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I would be furious. 2 average players for a high pick. That pick is to be used for real special talent only. I could live with 13 for both. No one else wants Dawes and we seem to be treating him like he is Tippett.

This is all about what a club becomes after so many years of lack of success and so much failure. I can recall as a youngster when we were the strongest club in the land, you weren't really concerned about who came in and who went out of the club. We were the champions. We won premiership after premiership and we had an aura of invincibility about us. Imagine a time when you would wake up on Saturday morning and you knew your team was going to win. There was the occasional loss and you took it hard but you knew that next week, you'd win and it would roll on and on and you thought it would be that way forever ... We lost the aura of invincibility on Queens Birthday 1965 when St. Kilda broke our eight game winning streak from the beginning of the season. The club literally fell apart and from that day on, we were searching for new messiahs to lead us out of the football wilderness. I can remember most of them. I recently came across an article written in the Age about a successful recruiting trip that Jim Cardwell made to Tasmania where he signed up a couple of that State's leading schoolboy footballers in July 1965. We had a wealth of new recruits in 1966, the best being Ross Dillon who could have been anything but broke down with a knee injury six games into his career. After a year out of the game the feeling was that he would never reach the heights predicted of him. Soon after, Cardwell announced he'd signed the best schoolboy footballer in the land - a midfielder from Broken Hill named George Lakes. I got to know him briefly when he came down but he never made it and was eventually cleared off to the Swans. Then there was Tassie Medallist Graham Molloy and later John Tilbrook, both of SA and many others along the journey. We got one genuine star in Robbie Flower and a handful of triers until Barassi came and developed the Under 19s with Slug Jordan and introduced the Irish experiment. We were on the right track around 1987 when we recruited three interstaters in Warren Dean and Earl Spalding (WA) and Todd Viney (SA). Together with the young talent coming through like Jimmy and Garry we managed to return to finals football and even made it to the grand final in 1988. But the search continued as the ups and downs came and we never got it perfect. Perhaps we might have if only we lost the Kreuzer Cup in 2007, a result which could have seen us get Cotchin that year and both Watts and Naitanui the following year (we would have been entitled to a first round priority pick in those circumstances). Amazing that we're being investigated while the AFL looks away at what Carlton did then but that's just an aside. It is what it is and we've learned our lessons well. The Daniher and Bailey years are over and it's clear to me that we're no longer taking the recruiting short cuts. No one saviour is going to help us, not even young Jack and that's why I remain ambivalent about the whole pick 3 v pick 26 thing. In the end, it's going to be the total package of our overall recruiting efforts and how we train and develop our players when we get them that will determine the path that our team will travel along in the years to come.

Eddie?

If we got both Viney and Wines, can we call them Grapes? Oh come on, it's better than "Scullgove".

It will finally all be over one way or the other. The bandwidth savings alone will be astronomical. Helleluljah. For the sanity of the vast majority of Demonlanders this time cannot come quick enough. ... perhaps all the other JV threads can then be obliterated and we can focus on new topics like polls of what we should use the remaining picks on or who we should take in the under 17 mini draft.

I think The Jack Viney thread and Jack Viney a Sun? thread got merged into a Demonland super merged extravaganza multi funzone super time thread. Just read all 108 pages, and I think, correct me if I'm wrong here, GC may bid pick 2 on Viney, if they do, we'll have to use pick 3 to draft him. Well worth the 108 page read.

We know that club powerbrokers read this site and occasionally post on it. So, let's send them a message .... DO NOT give up our draft pick gold for B and C graders or you will face a supporter backlash. The mooted Dawes/Wellingham 'super deal' is nothing of the sort for Melbourne and would mark a serious decline in the premiership outlook for the club. The supporters understand the need for an injection of experience, but not at that price. Picks 3 and 4 MUST BE OFF LIMITS unless bona-fide A-grade quality is being offered in return. No compromises.

