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NOPE Ratten in Royal out more like.

I've seen the bit people won't like, still waiting on the logical part...

Statistics, damn lies and warped thinking Hazy. It comes as no surprise that you have difficulty accepting the simple proposition that in order to achieve success in the highly competitive AFL you need a unified club but let's be serious, the two points you use to make your case prove nothing other than that your obsessive hatred of Cam Schwab continues unchecked. Robbie Flower worked his heart out for the MFC, played 272 games over 16 seasons, played in finals on only 1 occasion and achieved zero premierships. By your standards, that probably makes him a failure as a player. That's the sort of thing that passes for logic from your pathetic and jumbled attempt to justify the unjustifiable. ■ In his 21 years at the helm Schwab's Clubs have reached the finals on only 3 occasions and have achieved zero premierships. That is indeed Schwab's record but he was never employed to pull on a jumper and kick goals on the field. A closer examination indicates that in each case he took on clubs that were struggling both on and off the field and, in three out of four instances, those clubs were wracked by in fighting and division before he arrived on the scene so I do thank you for proving my point. • Richmond was a basket case before Schwab arrived. Their list was poor and KB was a failure after four years as a coach. Only one person (Bartlett himself) believes he should not have been given the flick. Jeans stayed for less than 12 months and, contrary to what you claim, he wasn't sacked. He was forced to resign due to ill health. • Melbourne in the wake of the merger debate was a tough gig with a mixed board of pro and anti Joe people that was impossible to work with and ultimately imploded in 2001, well after Schwab left. • Fremantle was a financial basket case. Schwab made it financially viable off the field and it made the finals for the first time during his tenure in 2004 and again in 2006. Most good judges would give him a tick. • We know where Melbourne was at in 2008 when Schwab came onto the scene. Despite his record of overseeing a period of substantial financial growth, it's clear that both he and the board had to contend with difficult circumstances and disruptive elements in the background. As an aside, people like you rightly maintain that the CEO should not interfere in football matters but then argue that he's responsible for everything that happens on the field. I suppose it's his fault Sam Blease broke his leg in the schoolyard, that Max Gawn did a knee in the preseason and Brad Green missed a couple of shots at goal on Sunday? People like your find reasons to dismiss the CEO's role in the substantial off field improvements that occurred on his watch, yet are the first to blame him for the lack of on field success in an area outside the scope of his employment and one which he's not expected to involve himself. Mindboggling! ■ In his 21 seasons as CEO, Schwab has sacked 5 coaches (Bartlett, Jeans, Balme, Connolly, Bailey) As we're seeing at Carlton, most coaches eventually do end up getting the sack usually for lack of success. Four of the CS5 (including Bailey) were at their use by date and they were sacked by their board, not the CEO. The other resigned due for health reasons. Five coaches in 21 years is about the average tenure for AFL coaches these days, so your rubbery treatment of those figures adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. By your criteria, Schwab's predecessors who were appointed by previous administrations must have been quite something. Ray Ellis might not been blessed with a good system for filing the club's overdue tax payment notices but its comforting to know that he never sacked a coach. Perhaps you might want to seek him out and ask him if he wants his old job back? Steve Harris did exactly what other than leave the club in debt when he walked away after a less than inspiring four years highlighted by the sacking of Neale Daniher? Paul McNamee's great idea was to put us further into hock by recruiting a CHF we couldn't afford and who the coach apparently didn't want. No worries about the CEO interfering on football matters there Hazy! And he never sacked a coach either. And you want to talk about own goals? Go figure?

If only we took Ben Hudson...

My old schooldays and MFC mate Ray is now fighting his biggest fight at the Alfred Hospital. In childhood, we would slip off from Springvale Under 12's football games and catch the train to Richmond to see our beloved Demons play. Saturday nights we would go play pool at Rockys, or kick the football down at the park. They were the days. Hang in there mate, I am coming up to Melbourne tomorrow night to see you. Love from BushDemon.

Brent. Show him the respect of getting his name right...

Sad reflection on the culture of our football club that Brent gets treated like this on Demonland. Some of you should be ashamed of your comments - talk about eat your own. Your opinions are savage and uncalled for in a public forum. Only 12-24 months ago he was our poster boy, our spokesman our heart & soul. Respect and loyalty is a two way street - the wider AFL community is watching you. However, this is not to say Brents future is 100% with us, maybe his time with us is coming to an end. But surely, surely he deserves OUR respect and loyalty as Demonlanders till the end.

