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Hey Jose - you're right - I am a regular reader, but rarely post - do a lot more over at Demonology - just wanted to get something in the press to restore some sense of balance to the outrageous reporting of this issue, and hopefully influence the AFL's considerations One thing I should explain - (rather hastily) hastily wrote and submitted the article in a fit of pique over a month ago - had pretty well forgotten about it - didn't think they were going to publish it - credit to them for doing so, but I'd write something different now, having seen how pathetic the so-called evidence is. Fumbling the ball? Jeez... Cheers A

For those into monster training reports, here's a superb FNQ Demon sized report from Crusty Demon on BF with many thanks. Enjoy: Ok lads. Just arrived home after my first appearance at a Dees training session. Overall, impressed with the skills and fitness of the group as a whole. I'll go through briefly what training they did and then go through individuals and my thoughts. Remember, these are my thoughts on what I saw, others may be of different opinion. It is hard to focus on every player throughout the whole 2 hours. But I feel I had a good grasp on how most went and looked over the 2 hour session. Pre 9.30am I showed up at 9.15 to find Viney and Nicholson already doing kicking drills to each other. Safe to say after watching for 5 mins that Viney's kicking is in a class above Nicholson. Nicho's kicking looks to have improved slightly and obviously is working hard to improve further by extra training. Awesome to see a young kid in Viney getting there early and working on his skills. Body looks incredible for an 18yr old as well. Safe to say we have a good one here. 9.30am The main group arrives and start doing stretches. Toumpas right calf is strapped but moves ok. Looks to be precautionary. Gawn is also there with no strapping anywhere on his leg. He joins in on running a lap with main group after stretches. No sign of Trengove or Garland. I can't see Nelld either. That's not to say he wasn't there, I just didn't see him. Tappscott, Sylvia, Magner, Clark and Stark(I think) looks to be in the rehab group and walked laps. Clark looks good though and did some small kicking and handball drills in the first hour. Most likely easing him back but he looked fit. Main group do some more stretching after a lap before running another half lap, more stretches, then another half lap. Joel Mac and Howe look to be the guys who keep the group upbeat. Both seem well liked amongst the players. Gawn still in main group moving well but once the running drills start he joins the rehab group. Some short sharp running drills start before Rawlings(doesn't look like Neeld is here)addresses the main group. Some handpassing drills begin with Byrnes and Jetta looking good here. Windy conditions and getting hot. Big guys like Sellar and Spencer struggled a little. Clark does the drill off to the side with Leigh Brown. Grimes is in main group and moving well. Davey is growing his hair for those who care about the fashion the players are bringing into 2013. Dunn mustouche looks a thing of the past, clean shaven thank god. Dawes is also in main group with Right knee strapped, but moving ok. 10.00am Kicking drill begins with players kicking to a player 20 metres in front of them(paired up). Toumpas looks an elite kick. Never misses a target and has great hands off the deck. Looks a player. Barry looks really good as well in the kicking drills. First time I've seen him and I was impressed tbh. Skinny but moves well and has a high skill set in all areas. Couch and Pederson sprayed some kicks in windy conditions. Was impressed by Evans as well. Haven't seen him for awhile and was impressed with everything he did today. Clark joins in the kicking drill and looks ok. Main group has a breather and does more stretching. Sylvia walking laps with Stark(I think). Rawlings addresses group again and they break off into 3 groups(Forwards/Mids and Backs). From what I can see, Bail, Blease, Howe, Pederson, Fitzpatrick, Byrnes, Davey, Dawes and Kent go forward. Frawley, TMac, JMac, Strauss, Nicholson, Watts, Dunn, Jetta, Gillies, Davis and Terlich go down back. The rest are midfield including Rodan who looks a good trainer. