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Liam is jumping out of his skin to play footy again.

I find it strange to say that we were heading towards the Geelong style of play and recruited accordingly by picking more outside skinnier players. In big games (including finals) Geelong don't play a game style suited to skinny outside players. They play a contested brand of footy with big bodies and aggression. The conception of Geelong as a fast outside team was probably born in 2007, when they went against the Sydney and West Coast style of one-on-one accountable footy (which produced low scores) which was the pre-eminent game plan of the mid 2000s, and produced a high possession, play on at all costs style to break up the one-on-one nature of the contest. But this does not mean they were a fast outside team. They were as good in the contested ball and when it came to finals footy and big games against top opposition it was their ability to win the contests and use the ball well that made them so great. Their midfield was not fast and their backline was not fast, other than Wojcinski. Cam Mooney said the other night that Geelong's number one focus over their successful period has always been contested footy. So if we wanted to adopt the Geelong game plan, we would need to recruit players that could win their own footy and could make quick decisions and use the ball well. Yet the argument here is that we were going down the Geelong path and that's why we've recruited blokes who are now struggling under Neeld as they can't win contested ball? As Old said, a good player is a good player. Elite midfielders can win the ball inside and outside and use it well. They can adapt to a contested or uncontested game plan. If some of our players aren't able to get a game in the best 22 of Neeld's team, it will be because they are not good enough, not just because they were recruited for a different game plan. And I would also argue that to continually recruit a type of player based on a certain game plan isn't a great strategy, as game plans can and do evolve rapidly. Any game plan and team requires a balance of players with a combination of skill sets.

My solution to the scrum/holding the ball on the ground crap is simple. If you aren't the player with the ball orthe tackler, if you jump into a contest you are penalised. So many players run in and dive across the contest to kill the ball. The third player in invariably is tackling/holding a player who doesn't actually have the ball, that's holding the man, you can't tackle the tackler! Or they just jump on backs. pay it against these infringements and watch ther game open up again.

God there is a lot of rubbish spoken on this forum. If Nathan Jones has a problem it is the ineptitude around him!

Jones is in our top 5 players this year. Pick on the other 40 hacks first!!! Stupid thread.

I blame Bohdan.

double penalty Free is given to sideA then sideA infringes and sideB gets the free Correct decision should be a cancellation not a reversal -> ball up Otherwise it is effectively a DOUBLE penalty Infringement off play Play on half back. Infringement on half forward. Free taken at Half Forward - should be at point of play Effectively a free kick plus 100 metres Same with 2nd shot on goal with infringement after goal scored - should be taken at centre etc etc

I was a kid throughout the 1970's, so was only exposed to the games I went to and the odd quarter of footy on a Saturday night, but I have to say that the report of Thomas is the most bewildering I've seen in my time watching football. If it's not thrown out I'll just about give up on the game. He has no case to answer and there's no correlation between his attack on the footy and Goodes reckless attack on the man with the footy. If you didn't know Rohan was injured you'd be amazed to be told there was a report. Accidental incidental contact caused Rohan's injury. Thomas was first to the ball and turned his backside to protect himself. I heard Paul Roos' comments on The Couch last night and can only assume he has the intellect of a dung beetle, which in itself is an extraordinary accusation against a premiership coach, but I have no other logical explanation. The fact that Mark Robinson wants the ban upheld only supports my stance. The match review panel should resign on mass. Without question it's the most illogical kneejerk reaction to an injury I've ever encountered.

I will not criticise the OP but conversely I wont put the knock on Jonesy either as I think the problem is structural. I agree that Chunk doesnt get the ball out because I am not sure I see a person to dish the ball out to. Against the Lions we were smashed in the clearances - they had Black who was in and under but everytime Black got the ball there seemed to be a player 5 metres off the pack in space to dish to. In the clearances I see all our players too close to the action. One needs to drop off the back or side to get a handball receive. We are cellar dwellers in handball receives and that is a big part of Jones problem - who the hell can he give it to ?

I think you and Jake Niall are over-playing this card. There's no evidence that Strauss cannot win contested footy (and kick it well) he hasn't had a chance to show his wares yet. Good players are good players, Blease has run and spread attributes that will be vital if we progress beyond the basics of Neeld's defensive style - yes he'll have to learn defensive structures and win his fair share of his own ball too - Adam Cooney was pretty effective last night, hopefully that's the direction he can develop. Bennell might be a bust because he's too small and can't win enough contested football but my understanding is that the Eagles were going to take him with the next selection, they play a contested style and recruit suitable players - sometimes it doesn't work out and he was pick 35 after all. Maybe you can explain why the Eagles picked Tom Swift in this context? It went Blease, Shuey, Strauss, Swift but apparently we stuffed up and according to many they're geniuses? Scully, Trengove, Gysberts, Tapscott were the other early picks and all have contested ball winning skills. I think our list is being written off prematurely - hell the Scully picks aren't even on the list yet.

