30 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Oh dear, the old, "We would have won a flag had Brayshaw not been knocked out"

It's like reading a drunk Steven May at the best and fairest.

That same night Collingwood had no Nick Daicos playing who was an All Australian that same year as well as voted AFL Coaches Association Best Young Player.

Did Collingwood lose Daicos mid-game to a thug act? No? Not the same thing then.

I've never been one to subscribe to the idea that we let a premiership go begging in 22 or 23, but losing Brayshaw in the worst way possible midgame isn't the same thing as missing him for one game when you know ahead of time (like Daicos and Collingwood).

6 hours ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Goodwin won a flag and outside of 2019 we improved every year in the lead up to that flag.

We all know the reasons for 2019 with regard to who and the numbers who had impacted pre seasons.

22 and 23 were disappointing in the end but think we were cooked coming into September of 22 and in 23 whilst late injuries to Petty and Melksham impacted I think we shot ourselves in the foot with conversion

24 and 25 Goodwin probably remained to loyal and this fractured the group.

I have to laugh at those who don’t rate Goodwin, apparently Yze won us the flag as an assistant and Goodwin benefited

Sydney missed finals last year and now the team with the best ball movement has him as an assistant and funnily enough he is responsible for their ball movement

The CF and PFs of this site will never give him credit

Too sensible as usual mate.

6 hours ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Goodwin won a flag and outside of 2019 we improved every year in the lead up to that flag.

We all know the reasons for 2019 with regard to who and the numbers who had impacted pre seasons.

22 and 23 were disappointing in the end but think we were cooked coming into September of 22 and in 23 whilst late injuries to Petty and Melksham impacted I think we shot ourselves in the foot with conversion

24 and 25 Goodwin probably remained to loyal and this fractured the group.

I have to laugh at those who don’t rate Goodwin, apparently Yze won us the flag as an assistant and Goodwin benefited

Sydney missed finals last year and now the team with the best ball movement has him as an assistant and funnily enough he is responsible for their ball movement

The CF and PFs of this site will never give him credit

Objectively, Goodwin was a very good coach - especially as a game planner - I think to your point he fractured the group & was IMO, border line obnoxious in his unwillingness to commit 100% to a new way of playing & leaving the old behind (a defence first approach) - we moved the ball between the arcs but it was infuriating to watch players consistently take a ‘safe’ option rather than wholeheartedly take the game on - that’s what King has brought in.

No matter which way we spin it, there was too much that had occurred for that group of players to continue to be successful.

I do think though with the injury toll to Syndey last year, they were always going to bounce back - irrespective of who was tact onto the football department

I think kings focus is winning on the road & start winning interstate. Our last 2 interstate games haven't been great.

That's the next step in his coaching. Win on the road.

57 minutes ago, Chook said:

Did Collingwood lose Daicos mid-game to a thug act? No? Not the same thing then.

I've never been one to subscribe to the idea that we let a premiership go begging in 22 or 23, but losing Brayshaw in the worst way possible midgame isn't the same thing as missing him for one game when you know ahead of time (like Daicos and Collingwood).

Yeah completely disagree. These are the same Melbourne supporters that says we could have also won with Petty and Melksham. But yet the rule doesnt apply to Daicos? Lol..

Good sides actually find ways to overcome adversity in games whether thats losing a key member to injury or not. You can say it may have rattled them but where was the motivation and composure from the squad for the rest of that night? Speaks volume on the mentality of the playing group on the night and i am not putting the sole blame on the players but coaches as well. Did not once ever hear Goodwin take ownership for his part on this year and yet it took a rookie coach after the Essendon game this year to actually admit that he owned his part in the loss as well. What a breath of fresh air that was to hear.

We had more scoring shots then Collingwood at the end of the night and thats after we lost Brayshaw 5 minutes in. Fact.

We didnt flop the finals because of Brayshaw. We simply had all the chances in the world as well as the momentum in the laters stages in both the Carlton and Collingwood.

I'll tell you what cost us the 2023 finals series and it nothing to do with Brayshaw.

Fact ☝️

Edited 4 hours ago4 hr by dazzledavey36

1 minute ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Yeah completely disagree.

Good sides actually find ways to overcome adversity in games whether thats losing a key member to injury or not. You can say it may have rattled them but where was the motivation and composure from the squad for the rest of that night? Speaks volume on the mentality of the playing group on the night.

We had more scoring shots then Collingwood at the end of the night and thats after we lost Brayshaw 5 minutes in. Fact.

We didnt flop the finals because of Brayshaw. We simply had all the chances in the world as well as the momentum in the laters stages in both the Carlton and Collingwood.