Didn't we beat Freo there in rd 11 2004, in the wet. Can recall Vardy going nuts in the last qtr.

You're right Tim but there's a time and a place where this should be done. What I and many others object to is the hostile and divisive way in which the campaign against the Board and Cameron Schwab in particular has been conducted. Ultimately, that approach is counterproductive and causes substantial harm to the club's core objectives which are to develop a team capable of winning a premiership.

Im not worried about the club if its only these stats thats worrying some. Those of you that play golf might get this. There may be other parallels but ill use golf here. Its possible to play golf without a lesson. Very few will get beyond the novice following this path. The odd few are naturals. Occasionally someone's a prodigy. Its rare. You invariably need lessons and as you progress the nature of those lessons becomes more and more specific.. Anyone;'s whos walked a golf course can tell you theres hundreds of diferent swings out there. ....and very FEW of them any real good !! lol But there are a lot of 'workable' swings which we hacks either yearn to better or compensate for. Most of us compensate. In doiing this we acknowledge we effectively limit our potential because we have a self imposed/accepted ceilinig. We arent doign it quite right but the ball does invariably leave the Tee and sometimes remains on the fairway and we make plodding progress around the course. We return to the clubhouse with a score. Its ok, nothing fancy or record threatening but weve survived another round. We did Ok and thats about it, thats all its ever going to be UNLESS.... UNLESS you relearn how to hit the ball properly and how to set up your game to best advantage. if you decide on this path 9 times out of 10 the first thing a decent golf professional will start to do is 'deconstruct" your swing. Inveitably its full of errors. You go back to basics. Its hard. Youve done it wrong for so long its like its prt of you, its what you do..but its wrong. You have to learn how to swing a club again. Those first couplel of thousand balls you smack in practice will go everywhere, even places you thought it impossible to hit a golf ball, places you couldnt hit for a bet !!. But they fly and the fly indeterminably for ages.....UNTIL UNTIL you click again. Until the new swing becomes the familiar way, until it becomes part of you , just lik the old bad way used to be. Now , however you have real potential for growth as you can hit the ball further, ( more often than not ) it starts to actually go where you want it to, not just directed it to. The positioning becomes more advantageous. . Strangely enough you end up hitting it less and less each game. You do come to a wal leventually , the limit of your abiulity but when you look back to where you came from you hardly recognise yourself. Strangely your playing partners have th esame difficulty !!! lol But all this takes work and understanding and at least for social golf a little bit of ability. The lesson here was you nearly always go backwards,( sidewards, all over the place really ) until you start to go forwardfs again. When you do start going forwards though the improvement builds on itself because al lthe fundamentals are now essentially correct. This Is the Melbourne Footbal Club. We hacked wins here and there for years with no real consistency to it nor the ability to go beyond a certain level for quite simply we were doing a whole lot wrong. Neeld and his FD are re-teaching the players the game. it will take time. There will be "going backwards" . Weve seen this already. As the lessons are learnt and practiced and the new skills honed w will start to move forward and in a real, meaningful and perpetual manner. We can not succeed to the ultimat prize without the tools and understanding to do so. Im not worried, in fact im quite excited. Go Dees

Eddie is quite right to ask how the hell Carlscum will afford Cloke. Everyone wants to know how they get away with dodgy "ambassadorial " roles. Previously that dog was left to sleep, but now Eddie is [censored] off. This will be fun In the meantime everyones looking over there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

What's professional about sacking a coach after one year? You should go back to the very article you linked to, which puts forward the very opposite proposition to what you are, i.e. "Geelong and Collingwood were rewarded for their faith in trying times. Kernahan should have stood by his man." Because in case we forget: "Kevin Sheedy's last 15 years as a senior coach netted one flag. For Malthouse it's been one flag in 17 years." As your man who knows his footy Robert Walls notes: "There's no coaching messiah." Stop looking for one.

