Time to go Tim Lamb? Should we pursue Graham Wright?

[Demons1858 1,716]

l find alot of the the opinions in this thread to be unbalanced ... schache, billings, fullarton, hunter are cheap depth players for round 3 or 4 picks .. those picks don't typically make it and certainly aren't of any use for 3 or 4 years anyway if you go to the draft but we are in theory contending ... some say we didnt bring in a clear starting 22 player but to do that we need to swap some key picks and go without the likes of Kolt and Windsor which having seen them l am glad we picked them up ... mcadam is the one blemish but has time and we were desperate for a forward in trading periods where there aren't many available ... our issue is we lost depth in angus and smith, petty was average, and our 2 generational mids were both injured and not prepared ... no team copes without their 2 best mids

[Its Time for Another 4,085]

14 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

I suppose I'm "absolutely clueless" then.

Is it "clueless" to query Lamb's involvement, and therefore his overall performance, in the following:

1. The decisions to bring in McAdam, Fullarton, Billings and Schache? (I'd add Hunter too but, to be fair, his 2023 was good)
2. The balance of our midfield (i.e. did we go into 2024 with enough depth in terms of who can play midfield outside of Trac, Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw and Sparrow - when Gus went down, did we have enough cover?)
3. Players who appear to only have one role (e.g. what can Sparrow offer other than being a mid, and is that lack of flexibility appropriate given our planned reliance on Trac, Oliver and Viney as mainly mids going into 2024)?
4. The lack of instinctive key forwards on the list (leaving us to fashion key forwards out of key defenders in Petty and Turner)
5. The lack of any ruck depth
6. The decision to take a key forward in the mid-season draft when we had pressing issues in the midfield given what had happened to Gus and what was happening to Oliver
7. The decisions to re-contract players like Schache and Laurie before they had established themselves on-field - particularly given, as it turned out, Schache played one game all year (yes, this is hindsight, but wasn't exactly hard to foresee)

Nothing's black/white. People get measures on a whole host of metrics. Is it not possible that Lamb's done well in some regards (e.g. getting our core talent contracted through for years) but poorly in others?

Or are we all [censored] and only you guys get it?

Yep. Absolutely clueless.

Again just to clarify, Lamb is the List Manager, not the recruiter. Do you think he sits around all day at football grounds watching players. No, that's the recruiters job.  He identifies with the FD and the recruiters what holes there are in the "list"and then it's the recruiters job to go and find them.  It's not his fault if we don't have the salary cap space they are demanding, it's not his fault if they want to live on the Surf Coast, it's not his fault if their Club is demanding too much for a trade. 

Of course it's undeniable that our trading since Langdon has been a bust. Except Hunter who was ok last year and injured this year. Every player we have recruited in that time has filled in exactly the holes that have been identified. Obviously there haven't been key forwards out there. 

You have to turn over at least 6 list places a season. So what do you do experts suggest? Not recruit anyone because there's no one good enough or get someone in who can fill the role and get the FD's advice on whether they think they can work wth them to get the job done.

It's so easy  to run around on keyboards demanding people get sacked when they are probably excellent at what they do and some things aren't their fault. Graham Wright might have done a lot worse job. Who knows. 

As for your individual examples. McAdam was exactly what we needed and has shown he is extremely talented and plays small and tall. He was injured the entire pre season and over half of the season. It's way too early to make a judgment on recruiting him. Fullarton evidently has been a massive fail. But again he plays exactly the role we needed which was Lamb's job. It was the recruiters who found him and the FD who thought they could work with him. Billings had 3 brilliant seasons at the Saints and has been injured every season since. He was theoretically exactly what we needed a skilled deliverer i50. There was an expectation by many that he would be back to his best which is very good and just what we needed. It didn't work out that way. I wouldn't be sacking Lamb over these. 

Your point 2 is a bit ridiculous. Did we have enough depth when Brayshaw went down. If we knew Brayshaw was going down the list management would have been different. Plus Sparrow has IMO been the most disappointing player on the team this season. He was expected to step up into a full time midfield/onball role and went badly backwards. 

Your point 3. You don't seem to know your own team. Sparrow has spent a lot of time playing half forward not mifdield. .He was meant to step up this season on ball but was a bust a lot of the time .

Tell me an instinctive key forward out there we've missed out on that wanted to come to the club.

We tried to get Meek but no decent ruck is going to want to come to MFC and play at Casey. It wasn't for lack of trying.

I spoke to Goody about Laurie and he is very confident he is going to make it as a good player. Don't think you should sack Lamb over that one either.

Edited September 19 by Its Time for Another

[ANG13 2,002]

10 minutes ago, Its Time for Another said:

Except Hunter who was ok last year and injured this year.

You’re being very generous if you don’t think Hunter has been a bust. 

[drysdale demon 4,699]

On 18/09/2024 at 13:37, WERRIDEE said:

Hunter being sign for 2025 has stuffed up my list management. 4 draft picks 3 midfielders and a CHB. An experienced ruck during the trade period.