I'll tell you what cost us the 2023 finals series and it nothing to do with Brayshaw.

Fact ☝️

Do you think I'm saying we should have won that game vs Collingwood? You're arguing against something I'm not even saying. I never said losing Brayshaw "cost us" the finals series. I'm saying it's not the same thing as losing a player pre-game for one game. Saying "good sides adapt" is just a platitude. It means nothing.

And besides, adapt to what? Being a man down on the bench? Losing formation in the backline? Losing composure delivering inside 50? Adapt to the hostile crowd from the Pies supporters? What precisely did Melbourne have to adapt to?

On a different topic, related sorta to this coming game, I'm going to bust a gut to get to training this week. No mean feat when I live over two hours from it in good traffic and I'm going for the Wednesday session....plus I'm not a morning person. But needs must.

6 hours ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Goodwin won a flag and outside of 2019 we improved every year in the lead up to that flag.

We all know the reasons for 2019 with regard to who and the numbers who had impacted pre seasons.

22 and 23 were disappointing in the end but think we were cooked coming into September of 22 and in 23 whilst late injuries to Petty and Melksham impacted I think we shot ourselves in the foot with conversion

24 and 25 Goodwin probably remained to loyal and this fractured the group.

I have to laugh at those who don’t rate Goodwin, apparently Yze won us the flag as an assistant and Goodwin benefited

Sydney missed finals last year and now the team with the best ball movement has him as an assistant and funnily enough he is responsible for their ball movement

The CF and PFs of this site will never give him credit

In the 2023 SF against Carlton we were missing Petty, Melk, JVR & to a lesser degree, Ben Brown. All staples in the Forward line when healthy. And Tommy Mac was on one leg up forward and really struggled ... had no impact. Zero shots at goal

Losing Brayshaw the week before meant that Petracca couldn't be used in the forward line as much (had one scoring shot) 28.34 for the season

That night Fritsch kicked 2.3, Kozzie 2.3, Gawn 0.2 along with 7 others scoring 0.1 each. The coach can't kick it for them. Any coach

Ironically, one of our substitute forwards kicked 3.0 in that SF against the Blues

As for 2024 & 2025, whatever changes Goodwin tried to implement, fell on deaf ears. We needed a new voice

Of course, Goodwin now overseas Sydney's purring offense

Edited 4 hours ago4 hr by Macca

18 hours ago, WERRIDEE said:

Howes plays on McDonald, Lever plays on Armartey, Turner on Curnow

B: Howes, Lever, Tholstrup

HB: Langdon, Turner, Jiath

C: Langford, Sparrow, Windsor

HF: Chandler, van Rooyen, Fritsch

F: Jefferson, Mihocek, Sharp

FOLL: Gawn, Steele, K.Pickett

IC: Taylor, Laurie, Cross, L.Pickett, Heath

EMERG: Henderson, Adams, Kentfield

Hey W

I always enjoy your teams and was thinking ( in line with my often stated opinion) that we need to select a side not only on our available but also on the structure and skills of the opposition. I also think we use the squad to rest some and expose some getting a full list that can be peaking at the end of the season (again based on the opposition)

SO

I was really pleased to see your match ups on the Key forwards.

how do you line up others on their likely opponents. Who takes Blaikey and Heeney. for exmple

Also how do we use our strengths to get best match ups and how will our structures work in the SFC.

I know I can look all this up and make an opinion but I have always valued yours and frankly find them much more informed than most. (and I reckon most would find mine less relevant)

So thanks for your past and continue in whatever form you like

6 minutes ago, Chook said:

Do you think I'm saying we should have won that game vs Collingwood? You're arguing against something I'm not even saying. I never said losing Brayshaw "cost us" the finals series. I'm saying it's not the same thing as losing a player pre-game for one game. Saying "good sides adapt" is just a platitude. It means nothing.

And besides, adapt to what? Being a man down on the bench? Losing formation in the backline? Losing composure delivering inside 50? Adapt to the hostile crowd from the Pies supporters? What precisely did Melbourne have to adapt to?

Serious? Maybe adapting to being more composed with ball in hand as well which then flows into us being able to kick accurately on the night. Go back and rematch those finals. We were a complete mess with our ball use and composure and it was a typical Goodwin style game.

Viney butchering that last kick in the Carlton final summed up our year.

No, I think it means a bit more then just "nothing"

AFL coaches harp on it a fair bit in being able to adapt in games or when momentum swings the other way or if you do lose a key player during games. Coaches and players train for different scenarios in games because you have gotta show as a team that you can adapt when challenged in game like we have under Steven King.