Here it is... An all-round impressive lad. Let's hope that the likes of Clark are a sign of things to come at the MFC.

there u go RR...all about you....... the views certainly outweigh the replies, but there are only a few of us on this board willing to take you on and try and outlast you, a hard task indeed It proves nothing, apart from maybe in 10 years time when Jack Watts has had a long and successful career at MFC you can begrudgingly admit that he was a good no 1 pick (which is only a number and recruiters are looking at 17-18yr old who can develop or not in a thousand ways, dependent on injury, the playing list at the club they are at, the coaches, outside influences etc I reckon Cox has probably go another year in him, so when NikNat takes over as the No1 at the Weagles that is when I will start to look at whether he is the Messiah, a great player, a good ruckman etc etc......until now it is left to Bruce McAvenny to ejaculate all over the commentary desk everytime NikNat goes near the ball As I said before with the media the way it is now, if you could get that it is trendy to wear dogshit on a chain to trend on twitter or faceblook or other and then the media pick it up, there will be thousands wearing it within a week......the same with NikNat so it must be true....except for the ones, and I include myself, who can see past the hype.....and look at this kicking efficiencey, goal assists, etc etc....and see he is not the Messiah at the moment

Tim, I'm the first to admit that unlike Hazy I have very little interest in club politics. Watching, reading about, and listening to footy content is far more my go. So in that regard I readily admit that Hazy has an advantage. But when I look at some of the basics, such as the club being debt free for the first time since 1981, and listen to McLardy sing the praises of the current CEO, I find myself taking umbrage at a character that incessantly tries to pot the current administration when by virtually any measure they've succeeded where others have failed. And how does Hazy know what credit Schwab should, or shouldn't receive for some of these successes ? How would you know if you don't work at the club ? Do you doubt that if our membership was down, or that our sponsorship was down, or that we hadn't made any inroads on our debt that Hazy would be sheeting home the blame to Schwab ? If so, shouldn't the reverse apply ?

Yes clearances are important but the difference between the clearances the top teams get compared to say a Melbourne clearance is that they use handballs to get it to outside leg speed rather than a quick kick out of congestion. On top of that Melbourne already has Jones, Gysberts, Trengove, Mckenzie, Magner as ball winners yet they normally just slam it on the boot rather than giving it to somebody running by. Also the main source of scoring these days are from turnovers rather than clearances. Which is through fitness and leg speed enabling the extra link up man for the one over the top, something North does extremely well juxtaposed by Melbourne who only ever seem to go long down the line to a contest.

isnt it nice that the media has a new focus !!

hell thats been me for the last...oh dont know... a long long time lolActually it all Ive really been looking forward too this year. I knew the season proper would be painful. ..But theyre grwoing pains as such. Things are getting better its just theres little outward manifestation of this. That I hope will show in season 2013. This season been embryonic. I wont particulalry cruel any of the previous treade/draftings of the last say half dozen years but i seriously question whether the club had a good plan to work to. If you design a strategy ( thats rubbish ) an follow it then you are at least true to its cause if flawed in its makeup. This is what I sense happened. They though X and sought X. We now realise that X was at least 75% wrong and we actually need Y. Y? because we do Given 5 mins to work with ( figurately ) Neeld and Co showed more insight and relevance to our needs , let alone ability to achieve, than the FD had for quite some while. Given theyve had a good yea rto plan ths next phase of taent attack and armed with what by all accounts is a fair dinkum wallet I fervently hope there will be some clever and impacting enlistments come this EOS silly circus. Its like we were just mucking around before, and now we're serious.

A guy called Norman Smith had an absolutely awful first two years, 1952 and 1953 - if we had a Demonland back then I guess many would be labeling him a dud and calling for his immediate dismissal!!! As they say in the classics -- the rest is history.

RR i promise this will be my last bite at this spectacular troll thread. Why won't you say who you believe we should pick at 3 or 4? I mean you say we should pick the best available. No exceptions. Seriously are you for real? If so name who the best available is at 3 and 4 (using my hypothetical scenario of Viney going second round and Whitfield number 1). Can't do it? I'm not surprised as it is difficult to say with any confidence who would be the best selection at number 1, little lone 3 or 4. If i recall correctly the 'recruiting fraternity' were split on who should have been number 1 that year, so by your logic those that had Watts at number 1 were wrong. Perhaps the same experts had Scully as the universal pick at number 1 (and trenners at number 2 for that matter). Judd went number 3, Franklin number 5 etc etc. History would suggest the experts may (and i stress may) have got it wrong in those years - history may tell another tale. Indeed i would contend that of the 25 drafts held stretching back to 1986 the only number 1 pick that could be considered to have become the best player of his draft is Riewoldt - and even that is arguable. By that logic it is unlikely that Whitfield will be the best player of this draft, despite being the overwhelming favourite to be taken number 1. My point is the draft is a lottery and despite the enormous resources poured into recruiting, high draft picks give no guarantee that a promising teenager will turn out to be a good player. So whilst errors are easy to spot (though not until the end of careers) making a call between two gifted juniors is obviously near impossible so a hindsight argument about Natanui and Watts that is supposed to help inform who we take this year is just so stupid it borders on lunacy. Don't agree? Then i ask again RR who should we take with picks 3 and 4? Go on, put your money where your considerable virtual mouth is