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Hogan was running laps and doing drills with coaches off to the side of main group. Pretty sure it;s him. He's a big boy for a 17 yr old. A few years in the gym and he will be a monster. The drill has the defence guys running it out of defence finding a midfield target(along each boundary, nothing through the middle) and then the midfielder hits up a leading forward who hits the goals. The guys did this drill quite well. TMac's kicking looks to have improved hitting every target. Terlich looks ready made out of defence. Should play games for us this year. Watts in defence looks quick from boundary. Him and Strauss and to a certain extent Frawley look to be go to guys to take it out of defence. Midfielders worked hard. Viney again impressing in this drill. Jones kicking looks to have gone to another level. Evans looked sharp as well as Rodan. Byrnes looked lively down forward and Davey looked ok also. Pederson hands look strong but sprayed some shots. Dawes hands looked sloppy. I know he had issues with a hand a year or two ago, hopefully not an issue. 10.30am Main group has a breather before starting a pressure drill where Rodan and Frawley show main group how it's done. Toumpas hasn't joined in for last couple of drills and looks to be done for the day. The aboriginal boys look good in this drill. Then a handballing in traffic drill starts where Watts, Jones, Rodan and Barry stand out hitting targets and alluding pressure player. Howe keeping players upbeat and Dawes high fiving players also. Tynan also showed good hands in this drill. Then there's another handballing drill where the player with the ball gets tackled and must release ball and hit a target by hand. Jetta and Evans looked good in this drill as did Jones and Viney. Then players move 30 metres apart and do kicking drills. Big guys struggled with the conditions while Barry stood out for me. Looks a real player. Byrnes also looked good out of the new guys. Watts and Strauss didn't miss a target while Spencer was horrible not hitting a target. Players have a short drinks break before doing a 2 on 2 pressure drill where a player has to allude 2 tacklers and hit a running player with a handpass. Davey looked good in this drill. Looks sharp today. Rawlings definitely taking over group. Neil Craig looking on but not saying much. 11.00am Players break off into respective groups again. Forwards have shots on goal including snaps. Byrnes stood out while Pederson continued to struggle with his kicking. Gawn continues to run laps. Look fit and strong. Stoppage work for the midfield. Royal running them through stoppage work with Viney, Jones, McKenzie and Grimes doing the grunt work getting it out to the running players Barry, Evans, Matt Jones and Taggert who then hits up one of the ruckmen in Spencer and Jamar. McKenzies kicking looks to have slightly improved while Matt Jones looks to have a great kick on him. Should get game time this year. But geez Barry looked good as that running player. Those doubting him might eat there words soon enough. The kid looks like he can play. Rehab group looks to have gone. Hogan still running laps. Obviously trying to get some miles into the legs. Did not do any drills throughout the day with main group. Main group then starts running drills doing 400 metre runs in pairs before doing shuttle runs in groups of 8. Short breather, then does it again. Howe looks fit while the usual good runners stand out in this drill, Jones, Nicho, TMac. Matt Jones looked strong also. Watts, Dunn and Jamar just did laps while Evans and Taggert did not join in running. Either did Dawes who looks like is done for the day but does encourage runners from the sidelines. New players look like they are fitting in really well in main group. Blease endurance running looks to have improved. Did not see him blowing too hard and completed all running drills ok. Dunn looks sore and leaves while main group does some jogging and stretching to finish day. Good signs from Nicho and Dawes who give high fives to all players on the session. Main group leaves however Nath Jones goes up one end with Neil Craig to work on his banana shots on goal. Most seem to go through. A small midfield group stay behind to work on some stoppage drill where Pederson and Spencer taps it to a player who breaks a tackle and runs on. Midfield group were McKenzie, Grimes, Barry, Viney, Evans and Matt Jones. Nath Jones joins group as I was leaving. 