I'd rather we used pick 13 on a Garlett/Menzel/Stringer than an average footballer like Dawes. And if we offered pick 4 for both pies, my confidence in the club is now zero

Morabito is a great young talent whose been struck down by two knee recos and the injury plagued Hartlett is a better footballer than Wellingham. Besides, every player in the draft beyond pick 4 needs to come into your calculations when assessing the merit of a particular pick. It's not static like you're asserting. Dawes is worth pick 30 at best and Wellingham around pick 20. I'm all for getting some experience, but I don't want the club to be bent over and have the opposition use sandpaper instead of KY.

I have been following his site and Demonology for about 8 years and every year at this time of the year, you can just about script every post word for word; only changing names. I have nothing against people jumping up and down suggesting this is who we should trade for whomever or we have to draft this bloke etc in fact I admire supporters who try to help the club in making difficult decisions. What I do have a problem with however is that nobody gets things right. I haven't a great recollection of draftees names but the names Salopek and Polec immediately come to mind, very much wanted but not got. If we had have taken them this site would be in meltdown now. I never heard a bleat from anyone wanting Rioli, of the Cyril variety that is, but I dare say that if he was in this draft; Jack Viney's name would not have been mentioned and there would be threads saying Hogan who? and who is Toumpas and Whitfield etc. Do posters read the papers and think he sounds good, lets get him, or do they follow the combine to make their decision, or do they look at videos (dangerous thing to do if you play golf) and like what they see from 2 minutes of a players whole career or do they actually go to games and look out for potential players. The funny thing about all this is that on Demonology at the time of the Scully drafting, someone (no I won't mention your name Deers ) posted stats from the u18s carnival that showed Scully's Kicking efficiency at about 70%, so I posted that maybe he is not as good as he is cracked up to be. Well that went down like a lead balloon but in retrospect it wasn't too far off the mark. And I'm just a nobody that lives in Thailand and to be honest I don't have a clue but I have played a lot of footy do look at things objectively. Can't see why people get so worked up about the trade/draft period. What is going to happen is going to happen and there is nothing you or I can do to change it. Is there any one that contributes at this time prepared to tell us of any player that you have pushed in the past who turned out to be a spud? BTW IMO any recruiter that bypasses anyone by the name of Rioli or Motlop had better have a damn good reason.

I also disagree strongly with trading Nathan Jones, the changing of our club colours to lilac and tangerine and adopting Pokemon as our new Mascot.

This reminds me of the time the rumour went round that we intended to give up a first round pick for David Hale. Some laughed, many twisted themselves in knots trying to justify why it would be a good deal. Pick 4 for Dawes and Wellingham would be utter stupidity from our club.

If Mitch Clark played 22 games for the MFC this season, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We'd have won at least 2 more games (St Kilda early in the year, Port in Darwin and Freo at the Dome as the candidates in my mind) and finished above Port and the Dogs. Our draft picks (as they stand at the moment) would be 6 and 7 and it wouldn't even be a question that we'd be taking him early. I'll just be happy when it's done - hopefully for a second rounder!

If we are seriously entertaining this then I give up. Both are average bit part players and not worth #13 let alone #4.

You can also script a post every year just like the one you have just made...

I would be nothing short of furious if we gave a first round pick for Dawes. I would rather forget the whole thing.

"We've got to get our structures right ." (They won't listen to me) "It's all about the process ." (We need to be proper robots) "We need to put some scoreboard pressure on ." (We're getting smashed) "Our key performance indicators are down " (We can't get the ball) "We need to get games into the list" (We need to bring in some experienced talent to replace these no-hoper's)

I'm hoping to post a 10.15am Thank God The Server Stayed Up thread.

Geelong got their flags on the back of stars and those stars have kept them at the pointy end ever since. And those stars have included F/S picks such as Ablett and Scarlett, plus Hawkins. They've also got stars who were top 10 draft picks in Bartel and Selwood. Another of their guns was a former pick 2 in Ottens, who they acquired with two first round draft picks. And yes, they've also drafted well. Where do you think our "stars" are most likely to come from ? I'll give you a tip. One is also a F/S and the others are likely to be sharp end draft picks. Once you get a few stars on your list it's far easier to regenerate and stay in the game. Adelaide stayed in the game for a decade on the back of their stars in Riccuito, McLeod, Goodwin, Hart ...

