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I think you make some very good observations in the OP, Thomo. Personally, I have been in the WIMP (Watts In Midfield Proponents) camp during the summer. We don't have many players in the midfield who can really end up being that elite 'untaggable' style of midfielder. He has speed, he has class, he can actually win contested style midfield ball. Plus he can float forward to mark and be really damaging. What we lack in our midfielders is real power. Not just strength, but strength with speed. Sylvia has it, but he hasn't been able to put anything together in a midfield sense. The only midfield type player we have that has a real blend of speed, power and endurance is Grimes. He has an ability to break lines and packs with his raw power, and do it for extended periods. People talking about Moloney don't quite understand the level we are looking for. Moloney is a good player, but nowhere near the top class. McKenzie is the same, as he will be a really good player and really important to our side, but he'll only ever be able to achieve a level below that. We need to look at players that are untaggable. Gysberts could well be if he gets bigger and improves his endurance, because he has the unbelievable Simon Black knack of being able of ghost through stoppages untouched and getting the handball out despite the bodies around him. I see Trengove as being taggable, despite being really, really good. From what I've seen of Viney, he has a knack of finding clean footy in contests - it just depends on whether it's an elite Sam Mitchell knack or a solid Brent Moloney knack. The dark horse is Jeremy Howe. His running is sensational and he has the ability burst run. That is, long efforts at top speed. He has the skills, he has the size and he has the X-factor. This is especially so if he adds strength to his speed and endurance. I think it's imperative to find a midfield star. We don't have many options that scream out that they could be it, which is why Scully is a loss. I think that Grimes, Watts and Howe are our best options.

Just to get back to the OP... Watts would be an interesting mid, I don't see the hunger for the hard ball in him which may be the end of discussion but he is very smart on the field, and his skills are obviously in the top echelon of players. Other than ocasionally on a wing, I don't see it happening. I agree on Bail, his running capacity is elite and he gets to the right areas, if we have the chance to develop a Dane Swan- like player, it will be Bail. Now, Frawley is a tremendous footy player and reads the play quite well. But getting the footy in the middle may elude him. And we will never know, because he will be a regular AA fullback and flag winning defender.

McKenzie 37 games (battled with injury) Trengove 37 Grimes 32 (injuries) Bail 18 (injuries) Gysberts 18 (injuries) Tapscott 15 (injuries) Nicholson 9 Blease 5 (broken leg...) Viney 0 GIVE THEM TIME. How can we be writing off our midfield when these players are averaging barely a full seasons worth of games between them, and many have struggled to have a consistent uninjured run during their time with us? I'm patient and i have faith, i wish others did too

He has had seven years on the list and has not nabbed a clear position in the best 22 and on last years form is not close. He is in his final year of contract... MFC will have to off load oput of contract and/or surplus players to take up their PP and their draft picks.... His name is in the gun. And with every week he does not cement a spot in the best 22 then the closer he is to the door. And if you dont like participating in thse types of discussions then you dont have to.

I won't be judging progress in the first 11 rounds on wins and losses. I'll be judging it on the execution of a game plan and an incremental improvement in the individual players performances. If that means no more than 2 wins in the first 11 games I won't be freaking out. They already showed promising signs of structures and game plans on the weekend and it is all they are talking about in interviews now. It's the new mantra . St Kilda under new coach Ross Lyon is a bit of a benchmark for me on what to expect. He inherited a team that was cherry ripe and having just played in a couple of Prelim's but it took it 3/4's of a season to adapt to his new game plan. They were aweful early in his first season. The D's are still at the very early stages of developing a young squad. More so than any other team other than the two new teams and possibly the Lions. The Tigers are clearly further along on an actual timeline of development, for instance Riewoldt and the midfielders. I'm confident we will be better but we are at a different stage of development to nearly all other teams. Patience is required. It's possible St Kilda will go backwards this year with all the coaching upheavel etc but its hard to see any other teams going backwards. So I don't see why people are so confident about beating so many teams above us on last year's ladder. It will happen but I will be surprised if it happens in the first 11 rounds while they are getting used to the new regime.

"After long-term injuries, midfielder Jordie McKenzie (achilles) and defender James Strauss (leg) are now only two weeks away from playing." I find this simply incredible. It looked like a horrible break at the time. This is really good news.

From what I hear of Taggert I am heartened, but he'll take some work. He does have power and size, but he has some other aspects that he really has to work on. But I'll wait until I actually see him play live in a few matches before I get excited. Bartel is a really good player, but he is definitely taggable. Ablett is untaggable, but Bartel is just really good. That's how I think of Trengove. He would be a top quality Robin, but he's not Batman. He doesn't have the speed to be untaggable, but if you give him some space then he'll kill you.