I don't think we got the "wrong" coach for where the club was at a year ago and for what needed to be done to a real basket case. This has sure been a horrible year in terms of games won, but there's more to it than that. If MM does take over the Blues it is quite possible they will do very well almost immediately. But their window is fast closing where ours should be opening. We had a kindergarten teacher in Bailey who stayed 2 years too long. Now we have a primary school teacher - just what we need - as we learn how to get into the big game. The test will come in about 2 years time when our coach will need to deliver BIG time. MM took 7 years with the Maggies. He would have needed the same with us - at least. Would he have been prepared to do all those hard things Neeld is prepared to do ? Would he have been so honest about why Moloney is not adjusting ? Would he have been open enough to say so many other things which have needed to be said for so many years - but haven't ? I have a feeling we would not have.

as i said in the other thread why the hell would we waste to prime draft picks on skinny kids who we have to wait for another year! we need players asap like toumpas or wines who can step in straight away. i know the club rates toumpas pretty highly so i hope they dont part those picksd away!

Josh Kelly is a jet I would prefer him over Martin, outsider who can get his own ball, runs all day and uses it extremely well. Is very skinny but plays a lot like Stephen Hill has that pace that we desperately need

I caught up with an old mentor from my Carey Grammar days today. We spoke at length about school footy and in particular young Jack. What I loved to hear was that he indeed went out of his way to get under Wojcinski's grill. What jockey-sized schoolboy tries to rough up a disgruntled 31-year-old Geelong Cat and (psychologically) succeeds? If he falls to a second round pick then I'll be thrilled for the FD. Having said that I'll be equally as happy if he is taken at pick 3. "Culture changer" is an apt description of Jack. But he can't do it alone so that's where we need to get 3 and / or 4 + 13 right.

thats right, broaden the discussion. the discussion point was just the reason expressed for the fund raiser that was the molehill as you well know as you also know this is an annual fundraiser by the foundation heroes. they don't even need an excuse/reason they just do it to avoid being guilty of the same hyperbole that's as much as i'll say no doubt you will go on ad infinitum, be my guest I won't be reading

You are 100% our demonland peanut.

McLardy-Schwab-Neeld are welded together - whether they're the 3 musketeers, the 3 wise monkeys or the 3 stooges only time will tell.

Brett Maloney?

From the Casey local paper: Lovett was unsure of the make-up of the Scorpions' line-up. But he did confirm highly rated youngster Jack Viney will return after serving a one-week suspension. "The finals exposure will give him some experience for next year."

I think the game has changed and the role he played is not longer available. Sad but sometimes players get left behind. This club has to take hard decisions or we will remain at the bottom. I actually think Moloney wants to move on so there probably won't be a decision for the MFc to make. I also think he has over time given his all for the MFC. He deserves a chance somewhere else if that is his wish. Good luck BM you gave the MFC your best shot

Why not? Seems to me the only reason he left in the first place was because his beloved Blues wanted him back and offered him a job. Now that they have shown him the door, and he has stated he wants to get another coaching gig, I reckon he could do worse that join Neeld's coaching panel...! I, for one, would love to have him back.

This is one thing that really annoys me... without Schwab at the helm managing the debt demolition, the chances are that the whole thing would have collapsed in a heap... the supporters put up the dollars, yes, but to manage a debt such as the club had and to encourage the supporters to contribute to the extent that they did, needed a very astute mind at the helm. Do you perhaps consider organisations such as World Vision to be pointless because it is the public who donate funds to help the world's poor and starving? Is it really as simple as that? The other thing that really irritates me are those critics of Schwab's sponsorship deals who will blame him for the EnergyWatch debacle and at the same time, cite the fact that other sponsorship deals (Kaspersky for example) were the result of supporters going in to bat for the club. Too many forget that even though a supporter in an organisation may bring the possibility to a director's attention, a company such as Kaspersky has to be convinced of the viability and size of such a sponsorship deal, and it is entirely down to Schwab to do that; sure it didn't work out as well as it could have, but despite losing both EnergyWatch (through no fault of his own) and Kaspersky (for reasons no one here is entirely clear on), he followed up, managing to find us two good sponsorship deals at a very difficult time in WebJet and Opel. The fact that one of these has taken up the option to enter a second year of sponsorship, speaks volumes for Schwab and might possibly lend a lie to the reasons some here were saying resulted in Kaspersky opting out.

you know , just for a second i thought you were serious . Love your satire .