Three way deal.... Collingwood Lose- Wellingham + Dawes. Gain- pick 13 + WC 2nd rounder West Coast Lose- 2nd rounder + Koby Stevens. Gain- Wellingham. Melbourne Lose- pick 13 Gain- Dawes + Stevens. C'mon Dees get it done!!

what speed is there in having a continuous slow moving rugby style maul with 3/4 of each team within 30m of the ball i'll grant you the intensity but it's all wasted on the maul and trying to stay within 30m of the ball

I have a BRILLIANT idea. Let's read X story from Y journalist in Z paper, assume it's true, and slam the club for mismanaging the situation! There's a reason resigned and re-signed are so similar: So the media can claim a typo when they get it wrong. It's about SELLING PAPERS! It is speculation! Can I suggest we demons have enough to worry about in the real world rather than worrying about hypotheticals? If this happens, then fair enough, we should be critical. But it won't.

Just because its a story in the age doesn't mean it's even close to reality. Neeld has said that a lot of the players & deals we've been linked with are rubbish. Yes Neeld is probably interested in Dawes & Wellingham but I doubt the pick 4 is anywhere close to reality.

This kind of logic gives me the sheets. Star players come from high picks. Yes there's exceptions, but the talent is at the pointy end of the draft, it's that simple. Yes, we've shanked our early picks before, but that doesn't mean we will forever. Spending your early picks on players who are "okay" is consigning yourself to be in the middle of the ladder forever.

Depends on the amount of acid you consume but yeah.Yeah-nah , the boys played really well in the clinches and to come away with the points today was an astounding feeling akin to early expressionism.Our opponenents showed some cubist tendencies (in the square) but we came out on top with our use of light and colour and to have big Johhny up the front putting the polish on everything was just a masterstroke.

Mental that pick 4 nonsense... That would be the death blow for me. Giving pick 4 to one of the strongest clubs for 2 of their excess players, I can't believe we'd even consider it. My hope is that we are playing along with Collingwood to get West Coast to up their offer for Wellingham. I'll be done with this club if they did this deal. 13 for Dawes is even too much, but I'd live with it, just.

Had Dawes and Wellinham been in our side this year what would the difference have been? How many more games would we have won? Not many, if any. Wellingham is a capable second string midfielder and Dawes a moderate second/third tall forward. Both are worth second round picks at best individually. Pick 4 gives us the opportunity to draft a genuine future star - Hogan or a potentially elite midfielder. We may need to wait a couple of years for the choice to bear fruit, but we'd still be shizen next year with Dawes and or Wellingham anyway. I'd rather us take Viney at three, trade 4 for the mini-draft, utilise 13 and offer 26 and the steak knives for Dawes.

One of the things about Viney that impresses me is that, even at under 18 level, where everyone is playing to get themselves drafted, he throws himself into laying a shepherd or creating space for a team mate. This isn't just someone who does the team things because he's told to, this is someone who lives winning. Someone who instinctively plays the game to win. A competitor. Some people learn to be winners. Others just are. I feel a bit like Ben-Hur speaking about this, but for Viney it is true. He's someone who just finds a way. \ I love it.

If the MFC stuff this up I will end a 50 year association, mostly miserable on my behalf,with brief highlights Re:Flower and the Northy years..This kid means more to the MFC then squabbling about a arbitrary position of 1 -10. His Brand to the MFC is as important as a sponsor

For those who didn't know, Fox Footy are replaying the entire season. I've watched every game thus far up to Round 4 and I've kept a very close eye on young Bail. Here's my summation....he is a must keep. Combative, hard at it and he doesn't shirk a contest. Really needs to improve his tackling and (yes) his disposal can be wayward at times. Watching these games, I see passages of improvement where our on ballers get into a contest and put in second, third and fourth contests. This is where Adelaide's improvement came from this year. I think we're on the verge of a couple of very, very good seasons. I know, I'm a masochist.