Lots of hand wringing about hand wringing :/

Christ, alright. I'll tell me and my people to settle down over here and stop posting on forums.

You are all aware of the "ignore" function yeah? Execute it and exhale..

Their first flags were roid driven-have a look at the size of them all . Clenbuterol wouldn't have hurt them either . I say we launch an investigation and strip them of their flags .

Yeah agreed, he might be a dud, but you kind of missed my point if one out of our basket of young hopefuls can step up into the selwood-bartel stratosphere i.e blease, gysberts, tynan, tapscott. then you surround them with strong bodied skilled midfielders, then there is no need for a star like Judd or Ablett. also just on Viney, you mentioned you havent seen him play; he's definitely built in the same ilk as Valenti, as in short and grunty,but his skills, reading of the play and use of the ball is phenomenal. which is why he has been rated by Quayle as one of the top 5 picks

How is this antagonist a mod? I know people that don't read Demonland just because of Rhino Richards. Usually I couldn't care less, but I'm sick of seeing this guy's double standards, and his constant condescending hounding of WYL is frankly tiresome. This question is for any of the other mods to read/reply/delete, so RR you need not concern yourself. typo

Just got my sister and dad signed up as trident members for the first time my dad is a m.c.c so has never wanted to have both but i put my foot down and it payed off and my sister is a first time member after being just a fan for 20 years so im very happy to have got some new members on board. I feel good today like i have done a bit to help the club

This is nothing to do with televised media, but thought it worth a mention. I came across an article in the latest Leader Newspaper for City of Yarra. I know things are a bit slow, But they have a photo Of Jimmy presenting his No. 20 Jumper to Mitch Clark

That is one of the best summaries I have seen on here in a long time. There is no "player bashing", just fair and reasonable assessments.

When in the ruck, Martin plays around the ground like another rover. He does it well. More the Jeff White style without the 'behind the ball' tactic that Daniher employed far too often. So in that respect I agree, but if we are moving into the 'he should play as a rover when not rucking' I would say - when does he rest? And we might be able to manage it so that he plays 30% in the ruck and 40% in the forward line (rest) and 30% on the ball with Jamar but it would have to be well monitored. Especially if teams run people through him.

That is the attitude Billy...The MFC must start to punch beyond its weight division. Sure we will get knocked down at times, but it is a matter of coming back and doing it again. The only way to gain respect. At present we have no respect on the field, & do not deserve it. Round 2 will be astruggle, but after last year i expect the club to have a real solid dip. The other 10 games i would expect to be thought of as some chance as we do have some talent in the list. How quick do they learn once the black cloud has dispersed? And how much better are the other clubs when pressured? Under Bails we could only apply pressure sporadically, but when it did occur it was very good. Maybe i am too optimistic but i like to think this list will learn fast now that 2011 is consigned to history.

If it meant running a minibus full of nuns off the side of a road then I'm with you. A few blokes off their chuff on coke on the other hand I could not care less about if it ends in glory.

Which do you think? You just read it wrong. And you now know you have because of the rhetorical nature of this post I am replying to. I think a popular refrain from rpfc over the last few years is that we have no stars, haven't had any for a while, and will suffer the indignity of being a 'good side' and not a 'great side' until we do. Your last post about the three potential star mids on our list was a promising step-up, stmj. Trying to trip up posters with semantical arguments that don't follow is not.

I would argue that the reason 'elite midfielders' are labelled 'elite midfielders' is because most of them - (if not all) - are highly versatile footballers and excel in most areas of the game. We have three in my eyes who could potentially reach that status. Sylvia Trengove Grimes All three possess an all round game. They can all mark well, can kick well, can win the hard ball, have speed, awareness, agility, flexibility. Multiple attribute players they are. The higher one's skill level and attribute count is, the higher the chance he is of reaching 'elite'/'top class' status. Although Grimes hasn't played midfield much for us, he still possess's those attributes that could take him to 'elite mid' status. Moloney Jones Magner Couch Bate J Mac Collectively, they are all ball winners. None of them will ever reach elite status, simply because they are all too one dimensional. Some may argue that Moloney can reach it but again, I believe he is too one dimensional. He has an elite ball winning ability, but we will never see him go forward and take a match winning contested mark, kick amazing goals, deliver the ball with poise and finesse to a forward etc. Bail Nicholson These two are really our only two straight line runners, neither of them have great footskills, neither of them are all round players. In fact I played against young Nicholson not two years back so it's amazing he is even considered to be a top mid amongst a few on the forum. They're both elite runners. Bail seems to be improving every year, but again, while good support players, neither will reach a top level. Gysberts is the other who's name is thrown around as potentially becoming 'elite.' Again, he is not complete enough to make the Sylvia/Trengove/Grimes group. He doesn't possess the same footskills, contested marking ability, speed, running ability etc. He is a fantastic ball winner again, but I don't see him becoming the player many believe he will become. He just doesn't possess the same number of attributes. Just so people know, those potential three still haven't made it so obviously it's not as simple as it sounds. Sylvia still has his consistency/mentality issues, Trengove is still 20 and Grimes has to stay on the park. But they are the three in my eyes who are the most gifted in multiple areas of the game and I reckon we will need a couple more before we get to where we want.