11.30am Finish. Overall was really impressed with the group. New kids look good. Viney will add grunt and his skills are fine. Barry looks a player. Quick, elusive and has good skills. Wasn't an extremely tough session, but the players looked sharp and focused. Not sure why Neeld wasn't there, but Rawlings was the one to take over. Better than Royal I suppose. A short word on each player is below for those who want to read more. 1 Hogan, Jesse (new) Wasn't in main group but did laps and some short drills with Leigh Brown. Looks big and strong for his age. 2 Jones, Nathan n Super trainer. Kicking has improved further and looked fit. Could take another step forward in 2013. 4 Watts, Jack Trained well enough. Looks lazy at time, but is just his demeanour. Skills were excellent as usual. Not bigger in size from what I noticed. 5 Toumpas, Jimmy (new) Had his right calf strapped but joined in early on. No running though. His kicking is elite already. 6 Dawes, Chris (new) Hands looked fumbly at times, and had his knee strapped. Didn't do much running, but did most drills ok. 7 Viney, Jack (new) Professional. Training before main group arrived and did all drills really well. The myth about his bad kicking is lies. Kid will be a gun. 8 Frawley, James Didn't take much note of Chip. But from what I saw he looked solid as usual. Looks fit and strong. Big year expected. 9 Trengove, Jack Was a no show. Didn't see him on sidelines anywhere. Still recovering obviously. 10 Byrnes, Shannon (new) Looked real professional. Did everything really well. Accurate kick, quick and a solid trainer. Will play round 1. 11 Clark, Mitchell Joined in early but did no running. Looks fit though. Can't be much longer before he joins main group. 12 Sylvia, Colin Was in rehab group. Ran some laps and disappeared. Looked to be moving ok and in good spirits. 13 McKenzie, Jordie Good trainer. Works hard and looks to have improved his kicking. 14 Dunn, Lynden Did most drills until the last bit of running. Looks set for defence again. Looked sore after session but nothing major. 15 Rodan, David (new) Set for the midfield. Quick hands and great off the deck. Will slot in nicely, most likely as a super sub and bust player. 17 Blease, Sam looked ok to me. Ran well and skills looked nice. looks set for a crumbing forward role from what I saw today. 19 Strauss, James Didn't see much of him, but his kicking stood out. Looks fit and no issues with leg at all. Looks set to be in starting 22 for 2013. 20 Garland, Colin No show. 21 Pederson, Cameron (new) Moves well for a big man. His hands looks strong but his kicking looks like it needs a work. But set for forward/2nd ruck role. 22 Magner, James R * Was in the rehab group. Moved ok though with just running laps. 23 Tynan, Josh * Wore a cap for most of the day. Looked ok without standing out. Good hands off deck and in air. 25 McDonald, Tom Kicking looks to have improved. Runs really well. Quiet out on the field though. 26 Nicholson, Daniel Quick. Up close he's very fast. His kicking still needs work, but should play a lot of games in 20 on todays display. Has some voice out on the ground as well. 27 Gillies, Tom (new) Looks big and strong. Weird seeing someone else in #27. Did all drills though and looked solid enough. 28 Macdonald, Joel Big voice on the field. Nothing special today, but nothing bad either. Will be a solid depth player moving forward next couple of years. 30 Sellar, James Like Joel Mac, nothing special but looked ok. Was in defence group. 31 Grimes, Jack * Did all drills. Looked good too. moved well and stood out in the running drills. Was being used as an in and under stoppage player. 32 Evans, Michael Was very impressed with him today. Moved freely and kicked well. Will play games this year on todays effort. 33 Barry, Dominic (new) Really impressive. Small frame but skills look quality. Looks a player. 34 Kent, Dean (new) Was in the forward group and looked solid enough. 35 Tapscott, Luke Was in rehab group and ran laps. Moved ok though. 36 Davey, Aaron Worked hard all day. Hopefully back to the davey we know and love. Was playing as a small forward 37 Gawn, Max Ran laps most of the day and looked big and strong. Hopefully in the main group soon. 38 Howe, Jeremy Liked among the group. Did all drills well and ran particularly hard. 39 Jetta, Neville Another player I was i 40 Jamar, Mark 41 Davis, Troy 42 Spencer, Jake 43 Taggert, Rory 44 Bail, Rohan 45 Jones, Matt (new) 46 Terlich, Dean (new) 47 Couch, Thomas R 48 Fitzpatrick, Jack 49 Stark, Nathan R (new) Small guy, 50 Clisby, Mitch R (new) Crusty Demon, Yesterday at 2:44 PM #337