I must say that a small part of me will lol if Jack Viney turns out to be a dud AFL footballer. But most of me will just cry and become addicted to Valium.

13 for Dawes is overs. Dunn does more damage up forward then Dawes. Considering we gave pick 12 in a much weaker draft for Clark this is way overs.

I haven't given it a tonne of thought, but what I could perhaps stomach in our quest for Dawes is the following scenario: Trade pick 13 and pick 26 (assuming we have to use 3 on Viney) to Collingwood in exchange for Dawes and pick 17. I believe there's a good chance that West Coast will (ultimately) cough up their first round pick (17) for Wellingham and we could get back into the first round by exchanging it with pick 26 in a Dawes trade. I feel pick 13 by itself for Dawes is too much, but bumping pick 26 up 9 places and getting back into the tail end of the first round and back in the top 20 could work.

Would they be the Grapes of Wrath then ?

Range Rover, why didn't you start a poll?

Mark Neeld and Tim Harrington made it very clear last Monday night that they have a premiership plan and the objective this year is to bring in a mix of experienced players and youth. They're not going to give away blue chip draft picks unless they get value.

The 3rd and 4th best young draftees available as ranked by our recruiting staff. No compromises, no deals unless for top-drawer A-grade talent.

Dawes for 26 is reasonable. Wellingham plus Dawes for 14 plus a player like Martin Is reasonable. Anything more in favour of the pies than those scenarios and you start to think about walking away. Steak knives fine but no more.

It sounds to me as if they've missed some of the bigger free agents they'd hoped for, to get much needed experience and attitude into the list. So now I think we are desperate to get the second tier experience in and are thinking of overpaying to do it. This seems now about protecting Neelds coaching group long enough to get some success and supporter support for our current list/culture plans. Don't do it Neeldy and Melbourne. In boxing parlance, there's a time to duck and a time to weave. Get it arse about and you get hurt. We've been on the wrong cycle for around 10 years now, ducking when we should have weaved. The strategy was right but the the people making the decisions were wrong and we were 180 degrees out of cycle. We bootomed in the years we should have been up, draft wise. The Pies had they're recruiting team on song and lucked out to get Thomas and Pendlebury. They got it right. # when you're desperate, and realised you've made many mistakes sometimes the over-correction is deadly... you can change course at the wrong time! Now isn't the time to give up on the early picks in this draft ... We don't have to have Wellingham. Dawes would be handy for a 2nd Rnd pick, or + a player exchange. Pick 3, pick 4 & pick 13 should be kept & used for class. We can take the mature players we can this year,,, & if we don't get the number we wanted this year, & go again next Year. Don't give the Pies Pick 4.

Shouldn't we have some bargaining power here both these players don't want to play at their club anymore - why would we go and pay Collingwood something valuable for them? I would only accept Dawes for virtually nothing and they can pay half his contract for us Woewodin style. Wellingham can G&GF after expressing his lack of interest and disgust at playing for the red and blue.

