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BB hear me out. I'm sure you're well aware of our clubs list management strategy. You know, a few years ago where the club went about paying big contracts early, and staggering other contracts..because someone had to be paid, despite the poor performing list. And the strategy enabled our club to "STRIKE" while the iron was hot with an enticing contract. And it did last year in Clark. (olisik - I know you're reading this so please spell Clark's name without the "e" in future, because everytime I read your posts I think of Michael Clarke and I puke !) And that goes for any other nuff nuff "Clarke" subscriber. Ok. Now after the next 6 weeks take place it could well be that we will have 3,4,12 (incl. compo picks). We know we need quality mids and if the club and it's recruiting can manufacture a decent return with the help of some others we could feasibly achieve this including our F/S pick as a second rounder. Cloke is a RFA, he won't cost a pick, but he'll cost $ and he won't be a project player. The top teams have two decent key forwards and yes they are serviced by good midfields. We have a chance to address both IMO. Improve the functionality of both in one foul swoop. Clark can be a second ruckman and be a dual forward with a Cloke. I'm still big on the midfield, but I'm also willing to accomodate a Cloke if he's attainable thanks to strategic list management position. Or any other experienced player our club sets it's eyes on.

Dam this will interrupt our finals campaign!

If Neeld goes and trades our draft picks away in a super draft to get some B grade mids that work hard I will have an absolute fit. It would be a repeat of the decade that followed 2001. We need to learn to draft and develop our own stars. Not a quick fix to bump us half way up the ladder.

Culture, like character, is forged by adversity. MFC must stick with Liam through this, and will be a stronger and wiser club for it.

The club must stick by Liam otherwise it sends a bad message to all players that the club has no substance and will not look after you if things get a bit tough. We expect everthing from you, your life, your loyalty to stay for less than you get elsewhere (see Scully) but give nothing apart from some cash in return. I expect some flack from the "It's a business" people but in all honesty business is only one part of the mix in sport, an important part but still only a part. There are not too many businesses out there that draw the emotion and passion of a sport and club like ours. We support our people, to do otherwise would be weak and against the grain of the culture we are trying to build.

Sure we can. We carried Newton for years. Hell, we've had entire potato farms sitting on the list vegetating. This is well worth risking.

We can't have a spot on the list taken by a player that may or may not be able to fulfill that spot. I think we have to let his contract lapse and attempt to rookie list him. I don't like posting that, I just thought I would throw it out there because I would not let a spot on the list go to waste if I had the chance...

I disagree with the writer's analysis. It's superficial and doesn't allow for the fact that different players have different rates of development particularly if they have, as is the case with many of Melbourne's recruits, not had the opportunity to show their wares yet because of prolonged periods out of the game through injury. I accept that some of the choices haven't come up to expectations but there's plenty of room for development among a number of our young players. How many of these blokes have played their 50-60 games yet? How many have had the opportunity to take part in a full pre season? As for Taggert and Tynan from the 2011 draft, one hasn't been able to get onto the field much at all this year but is highly regarded and hopefully will get his chances next year. The other (Tynan) will definitely be a footballer IMO.

It is amazing that this goes on to trial when none of the witnesses can remember anything or even be bothered to turn up!!

I say if we have the money GET HIM. Were not giving up anything but money. We still have picks 3,4,12 which will get us 2 or 3 qualtiy mids,which we can trade for ready to go mids(Caddy,Viney,Boak) Cloke would bring members through the gate in 2013 and help with future sponsors. Clark,Jurruh,Cloke and throw in a small forward and we have a ready to go STRONG forward line. The young players will grow under big boys like Cloke and Clark. This for me is a no brainer. GET HIM

Why can't we have both BB? If it's possible to somehow a structure a situation where we net say ... Cloke, Viney, Caddy and picks 3 and 4 in the draft ... shouldn't we have a crack? Why limit it to just the midfield (which I agree is the priority)?

