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Syliva and Moloney are absolutely killing us. I take no delight in potting players but these guys simply don't work hard enough. If you're unable to acknowledge how two (supposedly senior) players not working defensively can destroy a team then you've never been involved with a footy club. The core founding principle that all footy teams should have as the basis is the notion that every single player works their backside off when you have the footy to provide options, shepherds or to draw away opposition, then work hard the other way when the the opposition gets it placing unrelenting pressure on the ball carrier and shutting down options up the field and then finally to fly in low and hard when the ball is up for grabs. Moloney and Sylvia are 'B' grade players when we've got the footy and 'D' grade players in the other two stages of a game. Re-visit the interview with Sam Blease post game. It's simple stuff he is being encouraged to do - work harder when you don't have the ball and follow the team rules. When two of his senior players regularly fail to set the example, what hope do youngsters like Blease have of developing into the well-rounded, two-way footballers we need to take the club forward?

There is no way GWS wins this week. We want to win, and they don't. And Freo will take care of Richmond.

I think it's a good thread and deserving of discussion. Beamer appears to have thrown in the towel, a sad state of affairs. It's also interesting that the two players who finished top in our B&F can't get a contract offer despite being free agents.

I also thought it wasn't a bad game from us. In the first we were up in contested possessions and inside 50's. Our lack of option in outr forward line was the killer - and so frustrating to watch. Very difficult for a team that keeps throwing the ball into their forward half only to watch it rebound time and time again not to begin to struggle. The Saints third quarter was predictable in that sense. That's one of the biggest problems of having no forward line to speak off - the rebound so often becomes a scoring threat and puts huge pressure on the back line. But our field kicking was ok and is getting better. A couple of howlers but less that earlier in the year. Jetta showed with that one act of bravery why Neeld rates him. I bet that vision will be on high rotation in the review. Our back half held up well until that third quarter. We showed terrific application not to get blown away. The other thing i really liked was that through out the game, as some have noted, we were taking some risks with ball movement and doing quite a lot of switching. Quite aggressive really. To me this is a glimpse of what we can expect next year and shows that Neeld is slowly revealing his plan. He has been adamant all along that before adding flair the defensive aspect needs to become second nature. In his robbo interviews over last 5-6 weeks he has noted he has been pretty happy with our pressure and contested possession; so i think we are getting there. Even if Saints dropped off in intensity we still managed to kick 8 goals in that last quarter, which by any measure is impressive - particularly with a forward line missing most of its key players. It shows that we are not simply developing a defensive mind set. This subltle change is something the Neeld knockers should take note of before they start banging on about no development and a boring limited game plan.

AFL tick of approval

Is that an offer? I'll throw in my sister and a couple of 'project player' nephews too.

It says on your profile that you joined this year, Jose. So was that when you were e25 or Artie Bucco?

As long as I see the Bombers and Blues miss out on the 8 I'm happy.

Dean Bailey has a lot to answer for. The players loved him because he molly coddled them and they never had to work hard enough on their fitness or the defensive aspects of modern AFL football.

He does make some valid points. However, pointing out poor decisions at the MFC is kind of like shooting fish in a barrel. Does Melbourne have a poor culture because of tanking? I doubt it. I'd say it's more because of bad leadership & the failure to recruit leaders. Recruiting has been key in Melbourne's demise. Scott Thompson, Luke Molan, Daniel Bell, Colin Sylvia, Matthew Bate, Nathan Jones, James Frawley, Cale Morton, Jack Watts, Tom Scully, Lucas Cook - all of our first pick, first rounders this century. Jones & Frawley aside, has there been a pick that hasn't been disappointing, disastrous or not bitten us in the arse? Give us hungry footballers in Sam Mitchell, Sam Fisher, Cyril Rioli, Michael Hurley, Dustin Martin, Jack Darling & that goes a long way to solving the talent & culture problem. Geelong have been great at recruiting talent & building culture. A little luck goes a long way though, they've gained Gary Ablett, Matthew Scarlett, Tom Hawkins & Mark Blake through the father-son rule, all who've been pivotal in premierships (Blake 09 only). In the same time period Melbourne got Chris Johnson. A bit of financial & political stability goes a long way. Melbourne has a set of unique challenges in that respect which should be kept in mind before pushing the line "Club Y did this, Club Z does that, why can't the MFC?" Benchmarking has its place but the best clubs are successful because they can find a cutting edge, a competitive advantage or adapt to their surrounds. To my mind Melbourne has too often been a follower in that respect. The reasoning behind many of the decisions made by Melbourne since Daniher finished has been sound, the execution pox. The cultural problems of today stem from a lack of leadership & are compounded by the failure to recruit leaders. Schwarz is more than entitled to his opinion & should be commended for the way he has turned his life around. However, The cultural problems of today would be better if former players & leaders had left a legacy of professionalism, dedication to club & cause. Not a legacy of getting on the [censored], the punt, hanging out with gangland figures & introducing that lifestyle to young, impressionable team mates.