'Spose we'll just have to wait on see on that one . They'll either bring in a rule change or ping the next bloke . Let's hope Watts or Trengove don't have their legs broken just above the ankle by a similar act . When I played footy nobody ever came into a contest "feet first" . It would have been viewed as a less than courageous act .

If one of these indicators is butchering the ball by foot, then i'd say we excelled in that aspect last Sunday.

its typical of the AFL's match review pannel - if an injury occurs they seek to blame a person rather than admit that the game has the ability to hurt players this would be worse than the trengove sling tackle. It would be punishing Thomas for going hard and beating his oponant to the the ball.

That stupid bloody interchange infringement rule. Sure a free-kick if you have to give something but the 50m penalty is way over the top and it often results in a goal.

You are so right.It is impossible to know what now constitutes incorrect disposal. A throw is seemingly now ok ?? And the lottery that follows players piling on top of each other is a complete farce. Changes initiated by Geischen and his cohorts who think they somehow need to justify themselves under "rules of the game" are a joke.

Thanks for the reply. I didn't really have much direction to what I was saying, but essentially, I can't fault Daniher for his moves because I agreed with them at the time and to do so would be hypocritical of me. Poor drafting, development and resources can't all be laid at his feet, and while I know that this has been acknowledged in this thread, the title suggests he's a villain in all of this, which I think does him a great disservice. Cheers.

I am completely disillusioned at the state of umpiring and rule/interpretation changes in our game. Living in the northern states and having friends who follow other sports and are interested in watching games, it is almost embarrassing trying to explain some of the rules and interpretations. For me, the rules need to simplified, stripped back to the core of the game, and left alone.

Yup we recruited to replicate Geelong's list. Watts - (actually picked to be more of a Nick Riewoldt but at pick 1 you take that) - Blease - Wojcinski, Strauss - Hunt, Tapscott-Chapman, Scully-Ablett, Trengove - Bartel, Jurrah - Stevie J. The theme also went onto existing players Frawley - Scarlett, Rivers - Harley. Anyway our best footy over the past few years was played with an attacking corridor centric brand of football. You know the days that every commentator mentioned how exciting we are, the days we thought that our best could match it with anyone. The days we actually did match it with the best (Collingwood 2010 x2). Breaking our game apart and starting from scratch seems very unnecessary to me.

To me, this is a first world problem. If he was at Collingwood then yes, they might be worried about these sorts of things. But he is at 'Third World' Melbourne and he would be our most consistent and selfless performer, if our young mids picked up his work ethic and professionalism - they will be a very good midfield in a few years.

Ridiculous thread.Jones has his weaknesses as all players do, but if we had 22 playing with his determination, we would not be 0-4 !

You can't help bone injuries, only soft-tissue injuries can be "attributed" to the fitness guys (see Essendon).

How does giving someone the captaincy decrease their leg speed? Interesting logic but I'm sure one of you will find a way to explain it ...

Unsure about Jurrah suspension wise but we have said he is available this week. Only last week there was a discussion on the club culture. Well this is how you change it; leaders (neald) set the standards and them enforce them. If you don't like it, bad luck. If we had any on field leaders setting the standards for the past 10 years, a) we wouldn't be in this mess, and B) the on field leaders would set the standards and enforce them. On field, we don't have any one mature enough, respected enough, or good enough to set the standards, thurs we have recruited these qualities in our coaches to ensure there is leadership and culture change. Great decision. Out may be to late for sylvia, but it won't be for watts, strauss etc.