I bet you Adrian Hyland reads demonland. That article is basically a compilation of a portion of the more considered posts on the topic on this forum.

Thanks to those who liked the article. As was obvious, a lot of the info came from my regular reading of Demonland and Ology. To those who didn't like it, a lot of what you say, I agree with. I'm not sure where I stand on the amnesty business - 'no case to answer' and an apology for the harassment would be a fairer result, but I'll take anything. With the other articles published today, perhaps there is a change in the atmosphere which can only benefit us. Carrot Top - yes - I agree - wish I had done more of a rant. As I said in another post, I wrote the article in a rush not long after Caro's piece, but the issue had kind of gone off the boil by then (I'm a slow writer - not a journalist's a-hole, alas), so the editor said they'd reconsider it if and when things hotted up. After the latest idiotic revelations (as if we ever needed any inducement to fumble the ball!) , I had started to write a much stronger piece - opening line was: "I barrack for Melbourne and I'm as mad as hell." (Actually, I think my original article was a bit stronger - I had a choice paragraph about Brock and his connection to the Morans, but that seems to have got the chop - probably defamatory) Stopped when I saw they'd published the piece this morning. Nutbeam - if you are in fact my wife, you should be at work. If you are me, then the situation is more critical than I could have imagined. Cheers

Totally agree with most everyone's thoughts. When reading the article I thought I've read all this before. It was by our brother D' Landers. It's actually great to sit down and read it in 5 min. Rather than trawl through several thousand posts including all the sarcastic finger pointing personal arguments with other posters that don't even relate to the topic

I'd respond to this, but you wouldn't listen anyway, and then you'd carry on with your unending tirade of 'I'm-holier-than-thou' rubbish.

Did Dwayne Russell actually compare Jim Stynes to Lance Armstrong? [censored]!

Thanks for the positive feedback, team. Much appreciated and glad you liked it. Good to see it generating a bit of discussion, with some pro Melbourne tanking articles circulating today. Cheers wmth

Sure as hell not IRW!

Whoever you are well done to get at least a different perspective printed.

I liked it, but I didn't like the last line about an "amnesty", as that implies that Melbourne did do something wrong when the rest of the article highlights that they didn't do anything wrong.

Just want to add my two bobs worth.Attended training today. First time at Gosch’s and only second time ever. I will provide some personal observations below but need to explain that my view was frequently obstructed by the hoards of people milling around Ben-Hur for his autograph. The first thing I liked was the preponderance of big bodies. We will no longer be pushed off the ball like wimps. Hogan was running laps ( at a fair pace too). I can’t believe he is only 17. He will be huge and looks like he could play now. Dawes trained with the main group and was moving freely. Another poster noted that he was fumbly but, at this stage, his building fitness is the main concern. I am a big fan of Jake Spencer, so I watched him closely. He is bigger but kept up the pace in running drills. He also hit his targets by foot on the 3 or 4 occasions I saw him kick. It was very interesting to watch him and Jamar contesting marks. Jamar won these contests. It was as if he was saying, “you’re going to have to do better to take my spot kid”. Dom Barry certainly looked silken and reminded me of a young Aaron Davey. Aaron Davey BTW also looked the goods. Max Gawn was running laps and looked to be moving very comfortably. Rhodan looked very fit and dangerous. I would be putting in the “short ones” to avoid running into him. Overall, I was really impressed with what I saw. The simulation type drills particularly. The wind was flukey but the ball movement was confident and accurate. Our skills looked much improved

From this I presume that you believe that Demetriou initiated this whole exercise. If so how do you explain AA's contribution? "It was left to individuals at Melbourne to seek out coffee meetings with retired greats" - can you clarify what you mean here. G Lyon? I can't see D going down with his "vendetta" if it is at all his. He would know that his quote "there is no tanking" would be thrown up again and again and I doubt that D could stomach the thought that he may have errored in making that observation. From my observation if he had have been in the country when McLean made his statement and the sh%t hit the fan that D would have handled it in a very different way and we would have had a very different outcome. It would have been handled differently soley to exorcise himself out of a difficult situation not to protect a failing Club.

I've got it. With Reference to Watts, Viney, Grimes, Fitzy and co. She's got the Jack by AC/DC

People being a little hard on Dawes. We know he has only really just joined training proper, so he will/like anyone feel a little out of touch with the footy for a bit. If Jack Riewoldt was in the same boat im sure tiges fans would be a little worried about him too lol. Neeld and co have seen Dawes play some quality in a quality side at Collingwood and if Neeld had doubts about his ability he would of wanted him. Dawes had quality season in 2010 and 2011 under Malthouse and Neeld, but under Buckley obviously not so and from what i can gather that Buckley isn't aswell liked as Malthouse amongst Pies players!!! Ive got a few keen Pies fans mates and they rather liked Dawes and werent so happy that he left/traded. Time will only tell with Dawes but i hope/sure he will come good and become a quality player again.