haha you're done.

Wins: Brisbane @ G 50/50s: Richmond @ G WB @ G STK @ G Sydney @ SCG Essendon @ G Losses: WCE @ PATS Collingwood @ G Carlton @ G Slaughterings: Hawthorn @ G Geelong @ Doomsday park My consensus is that yes we have a tough first half of the year (esp considering we play Haw & Coll in last 2 rounds of NAB cup). I believe that it all comes down to the 50/50 games in the 1st half of the year (Rich,StK,Wb,Syd,Ess) and whether we can win 2-3 of them. Hopefully in the others we can compete and maybe pinch 1 of them along the way (maybe Carlton or WCE). I think if we go in halfway with 4-5 wins we are still in a good position to play finals footy which has to be the objective for this year!

yeah i even get my direct debted from my account through out the year, its like 20 bucks a month you dont notice it going really, i admit ive only been a member for 5 years now but i dont get to goto alot of games as i play football basketball and boozing on the weekends, the club needed members so i put the hand in the pocket, still only get to a handful of games a year but love being a member!!

Personally I think we are a long way from home and more than what people wish to admit and we should of got our first rounders right the first time. I know draft picks can not work out to plan but take a look around and other clubs seem to have got it on the right track. We are killing ourselves with hope if we are praying on the likes of Sylvia, Morton, Nicholson, Blease, Bail, McKenzie etc to become an 'A' grade midfield. Personally I think we have stuffed up big time with our golden picks, lets hope this draft we get seriously lucky. Yes I do have a problem with the way we have recruited, no hiding that, I hope someone see's where Im coming from!! Unfortunately Scully & Scott Thompson would be handy. But life goes on. Who's to say Neeld can't create miracles anyway & I would be very happy indeed.

Strangely enough it was his dropped mark and then fight to regain the ball against 2 opponents that set up the winning goal against Brisbane, I think he gets a rough deal on here, I think his biggest issue is consistency. He has an upside though cause I think he hates to be beaten.

Good post thomo i really think that moloney could hit elite status this year i know some think he is a flat track bully on here but if melbourne get better then so will moloney i really could see him being top 3 in the brownlow this year he looks very fit and we know he has alot of guts so i think of all our current mids he is the best chance of being a real A grade mid this year and he might just have a real cracker of a season.

I would imagine Tim Harrington would be looking at the list of out-of-contracted players, and will already be trying to put certain extensions in place (see Mark Jamar). There would be others players in the same boat (ie OOC), that TH will not see as high priority, and I think Dunn would defintely fall in to this category. If they announce mid year that Dunn has sigend an extension, he's obviously a required player. At this stage, and this is based on 2011's form, he would need to make significant improvement. He's not on his own, Green could easily be in that same category, but the difference between the two is that I believe Green will improve to his high standards in 2012, not as much confidence in Dunn, but as always, I'm happy to be proved wrong. Good luck LD, this season is one of the biggest you've had to face whilst being in the AFL system. If you want a long career as an AFL footballer, it's up to you to make it happen in 2012.

Sorry Big Jim Remember to grab a breath. Nearly passed out tryin to read this. (Just Joshing)

I thought they both played ok games. Danny frawley made a few unusual mistakes which isn't common for him and I think Dustin Martin isn't a great wet weather player as he couldn't hold onto a mark on Saturday night... Oh wait

Reality is Boss, that we need to have at least 3 player movements at the end of the year. At this stage of the year we'd all like to think that a player won't request a trade, but it does happen. What we do prefer is to look at who's contracted, who may retire (which Green is the only possible retirement, but I'm confident he'll earn another year), and lastly, who is most likely to struggle for form. While it is like trying to predict the lotto numbers, my assumption on the state of our list is that Dunn will need to step up in 2012, but I think it has to be a level that he is not capable of. I hope I'm wrong. That doesn't make him the whipping boy, it's just my observation.