We have already proven we have gears to change when we have been challenged by the good teams this year.

Its only the Essendon game this year where I felt we were stagnate in our ability to change and shift momentum to our way when we were challenged.

I seem to have wandered into the "Is Simon Goodwin the right guy?" thread by mistake.

Can someone please direct me to the Swans pre match thread.

8 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Serious? Maybe adapting to being more composed with ball in hand as well which then flows into us being able to kick accurately on the night. Go back and rematch those finals. We were a complete mess with our ball use and composure and it was a typical Goodwin style game.

Viney butchering that last kick in the Carlton final summed up our year.

No, I think it means a bit more then just "nothing"

AFL coaches harp on it a fair bit in being able to adapt in games or when momentum swings the other way or if you do lose a key player during games. Coaches and players train for different scenarios in games because you have gotta show as a team that you can adapt when challenged in game like we have under Steven King.

We have already proven we have gears to change when we have been challenged by the good teams this year.

Its only the Essendon game this year where I felt we were stagnate in our ability to change and shift momentum to our way when we were challenged.

What you're actually asking for is to be better at playing football. You're pretty much saying "if we were better we would have won," which is exactly what I'm saying. Not having Brayshaw out there made us worse, not better. Adapting to that was something we could have done better, but you're saying his absence wasn't the reason we lost so it's moot. Adapting is changing something to suit a new situation or event. So again, what new situation or event did we specifically need to adapt to?

1 hour ago, Chook said:

Did Collingwood lose Daicos mid-game to a thug act? No? Not the same thing then.

I've never been one to subscribe to the idea that we let a premiership go begging in 22 or 23, but losing Brayshaw in the worst way possible midgame isn't the same thing as missing him for one game when you know ahead of time (like Daicos and Collingwood).

Spot on chook.

This post perfectly highlights the subtext of my post - everyone is entitled to their opinion, but they are not entitled to their own facts.

I'm a great believer that a great start to any debate, particularly a contentious one, is first establishing the set of agrreed facts.

Too often people blur fact and opinion, one reason why I so often preface comments with 'in my opinion'.

That the gus incident cost us a flag is an opinion, one you quite reasonably don't share.

But the fact is, as you point out Daicos did not play so the unlike the dees, the pies:

• Did not have to use their sub 10 mins into the game

• Could plan for Daicoss absence pre game, not in game as Goody and his tea had to do

• Did not have to deal with the trauma of having a much loved player brutally knocked out 10 mins into the game

They are all facts.

How those facts influenced the result of that game, and our chances of winning the flag, are a matter of opinion.

38 minutes ago, thirty-one said:

On a different topic, related sorta to this coming game, I'm going to bust a gut to get to training this week. No mean feat when I live over two hours from it in good traffic and I'm going for the Wednesday session....plus I'm not a morning person. But needs must.

Wednesday at Gosch’s is a 10am start, perfect for a non-morning person 😂

On 26/04/2026 at 17:49, Macca said:

If King prefers tall wingman who can take a mark and possess a bit of dash, then CJ could fill the bill if we want to keep Langdon & Kolt back.

His attacking nature would be less risky further afield. Failing that, Fritsch could be called upon. He's not too shabby overhead and his forward entries can be dynamic

And he could always drift forward as Langford does

Nailed it. Fitta will play wing

36 minutes ago, dpositive said:

Hey W

I always enjoy your teams and was thinking ( in line with my often stated opinion) that we need to select a side not only on our available but also on the structure and skills of the opposition. I also think we use the squad to rest some and expose some getting a full list that can be peaking at the end of the season (again based on the opposition)

SO

I was really pleased to see your match ups on the Key forwards.

how do you line up others on their likely opponents. Who takes Blaikey and Heeney. for exmple

Also how do we use our strengths to get best match ups and how will our structures work in the SFC.

I know I can look all this up and make an opinion but I have always valued yours and frankly find them much more informed than most. (and I reckon most would find mine less relevant)

So thanks for your past and continue in whatever form you like

I think we need to play to our structure before we play to Sydney's structure. It's easy to put McDonald in because he has a big body but is he an offensive weapon I don't think so. As I said I think Howes can play Lever's role and Lever can man up as a key along with Disco.

We have put games into plenty of players like Latrelle, Sharp, Taylor, Tholstrup and Jefferson. The only player we have not put time into is Moniz-Wakefield he will get his chance at some stage. The rest aren't ready at this stage.