Amazing, we finally get some good press and some are still arguing lol

McDonald should be played as key back. I was really disappointed to see him training with the forwards last pre season but I guess that was just a measure of hoe Neeld rated our forwards. He went back and came third in the B and F. We paid significant prices for Clark, Dawes, Hogan and Pedersen forward - we need McDonald down back.

Apologies if this has been covered ( been away) Speaking of "bringing the game into disrepute" - what about the AFL invesigators who leaked info to a journalist : did they not bring the game into disrepute and is this action not what created the furore that caused the disrepute?

No one has actually been charged yet. If they are to be formally charged, it will be after the AFL Commission, at a future meeting, studies the investigator's files and considers Melbourne's response. At the moment, all we really have is the equivalent of a prosecutor's brief going to the DPP. There's a lot of water to pass under the bridge before formal proceedings.

Well done Adrian - bloody good work.

Nah Stuie , it's all about the music . Got any Divine?

The main one is that we kept bleeding into the shark tank. It was amateur hour from go until not long ago. We seem to have a smarter set up running the show these days, but geez we went about things in dumb ways at times. What's done is done, but we need to be a lot smarter about almost everything going forward or we'll keep getting eaten alive over everything.

Imagine 14 banks being robbed by 14 different bank robbers . Only one is identified and caught . The other 13 bank robbers escape identification and are never caught . The authorities have absolutely no idea who the other 13 bank robbers are . The caught and identified bank robber couldn't really claim innocence on the back of the other 13 unsolved robberies . Obviously not . Now, imagine 14 different 'tanking' seasons by 14 various clubs . Imagine if All these tanking seasons could be identified with a bit of investigation . Then imagine that the authorities decided to only investigate one club in one season and completely ignore all 13 other transgressions . 2001 - Saints, Hawks. Eagles *2003 - Dogs, Blues 2004 - Tigers, Hawks, Dogs 2005 - Blues, Pies, Hawks 2007 - Blues, Tigers 2009 - ?????? With the exception of Richmond in 2007, all the above clubs received a priority pick before the 1st round of picks . (Wallace has admitted not making any 'moves' in their round 22 game vs St.Kilda . This game was played on the day before the infamous 'Kreuzer cup' or 'Judd cup') Some big names came with those priority picks including Judd, Ball, Hodge, Cooney, Griffen, Thomas, Roughead, and Murphy . Also, Cotchin, who wasn't a priority pick, but is a top player It could be argued that Judd was tanked for twice - 2001 and 2007 . It's any wonder he's gone a bit haywire on the field with his crazy indiscretions . It could also be argued that all the above 'priority pick seasons' were 'tanking' seasons . It's all there to be investigated . The same sort of tanking 'evidence' of those seasons could be uncovered if each possible season (and team) is given a 6 month investigation . Quite a number of years would be needed for these investigations of course . 13 x 6 months = 6.5 years . Unless the AFL want to 'fast track' everything and bring in some more 'Haddad and Clothier' types . Not forgetting the ensuing court cases that would possibly follow . Edit : The bank robbery analogy is there to highlight that in our case we could point at other indiscretions and say - "What about them? It's transparent, everyone was watching, we know who they are and we know what they did" The threat of highlighting these other 'dodgy' seasons in court is very real and one that the AFL must be acutely aware of . The possibility of other clubs being found to have gone down a similar track as what we have (list management etc) could be our saving grace . The AFL won't want this to go to court . *We received a priority pick in 2003 but we really were rubbish that year

Slanted? Of course it's slanted. It's an opinion. This entire post of yours is slanted! The way Fan wrote what he wrote clearly lent itself to the interpretation I gave it. Your high-horse response was, as is typical for you, OTT and overbearing. Agree with this. Why does 'motivation' matter? If a club decides to take its best players out of a game, and as a result, is less competitive, and the result of that game to them is unimportant, then what does it matter whether the motivation for that indifference is a flag in the current year, or one in a future year? It doesn't. At least, I don't think it should. Put another way - two clubs, with two goals. One, like us in 2009, clearly can't win the flag in the current year; the other clearly can. One club knows that, as a business strategy, it needs to focus on the future to maintain success; the other knows that a flag in the current year is feasible and the best way of promoting and improving its business. Both clubs engage in identical conduct, lessening competitiveness. On your stance, the club with no chance in the current year is guilty of an offence, but the other one is not. I don't think that can be the way things work.