Neale Daniher was a fine coach for this club. I can't look back angrily at him for the state of our list at the end of 2007. There are a few things that people are picking up on here. Firstly, the topping up. Some of the mature players brought in under Daniher's reign were Pickett, Read, Funcke, Moorcroft, Ellis, Vardy, Bizzell and Moloney. Pickett and Read were brought in specifically to address a glaring weakness of the team - toughness. That may not have resulted in helping us win a flag, but I thought they were the right moves at the time and stand by that. Funcke was a weird decision, but Ellis, Moorcroft, Vardy and Bizzell were all brought in to address positional needs, and that's good. I subscribe to the philosophy around drafting best available regardless of position, and trading for needs. Neale brought in players who could help the team win - which after all, is a fairly key component of footy. Ultimately, we were denied the ultimate in 1998 by a disgusting finals system and in 2000 by one of the best single season teams of all time, and in 2004-06 gave very good accounts of ourselves before injury/lack of superstars and midfield dominance saw the premature end of us. Daniher would have dudded us all by not going all out for it. Secondly, the drafting. This is the key stuff up, and yes as another poster has highlighted the danger of coaches having too much say in draft picks, we saw this first hand with him requesting the toughest player in the 2001 draft crop and Cameron selecting Molan at 9. Cameron has to bear much of the responsibility for the way the list was comprised at the end of 2007. His parade of draft busts were embarrassing, and his failures in the first round of the 2001, 2002 and 2004 drafts in particular go some way to explaining how we got here. I know not every club makes every first round pick a winner, but they also compensate with some later games or at least one superstar calibre player drafted, but not here. On development, what percentage blame can be attributed to Daniher? I don't know, but the club is responsible for paying for this area, and Daniher managed to get us to the finals more often than not in spite of the worst facilities in the league, little FD spending, and poor recruiting. 2007 let's not forget was an injury apocalypse the likes of which I haven't witness before or since. We came into that season the best Victorian team in the AFL and big things were expected. Our list upon Neale's departure had the following players: Youngsters: Buckley, Jones, McLean, Bate, Frawley, Sylvia, Dunn, Petterd, C Johnson, Bartram, Garland, Newton and Bode. Mid-age: Green, Bruce, Moloney, Wheatley, Miller, P Johnson, Carroll, Bell, Rivers, Godfrey, Ferguson, Davey, Warnock, Jamar Senior: Neitz, Robertson, White, Yze, McDonald, Johnstone, Holland, Whelan Retiring: Brown, Bizzell, Pickett He also left the incumbent with pick 4 in the National Draft to work with. The rebuild was a decision the club made, it was not forced upon them because Daniher fed them a vomit burger. I'm not saying it was the wrong decision, but it was a decision - from what you hear not all coaches who went through the interviews for the Melbourne job in 2007 would have taken the same path, but thats hearsay. Regardless, the above list looks a lot better had we not butchered so many first round picks. Neale did his job in terms of coaching a team well on a shoestring budget, and was always prepared to publicly promote the club.

He has had more Kicks Marks and goals than Natanui and Hurley. He is a better player than Tom Hawkins and Goddard were at his age. He can play midfield and key position in a similar vein to James Hird. Im still banking on him to be our no.1 player in a couple of years...just in time for us to flourish. and you wait till a fella named Jordie Gysberts comes on...still very young, great pair of hands, along with Viney will be in our top 2 midfielders.

On Saturday I went to the football and had a very good time. No I said Saturday went to see Uni Blacks play Oakleigh in the Amateurs. Enjoyed it no end, you are close to the Game can hear the coaches address etc. Game was played less like the AFL and more like the game of 15 years ago. I could actually work out the game plan Standard is not as good but it was played at a fairly fast rate. Uni Blacks got up, had a couple of beers with a couple of mates on the way home. All in all a good day. Then I went yesterday. I cannot work out what they are trying to achieve with the usual result Came home again with my guts torn out, with no hope in sight. Not much more needs to be said. But I am now off to the welcome relief of the USA for the next couple of weeks. Do not have to endure the debacles of St Kilda, Geelong or Hawthorn. I hope there is a MFC left when I get home. Good luck I feel for you all,

Absolute utter bull****......his second efforts are always there! His ability to make a contest when double and triple teamed is impressive and his ball retention when he's in a contest has improved considerably this year. His physicality is improving in a linear fashion and his marking is stronger and more imposing. And his skill and decision making is becoming progressively elite. He's just getting better in a way that'll never impress people like you because you want him to resurrect this team singlehandedly. Ridiculously impatient expectations and inability to see the reality beyond the irrational desire.

This is where the "Like This" button is unhelpful. I need an "I agree, but I don't have to Like It" button because your point is well made. To say I "Like This" may give the wrong impression.

And how did Bailey's competitive philosphies work out ? And his much maligned and criticised game plan ? See my thread "Three cheers for Neale !" If you're intent on getting political, explain to me how on earth the previous Gardner administration allowed: - 1/ Neale's regime to squeeze every last drop out of an aging list whilst topping up with NQR players looking for their Super when it was apparent after 2004-05, that our list management was up sh!t creek without a paddle and certain players were being signed on lengthy contracts at a time when it was clear a major rebuild was on the horizon. 2/ A insurmountable debt of over $5 million to come to fruition on the back of three successive finals campaigns 2004-05-06. 3/ Leaving the club in such a position that it requird a 6-8 year re-build with crippling debt, and a membership base languishing at around ~24,000. Since then the club haven't reached the finals, languished at the bottom of the ladder, eradicated all debt, increased membership each year (50% increase since 2006/7), increased spending and expanded on FD for development of players, and established a more professional brand and run club in various areas including communication, IT and importantly facilities and assets. And managed to be in the strongest position financially the club has been in the meantime. They've selected a coach who has the job of building the current list and adding to it - IT IS NOT A TOTAL REBUILD - as some are mentioning, the way he sees fit and to build a team and game/mindset that he believes can win a Premiership. Give him some time.