Couple of things young fella. I never said anything about Dawes - go back and check. My comment was more about the "fine young man" statement - which sounds like you either know him or are some sort of psychic. So you are right in the extended sense of looking like a fool. Having said that, Dawes would be a big no from me. Players who get paid to work up the ground and sideways to create space for others are a dime a dozen. As they stay in the system and get worked out, they increasingly attract a specific defensive focus that causes their output to drop. BTW his output has dropped remarkably this year. At his size (and speed and agility at ground level), unless his overhead work is well above average (which it isn't) then he becomes the liability we can all see. Dawes is a medium speed, average overhead gorilla who becomes a liability when the ball hits the ground. Working hard and being effective are two different things youngster.

I'm not trying to have it both ways. There's some middle ground. Do you think it's possible for recruiters to leave a club completely bereft of talent ? Do you think it's possible they'll stuff up every pick ? Even the worst recruiters get some right. It's a matter of evaluating opportunity against performance. CAC delivered Frawley, Grimes, Rivers and Garland, which has provided a sound defence. BP has added McDonald, who despite the odd mistake looks really promising. His courage, tank, height and marking will hold him in really good stead. He'll only improve. With the pace of Nicholson the back-line is relatively young and sound. Davis has potential. Rucks are OK with Jamar, Martin and Gawn, but we're ready to get another. Clark is a great get by Neeld, which gives the forward-line instant structure. How many clubs have a tall marking forward of Clark's ilk ? More is needed, but hopefully Howe (BP) and Jurrah (BP) can be staples up front. A Stevie J, McGlynn, or Breust type wouldn't go astray, but they're few and far between. A quality small is a must. Who knows where Watts will end up and Garland is worth a try over preseason. The famous midfield at Melbourne is clearly an issue, but I'm a Trengove believer and Jones adds solidity. Viney plus 3 and 4 should really help. We have too many C grade mids. Without counting them I reckon there's roughly a dozen players that can form a solid core of at least B grade, or better (canvas), but we need a couple of stars and a few more B+ to A grade mids to turn our fortunes around. CAC got some good players and Prendergast also got a few, but when you look at the top 21 picks at their disposal you'd have to say it's been a poor result, particularly by Prendergast. McLean, Sylvia, Bate, Dunn, Jones, Frawley, Watts, Scully, Trengove, Morton, Grimes, Gysberts, Maric, Blease, Strauss, Tapscott and Cook as a group are a fail for mine. There's 17 top 21 picks in that grouping and I don't count one A grader. Frawley had an A grade year and I really rate him, but he needs to back it up, and Jones has really improved, but he's presently short of A grade. There is time for a number of them to make the sort of progress required, so I recognise that it's unfair to mark some of them so soon, even if there are starting to be queries. We're desperate for a super star and despite plenty of top 20 draft picks we're still hoping and there's not one player that looks close. Clark looks the closest and we didn't draft him. With bookends in Frawley and Clark, the makings of a good defence, and excellent young leaders in Grimes and Trengove there's a bit to work with, but you'd have to say we've made plenty of mistakes on draft day. Maybe I'm painting too much blue sky and having a bit each way, but I've got to hold onto something.

Cloke is good, but not worth the ‘reported’ money or length of contract demanded. MFC can spend the money in a much better way when possible. Many posters have been screaming for midfielders – why the sudden rush of enthusiasm for Cloke when the ball struggles to get into the forward half? Most of the 18 onfield players these days are so-called midfielders with a ruck, one or two forwards and one or two backs. The Cloke exercise doesn’t smell right – don’t get caught yet again MFC.