Good to see the turnout this morning, the club must be happy with the support. As for training the reports are pretty much on the mark. A few things I will add are that there seems to be a lot of competition for places this year with a good even balance of players across the board. NAB cup form will have a big say in who makes it into the starting 22 this year particularly for the likes of Jetta, Strauss, Tynan, Taggert, Nicho and a long list of players who have yet to consolidate a place. Neeld showed last year he will pick a player who puts in early by picking Tynan in the first game. There is no doubt about Barry's skill and his running ability and if it translates on match day then we may see a bit of him this year, I hope so. A couple of passes into Dawes in the drills had his eyes light up. He will be a happy man if he gets this sort of service from Barry, Davey, Toumpas and Watts on game day. Interesting to watch big Max and Jesse Hogan kicking on the far side of the ground for a while. Everything was timed, videoed and accounted for, they weren't there to fill in time. They must be itching to get into the main group though. The year that Hogan gets at the club in advance of his peers where he gets to train and play in an AFL environment will pay off big time. It will be great watching him at Casey this year, I wonder if the club will get him a run in the NAB cup like GC did last year. Watching Jack Viney kicking before training with NIcho and he is a very good kick over shorter distance, low, hard and accurate. Like Joel Selwood I think he will be ready to go from game one, he is made for AFL.

That was the largest number of people I've ever seen watch training. I didn't count, but there were at least 100 in attendance. I watched training with "Bitter but Optimistic". He was incognito, but it didn't take too much imagination to appreciate what a fine specimen he'd be in full regalia. I won't go into too much depth, but I thought the standard of their full ground drill in blustery conditions was excellent. The ball didn't hit the ground often, but when it did it was kicked to the advantage of the receiver and easy to run on to. Good to see Evans training. His kicking is the query, but I like what he offers with pace. Matt Jones is a good size and moves well. Terlich has nice footskills. Hogan was running lap after lap at a really good pace. He was standing next to Watts after the session and they were the same height. Dawes trained with the main group. Toumpas had his calf strapped and was in rehab, but he was running OK and kicking the footy with no problems, so I suspect it's a minor niggle. Tapscott didn't train with the main group, nor did Magner and Sylvia. Grimes was back in full training. I didn't see Garland or the coach. It was a pretty light session that finished by repeat sprints over roughly 70 metres. There were three groups - best runners pitted with each other, with Nicholson dominating the best group. It was good to see Viney and Barry both with the best group. Blease dominated the final group. Admittedly he was with the defenders, but it was still nice to see him clearly at the front of each sprint and well ahead of last year's efforts. There were 7 or 8 in each group. Others will have different insights and add more detail, but I have to say that I love the look of Barry. He's definitely the closest player I've seen in looks to Michael Long; if not a tad taller. He's skinny, but wiry and those players are quite often 'sneaky strong'. He has excellent endurance already, did well in the repeat sprints, has great evasive ability, pace, is a really good left foot kick and looks to have a footy brain. It's called class. Morale is good with plenty of voice and encouragement. While having a drink and stretching before the next drill there was constant talk with players urged to keep up their intensity, "don't drop off", etc. We just need that midfield to get going this year. It's most definitely the key.

why do we need another song to play? let the atmosphere build naturally

He's chained to us. If he turns on us to save his skin his name will be Mudd in the coaching world. Ask Libber how being a rat is working out for him.

Yeah CT, you make a good point . Non success on the field is another reason this sort of stuff might happen . With season after season of poor on field returns comes probable sackings and possible infighting . Noses can be put out of joint, grudges are often held, backstabbing can occur and the blame game no doubt starts . Fingers are pointed in every which way and before you know it, leaks can occur . Not sure how you can stop all this by the way . And I'm not specifically talking about our club - that sort of stuff can happen at any club, any time . I have a small concern about Bailey. Not about him per say but his predicament . I really hope we are working with him closely.