Pick 4 should be off the table. Unless you are using it to bring in a star which neither of these players are, we need pick 4 to draft top end talent into the club. If you go to Ben-Hur's Blue Sky thread (admittedly a bit has happened since that was posted) you can see that the foundation of a good team is there. We need to build on that. In B-H's example he has included a top forward in Cloke. And that team looks good. Put Dawes in there instead and it's far less inspiring. I believe the club can turn its fortunes around relatively quickly. It will take more than one draft / trade / free agency period though. FWIW when I first saw the list of free agents my initial reaction was meh, I wonder who will be free agents next year. That might be a better time to strike. I expect us to improve next year if only through better fitness, better understanding of the coach's requirements & better understanding of the games plan. Not a quantum leap though. We'll still struggle but we will see improvement. That's ok. I don't subscribe to the sky is falling, club will fold mentality of some. 2013 I believe will be a launch pad for a sustained period of finals appearances. But we can't afford many mistakes & trading pick 4 for a couple of structural role players would be one of those. Paying over the odds will set us back. I'm happy to see mature players brought onto the list - but at the right price. I applaud the pickup of Byrnes because he fills a need and cost us nothing. I hope we draft his replacement as well, a Kennedy or Garlett who can learn from him. I'll applaud the recruitment of Dawes if we get him for his right price - a second round pick and / or a player. But if him coming to the club in any way costs us pick 4 I will fair dinkum spew up. Yes he would benefit our structure but I would rather see what Leigh Williams can offer in the big bodied lead-up role than overpay. Who knows what will be available next year. We don't have to fill all the holes in one go. There's a concern that we can't attract players but who that we've really been after that we've missed. We may not look a great destination at face value but in 12 months I expect us to look quite promising. Mitch Clark came over because he bought into what we were doing. Others will as well, especially if we can show we are on the way back in 2013. Moneyball gets quoted a fair bit but I prefer another baseball movie. If you build it, they will come. We're in the process of building it. I'm optimistic enough to think that if we don't make many farkups along the way, soon the MCG will once again be our Field of Dreams

Good synopsis, I would love to have these two at the Dees both extremely hard at the footy and as Sydney showed you can never have too many inside midfielders especially if they are capable of going forward. Wines straight up reminds me of Martin strong tackler, yearns for the contest but is also capable over head. The only reason why he probably won't go top 3 is because he lacks leg speed but the same was said about Selwood, Black, Mitchell especially as he has good endurance (recorded 14.4 beep test). Recent Grand Finals have all been tight contested battles where the team who has the better contested mids will reign supreme. At the moment Jonesy is the only midfielder who wouldn't be out of place we still need another 2 or 3, Viney and Wines would be a good start.

Offering pick 4 for Wellingham and Dawes is crazy, 13 for the pair would be a good deal for boh parties. Yet again, the Melbourne Football Club seem out of step with reality. Each time you get a bit optimistic about the direction of the club you get a sobering reality dose. I would normally have great difficulty believing a club could push this trade, but maybe we are the new Dockers.

IMO a fairer trade would be pick 13 and Martin for Dawes and wellingham. We obviously fill a void in the midfield and forward line with experienced premiership players Collingwood get a decent ruckman/utility roll type player with plenty of upside could develope into a decent player with the right development programm and a decent first round draft pick. Pretty good result for both clubs I would say but only if both are 110% willing to come play for the dees

Viney and Wines at the Dees next year ? Worth bottling. My only concern is that they're too similar. But if we can address some outside pace it's worthy of serious consideration.

I'd be very pleased with this trade. The whole point of this off season was to bring in hardened AFL bodies capable of playing round 1, 2013. Dawes and Wellingham are a vast improvement on anyone we have currently playing in their respective positions. Keep in mind, pick 4 may be a gun - but it would take at least 3 years for that pick to be making the impact that EITHER Dawes or Wellingham could be making next year. MFC don't have time to waste. Either show improvement next year or supporters will stop caring...

Liam Pickering was the "other bloke" on the show. Pickering was the one who said he would walk from Melbourne to Perth if the Dees did not take JV as FS. Hutchy had nothing positive (suprise suprise) to say about the Dees and basically said we would go further backwards next year cause we have no leaders or senior players. He questioned why we got SB from the Cats and why we got rid of Moloney, Green, Bruce etc blah blah Hutchy was pissing all over the Dees and to my suprise Pickering was defending us and said that Hutchy's ears were painted on when he didn't listen to what he was saying. My opion of Hutchy prior to hearing this was low, now its even lower.

His kicking skills can improve....his hunger for the contest is there....that can't be taught.

Spot on Thousands of humans will be born Thousands will die The ANZ bank will make up their minds on Interest rates. The war in Syria will continue Oh you mean Football

It's not often Brendan Goddard completely loses it. Great season Jordie. You are a true soldier for the team.