Can't you just PM the cheap shots - really annoying to read straight insults when trying to understand what happened in a game played 9000 km away from me.

You're

i know that we are actually intrested in koby stevens and will make a play for him.

Beamer has been a loyal servant and a good clubman. That said, he now plays rugby. Get ball, tuck under arm, take two steps, get tackled, try to break tackle, fail and fall to ground, free kick to opposition. We have no room in our side for a rugby player. Sad but true. One other talent, constantly pointing out to team mates where to go. That talent is not highly sought in rugby players.

Hang on ... is this the same player who shopped himself out to rival clubs when we were sunk deep in the mire earlier in the season? I think it's a topic well worth discussion given Moloney is out of contract and has basically dished up donuts for the entire season. You call it 'bashing'. A lot of others would say it's calling a spade a spade.

Love this time of year Sadly it's been more exciting then the footy!!

Brought up to hate Collingwood, learned through my own experience to hate "Essadun"

Obviously my opinion about him being gone but I am definitely in the trade Sylvia camp. He has some currency outside the club. As for telling him to do the things you suggest he has been told 1000 times. He is not the sharpest tool in the shed our Col. His B&F finishes tell you exactly what the club think of him. 8 years and not once inside the top 5. A disgrace for someone of his talent.

I think Jake has improved with every game played this time round. Another three games to the end of 2012. IMO If he keeps improving then a contract for 2013 looks likely. There are far worse at the MFC than him.

Recruiting can be blamed but development is at least as important. Look at a comparison between Travis Johnston and Dale Thomas. Both were high draft picks both labelled lazy taking shortcuts both had sublime skills. Johnston never reached the heights he could have eventually being traded and then delisted. Thomas has developed into a gut running player still with great skills and more importantly with a team ethic I would put forward if Trapper had been at Collingwood he may have reached his potential and Thomas at Melbourne may not have. BTW our female cat ,named by my daughter, would now be called Daisy rather than Travis I think that the club is now putting a lot more into development of the individual and less emphasis on picking up a potential champion and hoping that he will develop . This direction pleases me more than the other.

Tom McDonald did the same.

The silver lining actually is lead from which you get poisoned

Disagree with the junior point. How many games has he played this year, and how effective has he been? And that's after a year's rest to get his body right. Many forget the games he missed due to injury in his last season at the dees, and the prescient example of Brad Johnson running around that year on one leg, having overstayed his welcome in an effort for one last crack at finals. It was the right decision, handled poorly. The Cam Bruce departure was after the fact, and had he been honest with the club earlier in the piece, we may have found room for Junior. But at the time, it was still the correct decision, as unsavoury as it was. So many whinge about not having the balls to make the hard decisions...

because beamer had exceeded his pointing quota

Yesterday was one of the worst games of football I've seen. Not only were both teams poor (and we weren't just poor because we're playing a B-grade side, we were also very poor at executing the basics that have no correlation with talent), so was the umpiring. However, I'm glad someone found enough positives to start a celebratory thread.

You missed the point of the thread TA I'll repeat it for you. Against the Aints, our REGULAR jumper would have been LESS a clash than our CLASH strip i.e. NO need for a clash strip in this game In fact I think some of the turnovers on both sides were due to the clash strip Clear?

His work rate and lack of effort should not be tolerated any longer.

This should be our main priority at the moment. Then sign Rivers.

Ironically it is the current attitude being directed at Cook that Spencer copped for his entire career up until this point in time. It has only taken him until he is close to 24 to get the chance again and take it, funny what happens when you give young KPP time. Watts is another example, even Frawley of players who turned it around after 2-3 season.

Agree with a lot of your assessments AdamF. Sprinkling was probably not the right word to use. 'Heavy dose' would be more apt. Aren't we lucky we'll have the opportunity to do that in a couple of months time. Will be the biggest draft and trading period in the club's history. If we can land a couple of quality 22 - 24yo midfielders and 2 bluechip young draftees to your midfield, we can go a long way to solving these issues. Do disagree though that it was only St Kilda taking their foot off the pedal that allowed us that solid last quarter effort, though. We had a seriously B-grade team out there yesterday and they responded well when Neeld asked for more commitment. A really positive sign.

Forget Moneyball. I'd love our recruiters to just watch Collingwood v Sydney from last night over and over again before they draft players and think to themselves "could player A who we are looking to draft find himself a spot in one of those teams playing that type of footy". From there you have a start.

Spencer was one of our few shining slights yesterday. He was fantastic. That chase onto the wing to win the one-on-one was superb. I think he's got a future.