I'm not a frequent poster by any means on the forum, but I do read it quite often, especially after matches. There's a common lament that's thrown around quite a bit each week; that we've lived through x years of rebuild, and we shouldn't be in this position now, but we should be playing (imagine!) finals footy. I don't disagree with the latter part of the statement, but I'm not sure I completely agree with the first part. I'm an unashamed supporter of Neeld (we'll get to that), and I'm generally optimistic about where we're heading, because I don't believe that this is a rebuilding period; instead, we're building. In other words, Neeld's (re)build is emphatically not a continuation of Bailey's, but is a completely different beast, and an ambitious one at that. Let me explain. The team under Bailey seemed to be constantly in a rebuild phase: it became almost an axiom of the team. I'm not sure whether Bailey was a bad coach, but he certainly wasn't an ambitious one. By that, I mean that he seemed to be rebuilding, while waiting (patiently!) for a finals opportunity to conveniently present itself. He had an aim, but no objective, the latter being a quantifiable outcome (like "improve kicking efficiency," "improve ratio of tackles to opposition possessions per game", etc.), and the former being the end-goal (which doesn't at all have to be realistic). The club under Bailey was reactionary, conservative; the only really great performances were when the game was on their terms, or when they were criticised of being mediocre (see for example the "bruise-free footy" win over Essendon). They never really attacked games, and I think this was the fault of the insidious "we'll get there one day (but we're not good enough today!)" mentality created by calling it a rebuild. We always had the talent, but never the desire. Neeld inherited a directionless team. A team that was waiting around to get into the finals, without fighting for it. A rebuild requires that there are some salvagable parts with which to work with. (Renevations à la Buckley's Collingwood are even easier! Just replace a coat of paint, and you're done! ). Neeld said pretty early on, and he has said at almost every opportunity since, that he is working towards something new. A new brand of football, a new intensity at the ball, all overseen by a new coaching staff. Neeld has an ambition, and he said it as soon as he was made coach: to make us the hardest team to play against in the league. I don't think I've heard him say anything about winning a flag, or playing in the finals (I could have missed something, of course). Every team wants to win the flag. Bailey wanted to win the flag. But you can't win the flag by simply saying that you're going to win the flag. Being a "good" team isn't particularly specific or helpful for any real course of action: many different teams are good at different things; even two "good" teams (e.g. Collingwood and Hawthorn) are "good" in different ways. Being a tough team to play against, on the other hand, has defined parameters, and a defined path to achieve it (improve contested possessions, restrict ball movement, etc.). Neeld is building from scratch, a new team with a new mentality. Neeld's Demons will be, in the future, a proactive team, have no doubt. We have had a shocking year. I'm not that naive. We've won less games than under Bailey. There's no denying that. But there have been few games where I've been disgusted by how the team looks like it didn't show up, whereas that was most of the time with Bailey. Three quarters of a season and a preseason can't erase completely that mentality of rebuilding. But it's going. It takes a hell of a lot longer to build a house from scratch than to rebuild one. Bailey's house was hideous sometimes, pretty others, but was always shaky, and there is no way it could have gone any higher, because the foundations (which I think are the ambition of the archetect) were always faulty. Neeld is laying new foundations. They don't look like much now, but the house built on them will be a hell of a lot prettier than Bailey's. Edit: spelling(s)!

I would find myself barracking for the club, even if I didn't want to, there is no other option. But I often get frustrated with the club to the point of abandoning them, I have for 30 years, but I can never leave the Dees. I liken them to the missus, I stay with her hoping she'll oneday put out.

Geez you're an f-wit sometimes.

Ugh, year from hell continues, especially for Jurrah. I sincerly hope the club sticks by him.

if its glows in the dark it's a nightclub

Doubt they'll bid. GWS most likely will finish last and will wont risk missing Lachie or Grundy. GC will consider trading for an u17 with there first pick, so they wont risk bidding on Viney either as they ll want that pick available to trade with. We'll be ok, the benefits of them bidding does not compare to the risk.

Perhaps Basil's head injury actually resulted from a falling moose head?

So that's where your Demonland alias came from

Not sure how someone is 'repeatedly hit in the head with an axe' and barely has a scar on his head??