Schwab didn't sack Bailey, as has already been pointed out and he didn't sack Jeans, which you've asserted. This from the Richmond Football Club website: " 1992 A Jeans resigned as Senior Coach due to ill health. J Northey, dual Richmond Premiership Player appointed Coach for season 1993." Why do you make things up ? I find your belittling of the debt reduction of $5mil weak. The interest bill on that debt was crippling and prevented football department spend, which is paramount to improve and remain competitive; and where previous administrations couldn't rid themselves of this anchor the current one did. The fact they were able to unify the club was a major achievement, especially when there are divisive figures around the club, such as your goodself. Gardner's Board couldn't fathom how the debt could be removed. It was a major achievement by the incumbents despite your sneering. Also, the reunification with the MCC has been a major achievement as well as the far better stadium deal. Chris Connolly has been the major driver of Casey, and yes, he was a Gardner appointment. Well done on that Paul. Some facts: Membership stronger Stadium deals better Sponsorship greater No debt $6mil net asset position The incumbent Board, despite some mistakes, is clearly a far better performed Board than the one it replaced. Thanks Jimmy, Don, et al, and a special thanks to Cameron for overseeing a major turn around in our off-field fortunes. We all want on-field success and hopefully we have a great summer with an injection of some much needed talent.

Monfries,,,,,, Chappy! get me Scotland & Chappy, 2 Years each,,, on BIG $$$$$... They'll add some tough love to us & the opposition, & teach our kids the correct ways. add a couple of mid 20's aged players traded in to our list & IMO we'll be better balanced.

I'm very happy the big eye of Eddie is fixed on Carlton and their payment methods. Ever since the AFL wouldn't let us do a Judd type deal with scully I've been ticked off that what is good for one isn't for another.

Look like I'm the video uploader in this thread Found the insider interview with Neeld

Illness puts things in perspective. Good luck Ray.

How disappointing is it, that I am looking forward to the trading and drafting, more than I looked forward to about the last 80% of this season?

One's just been hired, the other's just been fired... How's that logic?!

... I just don't have the patience anymore. Dumb (coy) title, dumb thread. And just when I thought it couldn't get any worse around here ...

In almost every year since the 2000 draft it could be argued that each number 1 pick wouldn't go number one if chosen again. Example Hodge at 1, judd at 3, Bartel at 7? now would most likely be Judd, Bartel then Hodge. Although in nearly every case, the number 1 pick in that year would still be a top 5-10 pick. My point is that if Watts doesn't live up to a number 1 pick at the end of his career but lives up to a top 5 pick then I am happy. Nic Nat is a gun but lets judge them at the end of their careers and after BOTH players have played in GOOD sides.

I have a 3 legged cat, he's a freak. Should we have recruited him? So what if Jack plays a different role to what we initially thought he would. Not a problem to me.

Sounds like the write up on Cale morton as a under 18. No skinny kids for me. Hogan is the beast we are after.

A drop that is longer than the rope.

1989 called it. Its wants its football knowledge back. Do you still yell "kick the bloody thing" Fence?

The most stupid post I have read this year, congrats!

Just when I thought we were running out of players to bag, up comes Soidee with McKenzie; perhaps we could start a thread bagging Clark for his less than stellar second half of the season, or Jones for constantly falling one or two short of the 30 possessions per game mark.

I just want to share my experience; we have been going to the footy together since he was 18months old but this year my 8 year old has really latched onto footy and through indoctrination has become died in the wool Demon. At 3/4 time I asked him if he wanted to head off home (I don't want to totally put him off the game). His immediate response was "no Dad, we have to stay and support our team" Naturally I took quite a deal of comfort from this. Hopefully we won't have that quandry too often in the future. He did admit to me later that the day we played the Eagles and got flogged by 100 points he felt a bit embarrased to support the team. It is tough supporting our club at any age. Go Dees!

Tom Hawkins gives me hope for Watts.