I'd play Chandler on Blakey keep him accountable. Heeney if he plays pretty risky to play him 1 week after a calf injury. I'd alternate Tholstrup and Sparrow on him. Heeney is the one we have to stop, he's turned Sydney from a 5th to 8th team to a top 4 team. Sydney will be thinking the same with Kossie can't see Jordon keeping up with him though.

4 minutes ago, DemonWA said:

Nailed it. Fitta will play wing

Fritsch is already drifting out to the wing a bit anyway. Full time? He's got the necessary skills and his delivery forward is dynamic

It's going to be interesting to see what we do with Melk once he's fit again. His delivery forward can be low-flying & accurate as well

You always need a bit of X factor especially after losing Culley

Langdon to the back flank makes sense as well ... runs hard and can carry the ball well before distributing or off-loading

The need for speed from the midfield means that Langford gets to be used on the outside instead of as a mid. And he's adapting well

The sport has changed a lot from just last year

The ruck duels are now more of a tip-off to advantage. Win the ball and it's off to the races

31 minutes ago, Chook said:

What you're actually asking for is to be better at playing football. You're pretty much saying "if we were better we would have won," which is exactly what I'm saying. Not having Brayshaw out there made us worse, not better. Adapting to that was something we could have done better, but you're saying his absence wasn't the reason we lost so it's moot. Adapting is changing something to suit a new situation or event. So again, what new situation or event did we specifically need to adapt to?

Adapt also refers to a players or teams ability to adjust to rapidly changing circumstances, such as in-game tactical shifts, injuries etc.

Against Collingwood we were +32 for inside 50s yet we were only able to score 10% of our scores from those entries which is just incredible poor. Collingwood on the night scored 24% of there goals from there entries. Smashed them in contested possessions which was the trademark of our game.

That's the game right there. That proved that all night we were going with the same line of forward entries and we didnt adapt to at least cleaner entries to give our forwards better opportunities.

Those stats are damning and it was very evident earlier on that game.

The worse part? Showing up the following week against Catlton with the exact same identical method with x amount of chaotic forward entries which resulted in butchering our chances in front of goals.

So yeah, we didnt adapt at all.

2 hours ago, heath55 said:

Objectively, Goodwin was a very good coach - especially as a game planner - I think to your point he fractured the group & was IMO, border line obnoxious in his unwillingness to commit 100% to a new way of playing & leaving the old behind (a defence first approach) - we moved the ball between the arcs but it was infuriating to watch players consistently take a ‘safe’ option rather than wholeheartedly take the game on - that’s what King has brought in.

No matter which way we spin it, there was too much that had occurred for that group of players to continue to be successful.

I do think though with the injury toll to Syndey last year, they were always going to bounce back - irrespective of who was tact onto the football department

1 hour ago, Macca said:

In the 2023 SF against Carlton we were missing Petty, Melk, JVR & to a lesser degree, Ben Brown. All staples in the Forward line when healthy. And Tommy Mac was on one leg up forward and really struggled ... had no impact. Zero shots at goal

Losing Brayshaw the week before meant that Petracca couldn't be used in the forward line as much (had one scoring shot) 28.34 for the season

That night Fritsch kicked 2.3, Kozzie 2.3, Gawn 0.2 along with 7 others scoring 0.1 each. The coach can't kick it for them. Any coach

Ironically, one of our substitute forwards kicked 3.0 in that SF against the Blues

As for 2024 & 2025, whatever changes Goodwin tried to implement, fell on deaf ears. We needed a new voice

Of course, Goodwin now overseas Sydney's purring offense

Yep good points with both posts, just want to make it clear, the time was right for Goodwin to move, the playing group was fractured beyond repair without big changes. He tried to implement the quicker ball movement without really trusting the younger or role players enough

4 hours ago, picket fence said:

On that basis VFL park Waverley was 200 m X 200 m .... Monstrous Ground! Played there once and here's a fun fact for you Represented MFC in the Sunkick there and had a best kick of 61 m and an average of 54. Came second to a bloke who went and represented Hawks ... Brown. The other time I played there was a special. I kicked a couple of goals but sheeeeeeit Jahesssuss H Carrrrrryst IT WAS AN ENORMOUS ground, I was standing on the Half forward Flank and it seemed I was 100 m from goal and it looked like the other half of the grounds players had the bottom of their legs cut of looking at the other end. The other part that if found interesting is that there were 20 + showers in the rooms, I couldn't believe it!

Part of the reason that it was difficult to see across the ground, I guess as a player, but certainly as a spectator on the ground level was the curvature (?camber) of the ground. Not missed as a venue to watch footy.

3 hours ago, Chook said:

Did Collingwood lose Daicos mid-game to a thug act? No? Not the same thing then.