This topic, the whole concept, most of the suggestions are nauseating. I'll be arriving after 1/4 time at games this year and the AFL can F right off.

Is that a gay joke? That's about the level I'd expect from you, thinking that calling someone gay is an insult. Grow up dhead.

I've sort of come to terms with the 'why us' bit . I can only put it down to a number of possible explanations . Scapegoat Sacrificial lamb The bully element Easy head to kick They need an example to show others Sheer stupidity (in the sense of where it could all end up - where nobody wins) Bloody mindedness Investigators are incompetent Mike Sheahan's 'pathetic and disgusting' jibe The OTC set up (?) The mob mentality Bandwagon jumpers The gullible roped in by obviously embellished articles in the media Vlad overseas AA out of his depth The perceived need to find us guilty Extreme media bias Caro's vendetta against Schwab and her general one-sided and largely embellished articles about us . Humour not acknowledged (CC) Our role in all this It's like it's a perfect storm . Obviously we have to be in fight back mode. Public support is very important and can't be underestimated .We would love this to totally backfire on the AFL - and it can . A week ago I intimated that this saga might end up in a somewhat unpalatable suspended fine situation but after the events of the past few days (the ridiculous fumbling accusations and the ludicrous 'tanking win' bit) I now believe we should accept nothing more than a finding of 'No charges to answer' .

You do really have to ask why we have been picked out. It's not a matter of feeling insecure or conspiracy theories or anything else, I mean I'm not paranoid by why is everyone picking on me. Have we just been unlucky, we don't seem to have left ourselves any more open than Richmond or Carlton to name a couple where senior people have come out with some statements that would cast some doubt on their actions. Is Brock a more substantial voice than Wallace or Libba, how about Fev. ...and the actions of the other clubs you mentioned have all been dubious in relation to how they got priority and or high draft picks.

The list of dodgy seasons is immense . Even non priority pick years could be brought into question . 2006 - Bryce Gibbs cup Yes rjay, and the Lions of 2011 . Remember that game late in the season when they lost to the Crows after leading by over 20 points upon entering the time on period? They could have only received a priority pick before the 2nd round of picks but at the time that particular pick was up in the air . Fairly sure they qualified for that priority pick with only a total of 4 wins, but the AFL decided not to award it to them One of their senior players made a vague reference about the way they were finishing their season around that time.

If the Hawks had not received a priority pick in 2004 there is a very good chance they wouldn't have picked up Buddy Franklin at all in that seasons National Draft . As it is they received picks 2 (Roughy) and 5(Buddy) . Without a priority pick they would have probably had pick 5 only . How do they win the 2008 flag without Buddy ? They don't . Leigh Matthews described Buddy's year as the best year he'd ever seen from any player . The Hawks lost 12 of their last 14 games that season including 2 losses by 1 point and another loss by 4 points . Wonder if there were instances of '3 minutes of fumbling' in those games ? We've got the videos - all we have to do is look at them . ... Season 2004

Watch out , BH will accuse you of using the "look at what other clubs have been doing" line ? What he fails to acknowledge is that as guilty and deserving of punishment the MFC may be, we are in competition with the other clubs whose infractions have not been subject to a 6 month investigation. That makes the situation different that just whinging "the other speeding driver did not get fined". The AFL either bins our case, or follows up the other investigations or we can justly feel hard done by.

Exactly...when interperating the 2009 games in question all parties must apply 2009 rules to everything, at all times. Makes it much harder to prove anything.. Are the AFL planning on listening to any of Terry Wallaces match day tapes? We do know of one game in particuliar where Terrence was extremely quiet for long periods of time...doing nothing. Because he said so... Listen to that AFL.

It was probably nothing more than a comment between friends and probably should have remained so rather than posting it on here where it should be patently obvious it would create a raft of posts expressing concern. I can only hope Fitz doesn't read these forums.

God I hate the AFL..... They constantly come up with dumb ideas and this one is right up there

My taste in metal is showing through but wouldn't mind a short intro song like below thats a bit eerie and sounds hard. Won't be accessible to a lot of fans I would think but would certainly pump me up pre-game.

have to start referring to you two as B1 and B2 !!!