Hahahaha!! I can see it mate. But i kid you not more fights and almost fights happened at windy hill. In 1990 when we won out there i feared for my life leaving. Still sang the song though!!

Keep Dunn. Efficient by foot. His booming kick can break lines off the back flank. He's much better than Petterd, Bate, Bennell etc

Another casual reminder that Essendon missing the finals effectively bumps our mid 1st round compo pick forward by 1 slot (as another team missing the 8 would pick before this compo pick and they'd choose from players we'd have our eyes on, as opposed to picking Daniher).

We're actually getting our hands on the ball, remember the first couple of games we had something like 120 possessions less than our opposition, well that's changed. Sure we're making mistakes but they will diminish as we get some better players back and the others develop their skills. I'm starting to see the way we will play in the future and it gives me confidence that finally we may have one.

I haven't posted for a few weeks because Demonland has become so heavy, whingy and depressing but I had to add my 20c worth. For the first time in a long time I saw some signs of new life. Endeavour and ticker were not an issue for most of the game Nev Jetta was ferocious at times. Blease played four quarters, Grimes leadership - a really good leader emerging here.. Players actually the game on and spreading - yes, I actually saw both defensive andattacking spread!!! Don't get me wrong, we are still horrible at times, but what I saw gave me the best hope I have had since the Bombers win. The forward line was non-existent for most of the game but we have some good players injured.

Saints' bench at the start of the last quarter must be one of the best ever - Hayes, Goddard, I think it was Montagna, and Riewoldt injured. They definitely took the boot off the throat, because their percentage is not a problem for them. Not saying that there weren't "good signs", just not to get too carried away. A "good sign" not mentioned so far was the sheer quality of Trengove's clearance work in the last quarter. Particularly liked the "third-man-up" hitout down Blease's throat for a goal.

I would say that we are finally seeing what happens when Blease, Strauss, Tappscott, Grimes, Trengrove, TMac, Jetta, Howe all play together, add Watts to that mix and we are finally getting all our players together on the park, how often has that actually happened so far in these player's careers? I remember seeing not so long ago that Blease, Watts and Strauss had only had something like 2 games together in the same team, I think we are starting to see something from all three and that if they can all play together consistantly we can see some huge improvement. The same goes for all the others I have listed, Tappy's coming good, TMac is a revelation (despite his brain fades) and Grimes and Trenners are steadily improving (whats happened to Trenners Goalkicking tho?). I know it is an "excuse" but the fact is we have had a terrible run with injuries to some of our most valuable players, (Blease, Strauss, Tapscott and Grimes have missed more than a full year each!) and when they all get out on the park feeling fit and confident we see some much better footy from this side... with some luck hopefully it will continue in a more meaningful way next year.

I agree we need all four to last out the year. But in a single game and if Russian is fit can we play Russian,Spencer and Mitch? I would prefer Mitch to stay forward and I would think he will if his injury delays his pre season. So even though I love all that Pencil is doing he isn't a marking tall at the moment. Stef Martin has showed more as the 2nd ruck/forward. If I had to pick out of Stef and Pencil to ruck all day I'd take pencil but as our 2nd ruckman I'd take Stef at the moment.

We have four Ruckmen who can play when fit . I think we will need all four going into the next few seasons . They have a higher rate of injury than other positions and they take longer to learn to play to their strengths . None of them are hopeless yet none is a star.

oh how I would love Byron back

Akin to the worst employee at the Ford factory quitting a week before they lay off 500 people.

They may not play finals but they do have some very good players. We can sit here and hang sh!t on all and sundry if you want to, but, hell, we have been doing that for the last two months. And this site is fine, except for when people get on here and say that you can't take anything positive in a loss. As a captain of a team that just got pantsed I will say that is absolute BS, and not helpful at all. So you can go start a blog and write about how crap we are but guess what - we know that. But life isn't black and white and if we can pick out something worthwhile in the grey then that's great.

I respect Neville Jetta and hope he stays. I don't respect Brent (hands on the hips) Moloney and hope he goes. He can take Col with him.

the club has shown great faith in blease and even blease has said so when even him himself didn't believe in himself. now lets hope he repays the faith and signs up!

I think Dunn has been ok this year as well. He is versatile and can play in several positions. He was on Milne for a while and didn't concede a goal. I know many on here don't like him but he is not our worst.

High tackle counts (without winning the ball yourself) often can mean you're second/third to the footy, reactive and lazy. More of the same from Sylvia. Please club heirarchy put us all out of our misery and move this guy on.

I didn't take you for the type to tolerate 5 year plans. You should demand results now, lest you be accused of making excuses.

I suppose there is plenty of time to knock that out of him. Can't have him upsetting team balance