The good thing about having a complete dearth of really good senior players is that we have loads of room in the cap to front load such contracts. You can either get great players in one of two ways: 1. recruit them as kids and develop them effectively (which we haven't done in recent years), or 2. attract established players from other clubs. To do the latter, you either need to be a great club in a premiership window (which we are not at the moment), or you have to offer them a very, very fat contract. I say get him. And that means offering him a very fat, front loaded contract. With effective recruiting THIS draft period, I reckon we can transform this list quicker than some people think. Clark and Cloke with an effective engine room is an exciting thought.

Interesting (and depressing) the number of people who believe that while this year may not be the worst on field it is the one giving them the least hope for the future. I am 180 degrees the other way. As appalling as the on field performance has been this year, I have much more hope for the future than I had at any time in the Bailey years. To me, Bailey's downhill skiier game plan was always going to give us wins against poor opposition but have us blasted out of the park by any team with a strong defensive style. Under that scenario, we may eventually have played finals, but never got any higher than perhaps about 6th. Now I believe we're building a team that can challenge in the future. And I don't mean the very distant future. I don't expect finals in 2013, but 2014 will be a possibility. And for what it's worth, I'm old enough to remember the late 60s and the 70s. I reckon we were much, much worse then. We may have won more games, but the distance between us and the top was much greater. We won more games, because there were other teams down there with us (Fitzroy, South Melbourne, Footscray and North Melbourne until the early 70s). For all you without hope, please do not give up. The tide will turn.

Exactly, you just realised? You didn't need to point that out. I already know that, unless your just realising yourself, that were both stating opinions. Mine is that Viney isn't the very best fit for us ahead of Toumpas, Whitfield, Wines, & possibly Stringer & Mayes as well. And opinions aren't meaningless at all. Only less valued if the opinion is based on nothing. My opinion is based on studying our needs & whats on offer @ the top of the U-18's tree. We Need Class ball handlers who can pinpoint targets & make great decisions, & have a bit of pace. ------------------------- We should by rights, as per how other F/S drafts have gone, pay slightly unders for him.... not overs. We shouldn't be screwed by Sheedy or Blight. This Draft is Crucial for our immediate survival & prosperity & having the Giants screw us again or The Suns do likewise, is just wrong. I would not take it & if they nominate him, I'd make them take him. I would then do to them, what Sheedy did to us with $cully.

I reckon it is a good bet that Petrie will kick more goals than our whole team

My dream draft Toumpas Grundy Garlett Viney

I wish I cared

The only thing that will change it is leadership from within their community. Closing a bottle shop won't change a thing.

Mids, mids,Mids, mids,Mids, mids,Mids, mids,Mids, mids,Mids, mids,Mids, mids,Mids, mids,Mids, mids,Mids, mids, That's what we need.

I agree the real story is the booze. But at what point do the people and the community involved admit there's a problem, take responsibility and change?

My ex girlfriend had one of those things in her bedroom cupboard. Kept threatening to hit me with it. She called it her rhythm stick.

Alot of talk about floggings in this thread, May well happen but for the record I think people are getting a bit carried away about North. Their performances against Adelaide and St Kilda were impressive, but really, beating half of Carltons best team (who haven't been impressive since early season) and narrowly downing a Richmond team that the week before lost to Gold Coast and was hardly impressive against us isn't the greatest. They did lose to Port as well.... not saying we will even get close, but in terms of who will be going deep in finals I think North has been highly over-rated. If they make it I see them going out week one. Sorry to sound overly vindictive but I am very sick of bandwagon football media where a few wins in a row = quality team.

Thanks, hardtack for the great read. I'm full bottle vial now. After working throughout the Africa's for 6 years and going out with a chick who worked for the Gates foundation doing HIV/AIDS research I have a fair idea how disease is spread via blood transmission and it's not by wiping it on someones shorts. I have my opinion on this and it won't change. If he wiped it on his face it would be a different story but it was on his shorts FFS. This has been my point all along....