The intensity of training and the ability of the players to recover quickly and go again is way beyond what we have seen before. I counted 16 players who were not at the club or were not available in 2012 who are now training with us. Evans & Taggert are doing the full set. Big Max is not far off. He is the giant of the club, has filled out and will be a weapon if able to stay fit. Howe lead his group in the 400 metre runs, Byrnes lead his and Frawley just pipped Pederson in the other group. The groups then ran a shuttle with Nicholson coming to the fore, Byrnes also doing well and Davey and Blease big improvers. Of the newbies, I was impressed with the speed and carry of Kent, who trained with the mids along with Dom Barry. By the way, Barry did very well in the 400's and the shuttle After the shuttle the groups then repeated the 400's, followed by another shuttle! The group now has a fantastic fitness base to take into match practice. I will put up some pics with further comments after the cricket!

dunno about us but here's one for the Wanchors

How about nit-picking these so-called journalists rather than nit-piking supporter's posts. Clearly JB was rightly [censored] off by the quality of the 'report' and just expressed his anger in that way. Any journo who ends a story with that quote from Jim about the agony the AFL's policy was causing, yet neglects to include the quote saying Bailey was not told to tank deserves no defence from MFC supporters. Edit: grammar to avoid being nit-picked.

Yes- and what does this say about the NAB cup- where winning is nothing and experimenting and playing youth is everything. The NAB cup is built on "tanking"

Accepting a token penalty means admitting guilt. Are they then going to pursue the other tanking clubs? Unlikely in that scenario. So their integrity remains intact while ours is in tatters. I have real trouble accepting that as an outcome.

So I picked up the paper today, read Jon Pierik's latest piece of drivel, and I actually stopped and re-read one sentence again. And again. And again. And even now, I'm lost for words: "As revealed by Fairfax Media on Tuesday, the round-21 loss to Carlton has also emerged as a focus of investigators, plus losses against Richmond, Sydney and St Kilda and a win over Port Adelaide. It's understood questions have been asked over why they fielded three ruckmen, with Mark Jamar, Paul Johnson and Jake Spencer all playing. Jamar and Spencer were two of four inclusions." Yes, that's right. The AFL is now questioning us for winning. What are they going to say? Why did you make 4 changes to this side? Maybe because we thought it would help us win. Which it did! Seriously. This is a joke. Disagree entirely. We're innocent. We have nothing to settle, and we do not want to settle.

This is a minor note (but lends itself to my belief that journalistic standards have nosedived) but when Pierik places an adjective before news to give the news 'flavour' and 'context' like he did with The 'Lumbering' Paul Johnson he moves away from an article and into an editorial. Back on topic - DC is right. The fact that 'fumbling' is even mentioned is just disappointing and unsettling. Are these jokers actually saying that players tried to lose? I am certain the AFL doesn't want this to go there.

I'm guessing Jon Pierik has been reading BigFooty as there is several flogs on there saying that Jim was orchestrating the whole thing. It's funny also that the main attack dogs are from Richmond and West Coast who should also be in the crosshairs of AFL HQ. On the rotations thing - if I was the coach of a team at the bottom of the ladder with more than a few players out of contract and not certain of a new one, I would give them every chance to prove themselves. If this means having less rotations to provide this opportunity, I would do it every time and would be more than upset if I was accused of 'tanking' by doing it.

See I dont see it that way - the investigators are not the judge and jury - all they can do is present evidence - it is up to the commission to decide after we respond if charges are to be laid and I am thinking that commission has wider considerations than just the MFC. To make this clear I have never advocated that we shouldnt get charged because others have done the same. However the commission realises that if they charge the MFC for a retrospective act of tanking, then this charge must set a benchmark/standard of what constitutes tanking and then the AFL must apply this same standard against other clubs. So Ron Burgundy cant understand why Carlton arent in the crosshairs of the AFL - my thinking is that the commission is worried about an adverse finding against the MFC for the exact reason that the standard has to be applied to other clubs as well. I think that Carlton, WCE,Hawks Collingwood, Richmond, Stkilda and Freo are very much in the minds of the commissioners and the flow on affect of a guilty verdict - for this reason alone I think the AFL will apply the narrowest of narrow definitions to tanking and there will be no case to answer.