Jack is a 21yo playing with the worst midfield, the worst group of senior players in the AFL, I thought in the last quarter he had his chance on 3 occasions to take good strong contested marks he had good purchase but couldn't hold them. I don't think it is his concern of Physical contact I think it is like all our players they have no confidence. It will click for Jack as a forward one day this year and we will have two tall very good mobile targets deep inside our 50m arc. The more games Jack and Mitch can play together and work each other out the better we will be.

Must be a pre-requisite that every player under 20 needs to get injured at least once every year. Must be some issues with the training load or something, this is happening way to much to all the youngsters. Outside of Watts I can't think of a player 20 or under who hasn't been injured at least once in the last 2 years.

Face - palm. Yeah, let's keep flogging that dead horse too. Let's remove the undiscipline and improve the fitness and then we might get somewhere. FFS.

The only indicator we need to have is get the F**king ball indicator, because if you have it your opponents can't score. Sorry they can and the way we are kicking at the moment we more than likely we force a behind.

Hodge will make a difference and they really need a key defender, they are putting a lot on getting Gilham back into the side. I'm not convinced about their precision kicking game plan either, not making a call just yet but want to see how it stacks up in a real pressure situation. The ultimate cop out from me is a premiership this year and it's a winner, no premiership and it's a fail.

I wish our midfielders as a collective had the ability to squeeze out handball after handball that gives us time and a little space. We just always seem to be unable to get that quick, spacing, shooting ball out which puts us under pressure where as watching the so many other sides bang bang bang/handball handball handball space/everyone spreads and away they go.

Yeah, just before the incident he was grimacing and looking at it. He's been a really great pickup I think. I even think if something HAD gone horribly wrong, and he had to wait until next season for his next game, fans would probably be mostly positive on his recruitment. He's kicked 10 goals, and has been invilved in numerous telling plays. He may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but he has absolutely no lack of talent, passion, anger, skill, courage, leadership... If you go on potential, he could quite conceivably be the next Neitz in the side. I've seen enough, and I daresay most would have. Watching it on replay, I can't believe he's still with us, given his head went into his ribcage like a turtle. Did anyone else basolutely LOVE his double tackle on the flank, that was eventually given as a free against? Bad luck, but wow the effort from a ruckman-sized player... If Watts doesn't look at that and think, I wanna be like Mitch, then he never will.

Jones will never be an elite AFL midfielder and we need to get to a stage where he isn't our best midfielder, which he currently is. Doesn't mean he isn't a very important part of the midfield group going forward. He has been our best and most consistent player all year and has been a true leader through the middle. Bagging him seems harsh, although I agree that he needs to be a smaller component in a better midfield.

Out: Joel Mac, Tapscott, Tom McDonald, Sellar In: Grimes, Sylvia, Martin, Couch/Petterd Joel Mac, god, I like his attack but in the modern game if you can't kick (which the majority of our backline can't) then you get butchered. Batram hanging on by a thread, perhaps because he is in the leadership group. Tom Mc has a future, but needs to have a spell at Casey to work on some of his deficiencies. Kosi out doesn't help his case. Tappy just does not look fit at all, was limping towards the end of the game, give him a rest and then a couple of hitouts at Casey (as much as I love him) Grimes and Sylvia should add some much needed class. Endeavour needs to be replicated.

Bloody Hell...The Jones Boy has played 4 solid games this year...he is certainly not in the firing line. Get off his case please.

I think that's about right. He certainly picks and chooses when to put his body behind the ball. What we are seeing though is improvement. I think we are fairly consistently seeing fatigue setting in with him later in games, whether it be physical or mental. The story of the development of Jack Watts is still only in its second or third chapter.

Well, that's good. We are not getting enough 'cheap stats'... What you think is cheap may be golden - we get slaughtered in the uncontested possession counts this year. We need more players running looking for 'cheap' stats. Then you have made your mind up. If you get on here after that game, in which Morton would have been top 6 or 7 players and attack him for being insipid - you have unfairly damned him by not mentioning the dozen or more players that were worse than he was. You're tired of insipid players (I am tired of insipid performances) but if you are tired of that then you should look further than Cale.