I've never been one to subscribe to the idea that we let a premiership go begging in 22 or 23, but losing Brayshaw in the worst way possible midgame isn't the same thing as missing him for one game when you know ahead of time (like Daicos and Collingwood).

I have heard with some authority that some of the players initially thought that their dear friend and team mate, Angus, was dead. Knocked the stuffing out of them mentally.

1 hour ago, 2029_brownlow_medalist said:

Interesting numbers - would be even more interesting if expressed as percentage of shots at goal

The last two on the list likely had far fewer shots than the first two.

5 hours ago, Queanbeyan Demon said:

The AFL's official playing surface dimensions are 149 × 136 m for the SCG, 160 × 141 m for the MCG. Treating both as ellipses gives areas of roughly 15,900 m² and 17,700 m² respectively . . . an 11% difference. Real, but not the chasm the discourse implies.

The Eastern wing is straighter, the members wing still a big wide expanse.

It takes 3 good kicks to get inside 50 going around the boundary at the SCG, same as the MCG.

It takes 2 good kicks to get straight up the guts. Probably why Sydney have devised a game plan around Blakey, Warner, McInerney and Heeney charging up the corridor.

4 hours ago, binman said:

Indeed.

I'd add, rate Goody or don't rate him, whilst opinion is by definition subjective, facts are facts and by definition objective. And these are the facts:

• Goody has coached 203 senior AFL games, winning 57% of those games

• Goody has coached 10 finals at a 50% win rate

• Goody has won a won a flag (at club that had not won one for 57 years)

• I've not checked, but I'm guessing historically those numbers put Goody in very rare air in terms of VFL/AFL senior coaches

• In the year before he got the senior coach gig, 2016, the dees won 10 games and finished with a percentage of 97

• In his first year of senior coaching, 2017, we won 12 games, and we finished ninth, with the equal number of points as the Bombers and Eagles who finished 7th and 8th respectively - missing finals by the smallest margin ever, 0.5%

• In 2017 Goody implemented a number of innovations, the most famous of which was the 'flying V' from half back that many believe was the driver for thw AFL bringing in the 6-6-6 rule

• In his second year, 2018, we won 14 games, finished 5th, had a percentage of 131.4 (remarkably, 3rd highest of any team) and made the prelim

• And before losing the prelim in 2018, Goody coached two finals wins (Cats and then Hawks at the G) that many dees fans who went, me included, rate as among the very best footy experiences of their lives

• In the back half of the 2018 season, we were widely considered to be playing the most exciting, aggressive footy in the AFL - much like the Swans and Dees this year, we were hyper aggressive with our ball movement and a hell of a lot of fun to watch

• Perhaps recognising he didn't have the player profile that game plan demanded to win a flag, he instead retooled his entire method and built a game plan famously underpinned by contest and defence, one that better suited our list profile, and in particular that of our very best players - Tracc, Clazz and Viney

• Yep, we went out in straight sets in 2022 and 2023, but we finished top 4 both seasons and if my memory serves me correctly, we set a club record (and possibly an AFL/VFL record?) for number of weeks in the top 4

• Goody has been appointed Director of Coaching and Performance at the Swans - that's fact, my opinion is that the Swans, a club widely respected, are exceedingly unlikely to have made that appointment if they didn't rate Goody very, very highly

• The Swans are playing a hyper aggressive ball movement that has the Swans playing high scoring, dominant football - that's fact, it's my opinion that logic suggest Goody has been a big driver of that model given he is responsible for 'team strategy, training implementation, and overall offense'

This is opinion, not fact but my view is if Brayshaw did not get knocked out against the Pies we win the flag in 2023.

And i also have the opinion the trauma from that event, and of Gus's subsequent forced retirement, had an extraordinary impact on the whole club and was massive factor in things unraveling from 2024.

Are you a librarian, stats person??😂

6 hours ago, binman said:

This is opinion, not fact but my view is if Brayshaw did not get knocked out against the Pies we win the flag in 2023.

And i also have the opinion the trauma from that event, and of Gus's subsequent forced retirement, had an extraordinary impact on the whole club and was massive factor in things unraveling from 2024.

Just because something can’t be tested doesn’t automatically reduce it to an opinion. It’s a counterfactual—but in this case, there’s pretty strong evidence behind it.

For me, it’s clear that Gus being knocked out profoundly impacted our club’s fortunes in the 2023 finals but then right up until the arrival of King. Interesting comment by King in his AFL360 interview tonight that one of his primary aims this year was "trying to improve the environment". Ouch.