical about what you are proposing to do with that extra cap money. We will use it for fringe players at Casey. Kids are at Casey and NQR players. Do we pay and play more pros at Casey? Why wouldn't we target players to get paid more that actually play AFL. If you are recruiting kids to play at Casey while they develop - why would you pay them more than they are worth in the market? Overpaying your best players is an unfortunate happenstance when you have a barren list like ours.

I enjoyed the start of the season, but I'm with you now.

Banned, if they did what has been reported they should be kicked out of the league. I am disgusted that an AFL Club would try this stuff on any think they should get away with it.

or a cow with mastitis eh jazza?

James Frawley signs on for 4 more years. Now that's bold.

We trade Viney and pick 2 for Tom Scully and Josh Hunt.

Yes, i would trade him for Dangerfield...but i don't think Adelaide would.

I guess you mean the place. But it would make Demonland much more exciting if you could confirm that you've invented a time machine and you've travelled back in time around 244 years.

I don't think depth is a problem in this draft, just that those projected as the earliest picks just aren't can't-miss blue-chippers. None are in reality, but these guys in this year's crop don't even give the illusion of being that good. So you could very easily pull out a Fyfe at pick 20 this year. Trade down in the draft and get more picks, I say.

We have less talent than other teams but have to reach the salary 'floor' - of course we are going to over pay. This is the least of our concerns. Not having the talent to over pay would be a higher concern, yes?

We would be crazy not to do that deal.

It would explain his form slump if he has received some fairly significant offers, the hardest thing for the Giants is so many of their players are going to increase in value so they need to be careful about handing out huge money I am not against picks 2 & 3 going to the Giants for Cameron and Shiel

up lifting

Another year I am looking forward to the trade period more than the rest of the season.

His mental well being may not be so well after playing a match with this current line up in its present form... Dawesy included. Although saying that, i'm forgetting the quality of the delivery inside 50... amazing stuff indeed. I have pity on any forward trying to perform with our disorganised and horribly skilled mids and half backs atm. I watched one passage over the weekend, i think it might have been out on the full or a free kick forward of the wing to us, kicking to the city end on the northern side. An ideal set up i50 opened up straight after the free with most opposition players running forward of the ball not expecting the turnover. With an open forward line of only Dawesy and Howe (and maybe one other who i can't recall) in open space. Yet as usual, instead of moving/kicking the ball quickly to a one on one Dawes on the lead or maybe deep to Howe for the overhead speckie (both of whom would have had a good chance of out marking their opponent), our player sat behind the mark for what seemed like forever as our mids proceeded to run straight towards the goals (no not out wide or away from the hot zone) and inside 50, filling much of the open spaces, and dragging their direct opponents with them into the same areas....space/time and opportunity lost. By the time we took our kick it was all over red rover and nothing came of our entry. In fact i could be wrong as i was so discusted with this piece of play i have a funny feeling the ball was rebounded out of our forward 50 into the Cats 50 for an easy goal on the rebound! Examples like the above happen far too often to be an accident IMO and we presently don't have one weapon that i can think of (both as a team and individually...ie., speed across the ground, quick accurate ball movement through a press by foot, amazing contested marks up forward, busy skilled crumbers up forward that can kick snap goals, a clearance winning mid field, an amazing outside skillful running team that can deliver accurately by foot or kick long goals from around 50, a tackling machine that will wear the opponent down over say 3 quarters and work their ass off to kick a winning score, a dangerous multi pronged goal kicking forward line etc etc) that will worry the opposition or force them to play accountable footy where they are unable to continually play off and forward/lateral of their opponent (ie., us) on the spread as soon as they get any sniff that they're about to win a contested ball. There is just nothing inspiring at all in this present line up that i can see that will see us become anything other than what we are right now....absolutely horrid. Sure, we might see marginal improvements from certain individuals as the years go by but nothing that will make a big enough difference to see us playing finals footy on a regular basis. The club just needs to keep recruiting and turning over many players each year (at least a dozen or more if possible this year) until we finally fill up the gaping holes, which are unfortunately, all over the park .... with a few exceptions. Even then i just can't see us attracting the sort of caliber player we would need to in order to turn this around. Especially given the AFL's expansion agenda which is sucking the talent away from the poorer Vic clubs like us (yep i include Skully in this....he would be a reasonably handy fill in for Cross right about now and def a better option than Bail/Nicho/Tappy/M Jones long term). Subject to some sort of amazing miracle recruiting coup in the next 2 to 3 years, If Roosy can't turn this around by then (assuming he's still about) ....we are all but buggered.

Roos takes into account the collective wisdom of Demonland and delists 36 players at seasons end.

Grimes hits a target, Howe takes a hangar then hits a target,Bail keeps the ball in the postcode of Melbourne after a disposal and chippa signs with Cleveland.

Hilarious!

Shame we let Tom Gillies go. Could have added him to sweeten the deal.

I think that its time to play Blease, and Tapscott shouldnt get dropped.. I would drop McKenzie, becuas I just don't rate him has been a tagger his whole career and isnt creative enough to win his own ball and spread quick enough from stoppages. I'd give Bail a spell, just doesn't kick enough goals, he has been good, but we don't hit the scoreboard enough. We need FWDs who make half chances goals ie Blease and I would play Howe up Fwd!! B: Jetta Dunn Garland HB: Riley McDonald Grimes C: M.Jones N.Jones Vince HF: Pedersen Frawley Blease/kent F: Watts/tapscott Dawes Howe Ru: Jamar Tyson Viney Int: Tapscott/watts, Terlich, Kent/Blease Sub: JKH Id play JKH as a sub and be rotating Watts and tapscott to keep them both fresh! #thoughts

I wholeheartedly agree R13. we are obviously not privy to Roos' game thinking and he seems less annoyed by what Jack does or doesnt do ( most of the time ) as compared what many other players arent doing. I know I just shake my head a lot watching the footy ( us ) and wonder what was going through the mind of this player or that. Again all I know is really what I see. Often the effort at a contest is less than ordinary from ol' Jack. He might be doing everything else asked of him but I also know that in games you have to become a little inventive. If the mountain wont come etc. Some players just instinctively know how to immerse themselves into proceedings, others just seem like parked cars on the side of the freeway as everyone else wizzes past !!

Yes Ling assistant to George Stone and Kirk under Paul Roos would be great

Tough year to be out of contract. Big Mitch is gone, Frawley will look to cash in elsewhere and I am sure the axe won't miss many uncontracted players. At this stage of the season anyone out of contract that hasn't put pen to paper probably wont be coming back. I can see the Demons being active again during trade season. A player who is not in Roos' plans will be offered at the trade table if under contract, so he can move forward with this list. I get the impression Roos patience is wearing rather thin with parts of our list.