He definately drops some marks which i would already assume he had taken control of for sure, what this is may be concern of contact, just as much expecting it and alot of the time it didnt come on the weekend. he seemed free then let it slip. I would love to see him take more contested marks but think it will come. Suggesting he has a fear of the conctact is wrong when you see him jump into scrum situations ect, on the ball

I am actually starting to think that Watts is becoming more like a Pendlebury for us. I just checked their sizes, SP is 191cm and 91kg, JW is 196 and 91kg also (per both club's websites). They both come from basketball backgrounds and seem to have a better sense of their surroundings than others, hence why they can get through a congested situation and not just barge through it (like a Jones/Hurley etc will try to). Both have very good skills and are the ones you would rather kicking the ball into the forward line rather than diving in and getting it out (that is the job of jones etc for us and Ball for the pies). I wouldn't personally mind if he was then groomed as this type of player rather than a forward, for one, god knows we are desperate for some polish around the midfield and two, Geelong has shown in the last few years that if your mids are good enough, you can get by with a non star studded forward line. Now with Clarke showing he can take a mark and crash a pack, there isn't as big a calling for JW to be the massive forward presence. Resting him in the forward line would then become an added bonus to him.

Good post MikeyJ. Thompson was class in 2004 but I know why he left officially but am wondering why he actually left? You are spot on with the Jolly/White issue. Neither at the time could play forward. Jolly was mediocre in 2004 and became a petulant sook. He wanted out in 2004 with a year on his contract. We traded him for a first round pick and we use it get Lynden Dunn. Bad pick. 1. ND did well given the on field and off field resources we had. Neitz, White and Yze have been rightly criticised at times but they did form a back bone for this team. 2. We had a string of underfunded indifferent adminstrations who at times behaved for their own interest. 3. Smith and Molan were poor picks front and centre. We recruited the C-Collins brothers pre ND in 1996. Worst decision we did times 2. 4. Salary cap stuff hurt us. It would have have been more in Gutnick normal corporate behaviour if he had said nothing. 5. Complete myth. None of the young players were competing with Yze, White and Robbo. We erred in trading for PJ and Pickett. We stuffed up the 2001 draft badly.

Your whole premise (and conclusion) is based on an "imagined" conversation between each of Sanderson and Neeld and the board - time will tell if Neeld was the right choice.

First of all I agree with your post. You brushed over how the club decided to rebuild, we have cleared probably 80% of the list since 2007-08 if not more. The reason we are in the position we are in at the moment though is due to the clubs philosophy in regards to recruiting & list management as well as the investments being made into the FD. When the club decided to rebuild they decided to rebuild through the draft almost exclusively. Connolly & Schwab spoke at the time about attaining high draft picks & that it would be the panacea to future success. Well we all know this isn't true, the current situation is proof of that. A change in philosophy of player recruitment has to occur at the club. It is fine to attain high draft picks if you get them right & have the resources to develop them as well as senior players to show them the way, however that isn't the case currently at the MFC. The club needs to look at filling holes in the list with players from outside the the traditional U18 system & start making some smart decisions in regards to bringing in senior players similar to what Sydney has been doing for years(particularly in the midfield). The club has leaned too far to one direction of bringing in youth without giving them any senior players to follow. Whilst I am a strong believer in developing young players, a club has to be good at doing it they are going to adopt this philosophy as their primary focus. Perhaps the biggest failing over the last 3-4 years was that the club simply didn't have the resources & setup within the FD to adopt the youth development system as their sole means of player/list development.

The only people who think the MCC has an elitist culture are the sad people who want to be in it but aren't. There is no the remotest thing elitist about it. Its simply a good place to watch football and doesn't have mindless swearing or drunken violence because you lose your membership. And if you want to wait another 27 years they 'might' let you back in.

me too and there is no better seat in the house than on the balcony in the mcc

I can't stand sitting In the MCC! Level 2 Southern Stand Red Legs area Is where you'll find me.

I agree with the sentiments of Jaded and Thomo, as I also thought he looked pretty good albeit there was minimal competition from team mates...... There were moments when he looked as excellent as we all hope he can be, but clearly he drifted and dropped his head towards the end. I do admit to love seeing him with ball in hand as he tends to use it better than most. And while we all know what we need (and want) up forward, but maybe this is where he proves to be best. Although I would like to see him drift into the forward line at times as he so tall and could prove to be quite effective, but he is going to need more physicality. Thought he was good today though, definitely an improvement on his somewhat woeful preseason form. So I guess the glass is half full'ish !!!