Bloody hell another whipping boy. If we delisted all the players that demonlanders wanted gone, we would not have a team, and all this before a ball has been kicked in anger. I know every one has their opinion but wait till at least half way through the season before we sack the bloody lot of them.

In our wet dreams maybe. I'll be thankful to make the 8 this year. Top 5 is just wishful thinking.

I disagree. He's been an excellent President. Collingwood was almost as factionalised as Melbourne before he galvanised the club. What's more, he's still got unity more than a decade on. If you look at the demographic of their supporters that's no easy thing. He had the vision to leave Vic Park and create the Lexus centre. Before he took over Collingwood were almost broke and were selling houses in the vicinity of their ground. Basically, he's a doer. I'm not much interested in his media career and I'm not rapt in his politics, but I certainly admire his Presidency. He gets my grudging respect.

On the week end we had three blokes up forward 196cm+ and all three for their size are agile, quick and different type of players. If we have Martin, Clark and Watts up forward playing well there wouldn't be to many teams that could cover them. Saturday didn't suit them both the weather and our delivery but the three give us tall options. Add in Jurrah, Howe and Davey or Green, Sylvia and Blease or a mix of these and we have a very good forward structure that Martin we a key part off, he has a huge upside and potential

I'll put my hand up. If he had of pulled off that 5 baulk manouvre and kicked a goal we would be talking about how hard he is to match up on, how he has X factor, can play tall and has amazing agility for a bloke who is 6"6'. As it turned out he got close but no cigar - this time. Personally I want him forward with Clark, Watts and Jurrah. Could be fun

Which muppet put in 11? I have us for 4, with the Saints game being a possible.

I'll go for 3-8 0-11 is as likely as 6-5. I actually voted 4-7

Aussie was going to be our small forward for the next 5-10 years I watched the brisbane melbourne game from last year on fox and bloody hell he looked fit solid and quick and his skills and decision making were spot on. After watching that game two things stood out 1: Thank god we have Mitch clark he racked up that many touches against us 2: I bloody miss Aussie.

There was plenty to be pleased about on an evening played under shocking conditions. I thought both results could have gone either way but in reality, the results were pretty meaningless. I think the highlight for me was Aaron Davey in the first game showing that he isn't finished and that he hasn't lost his skills. He's still got a way to go but that was encouraging. Jack Grimes put in a few cameos that demonstrated how much we missed him after his injury last year. The class he showed at the end was worth hanging around a raindrenched Carrara for most of the day. The debutants all did well and one wonders how the Saints let James Magner slip under their noses. I like Tynan and Couch too but they could still be a way off and Clark is looking like a huge plus. Jack Fitzpatrick went fine in the ruck and given that Max Gawn and Jake Spencer are both on the LTI it's handy to know we have Jack on the list. Matthew Bate might well have reinvented himself as a midfielder. We still lack a class gamebreaking midfielder but the conditions on the evening didn't help our quest to unearth one. Gary Ablett Junior was the one class midfielder to stand out on the night. As AOB and others have stated, there's a new game plan at play here and it's going to take time for it to be perfected. Some might not be happy to have gone 1:1 with two of last year's lowly teams but that's not the point of these games. I think we're definitely moving in the right direction.

Just went to my lifeless suburban Tavern and found another Demon who didn't have Foxtel sitting up close to the flickering TV . We had a few ales and watched the scrappy game/s and found out we were cricket rivals in our comp . Anyway ,this guy ,who goes under the name of Stinga in 'ology is a fan of our site here and will join up soon .We might go to a few games together this year . His observation was that some of the Moderaters are immoderate and that there should be a little more freedom of expression here .I explained to him that we are not living in a democracy and that some opinions are more freely expressable than others .He lived near the Mortons in Richmond and said the Dad has some muscles .So there is hope in that dept .

Yes, I'm on auto renew... membership shouldn't be dependent purely on performance... it is supporting the club through thick and thin.

Another injury??He only came back last week! More sweat beads for Bucks....eddie may literally explode soon.

1. Get good coach 2. Get good assitant 3. Get good fitness dude 4. Get key forward 5. Upset Eddie Everything is going along beautifully

I agree. We might take a bit of a hit in the pocket a first but I'm pretty sick of the day being spoken about like it's a freakin' charity funraiser for us. Talk to Richmond, share it as a home game and tell those toothless scum they are not welcome on our ground that day.

Any danger of putting Dwayne up against a wall and shooting him? Would make a great one-off special.

or TAA?

Surely Port deserve one if they have an awful season. Stuck at the bottom through two compromised drafts as the two new clubs pick up all the guns.