Can they wait until his footy career is finished?

so you dont want Dawes at all then?

Any chance the AFL could bend the rules so Leigh Brown could pull on a jumper?

NB. This prosecutor Steve Robson must really be some special kind of plank to go ahead with such a flimsy case, with unreliable witnesses. Looks like the stereotypical prosecutor desperate to make a name for themselves & getting the sniff of a big name in a case with a large media focus, ignored better judgment and pushed ahead with charges. Only to embarrass himself and others. Although, for any self-respecting QC, discrediting the witness statements of an angry mob who were mainly blind drunk, should be like fishing with grenades.

Jury is still out for Me I see little so far to suggest they will be more than average AFL players. One cannot stay healthy and they other cannot get a game when we are desperate for mid fielders.

Tom doesn't know the meaning of fun and they are in for worse than they have shown .Wait till everyone gets the hell out of there and goes back home . We , as a club ,are in a dark place but the light will appear soon .

That's not all you said at all. The rubbish you sprouted was, "Guarantee you Cotchin and Martin would not be anywhere near as good had they come through our system at the time." I've already given examples how Addam Maric, Miller, Simon Buckley, McLean, Chris Johnson, Paul Johnson (delisted), and Cheney have left Melbourne for other clubs and they're all still [censored]. Richmond have done OK with Houli and Grigg, but what's the bet that Maric stays a hack ? It's not our development that has been the biggest problem it's been the recruiting. Although I recognise that you have no capacity to change your view or appreciate sound reasoning.

Billy the way i feel right now is that we are right on the edge. 2 years ago we were ok, but something inside the club has rocked it very badly. We must get this years Draft 100% right. We must be the most aggressive club in terms of Free Agency. No ifs or buts. If the club does not start to seriously climb in 2013 i do not think we will make the next decade as the Melbourne Demons of the MCG. It is also time the club came clean with its membership base on what has been happening since 2006...we paid good $$ we pulled the club from the floor. But today we still compete on the floor...why?

Ian Robertson was very under rated. Their call of the 1990 Windy Hill game was bloody brilliant. I was there. Last time i went to that dump.

Must i remember 2011 whilst 2012 is still in motion!! One nightmare at a time please... Until the list is culled to the bone and Neeld recruits who he wants we are non competitive. Which is an indictment on the MFC...

Some serious face palming happening here whilst im reading through this. Jackie effing lol at some of your post. To the others who are calling for Neelds head just rancho relaxo, Melbournes list stinks, you can thank Daniher and Bailey for that. Im assuming Neeld wouldnt even look twice at some of our players if he had the chance. So sit back, try and get some joy out of the rest of the season because in reality we arent going to be winning too many games, maybe 1-2. We will get some draft picks and hopefully use them well. Thats the reality of it all, there are no quick fixes unfortunately, just look at richmond. They stuffed up their recruiting mid 2000s but finally got it right, unfortunately we are the new richmond. Go Dees 2013

Thanks for that Hampton - had a great laugh. On a slightly related note, listening to commentators mangle the english language is one of the great joys I derive from the season (particularly when we're sitting at 2-15 or whatever we are). On Friday night, when a controversial free kick was paid against Essendon, Brian Taylor said that: "The Bomber fans are absolutely erratic about that one!" Earlier in the year, Brian Lake was asked whether we had doubted last year that he could come back to senior football. He replied: "You always have doubts - there's no doubt about that". And then of course there was Brad Green's effort last week, when he was asked a question about the AFL's women's round and what role women had to play in football. He said: "I'm sure one day we'll see a club employing assistant coaches or coaches with a woman's background."

I'd probably do something along the lines of switching Hawthorn's list for Melbourne's...

A great midfield can make a very average forward look good, so mids mids mids! With so many picks at least one of them has to come off.

Cloke not worth near the coin being talked . Hope we stay well clear.