 

B: Lever, May, McVee

HB: Rivers, McDonald, Salem

C: Windsor, Pick 5, Langdon

HF: Petracca, Petty, Chandler

F: Fritsch, van Rooyen, Turner

FOLL: Gawn, Oliver, Viney

IC: Moniz-Wakefield, Sparrow, Tholstrup, McAdam, Melksham

 

Casey

B: Howes, Adams, Brown

HB: Bowey, Draft pick, Woewodin

C: Billings, Laurie, Hunter

HF: Spargo, Kentfield, Sestan

F: Yze, Jefferson, Fullerton

FOLL: Trade, Draft pick, Draft pick

IC: Mentha, Verrall

SUS: Pickett

Really.

[WERRIDEE 5,350]

16 hours ago, 58er said:

Is Pup now a back pocket?? 

I'd try him there. Hunter and Billings have to play on the wings so there is no other spot to play him.

[Cranky Franky 1,837]

17 hours ago, Its Time for Another said:

Yep. Absolutely clueless.

Again just to clarify, Lamb is the List Manager, not the recruiter. Do you think he sits around all day at football grounds watching players. No, that's the recruiters job.  

Think you are the only clueless one here. You have provided a litany of excuses for the failed players we traded to the Club.

You even seem to suggest it was no one's fault they recruited Fullarton to ruck when he can't actually ruck.

Our recent trading failures are abysmal, we have traded in players who cannot get a senior game. Shame on you for defending the indefensible.

[Its Time for Another 4,085]

On 18/09/2024 at 00:54, Cranky Franky said:

Geelong traded in Henry, Bowes, Stengle, Bruhn (not to mention Humphrey's & Mannagh both picked up for zilch)

Hawks traded in Meek, Ginnivan, Amon, Dambrosio

Dees traded in Dunstan, Schache, Hunter, Billings Fullarton McAdam

Spot the odd one out.

 

I asked a pretty simple question. Name players who could or would come to us not ones that wouldn't. And in the context of you giving examples that justify wanting to sack the list manager. You haven't done that. 

Henry wanted to go and play with his brother and live around Geelong, Bowes was a unique situation where they could absorb an absolutely ridiculous overpayment for an average player, Stengle we would never have taken on because of his off field issues and having been sacked by two teams (People like you would have been screaming for the List Manager to be sacked if we'd done that), Bruhn wanted to go live on the surf coast and wasn't what we needed at the time same with Humphries. Mannagh is a brilliant pick up. So sack the list manager because another team plucked one player out of the VFL.

We went hard for Meek but he didn't want to be playing at Casey behind Gawn, Ginnivan was a life long Hawks supporter and was desperate to go there, Amon was on a huge contract they could absorb as they had heaps of salary cap as a young team, D'Ambrosio has been a revelation, probably his best season of his career. I wouldn't have taken him on expose form before that. But yeh go ahead and sack the List Manager for that one.

 

2 hours ago, Cranky Franky said:

Think you are the only clueless one here. You have provided a litany of excuses for the failed players we traded to the Club.

You even seem to suggest it was no one's fault they recruited Fullarton to ruck when he can't actually ruck.

Our recent trading failures are abysmal, we have traded in players who cannot get a senior game. Shame on you for defending the indefensible.

We're having a discussion about why you want to sack the list manager. Thank Goodness you're not running the club we wouldn't have anyone there. They'd all be sacked even though other people have the role. 

They're not excuses they are explanations of why they got best available players for specific roles that had to be filled. I'm not denying the trading since Langdon has been a massive failure except for Hunter who was fine last year and we have to wait and see on McAdam once he's fully fit with a pre season under his belt  Fullarton has obviously been a bust. 

I'll wear your shame of not blaming the List Manager and demanding he be sacked for recruiters not finding better players. I don't know how it works but Jason Taylor obviously has an unbelievable touch for drafting, I don't know if he or others are responsible for trading. I think Kelly O'Donell is supposed to scout other teams or maybe that is for game day. If there is someone responsible for trading then they should be looked at being moved on. Unless it's Jason Taylor in which case they need help on the trading side 

[BAMF 4,119]

Great points It's Time.

The Brayshaw and Smith situations definitely made his job difficult. Smith would have been getting games this year. This was completely out of his hands. 

I don't attribute the loss of some key depth to him either as I feel that was driven by team selection and positions. Jordon, Grundy and to a lesser extent, Harmes would have been great this year. I would have loved Harmes to be fit and firing heading into the 2022 finals campaign, but feel he was disillusioned already by then and it was best to part ways.

I do think that he is ultimately responsible as the list manager for the players we brought in recently. I don't buy into the argument that the recruitment team should bare responsibility too. They have all been busts based on output in 2024 and I don't have any faith of better returns from them in 2025. 

Your posts have really made me think about which decisions in isolation have led me to this opinion. The answer is McAdams. A high price was paid and if he had been a B+ instead of a D then I would likely be thinking differently. 

It's not just that decision in isolation though is it? That combined with the other decision which are also busts add up.

[mo64 5,497]

On 19/09/2024 at 09:33, Demons1858 said:

l find alot of the the opinions in this thread to be unbalanced ... schache, billings, fullarton, hunter are cheap depth players for round 3 or 4 picks .. those picks don't typically make it and certainly aren't of any use for 3 or 4 years anyway if you go to the draft but we are in theory contending ... some say we didnt bring in a clear starting 22 player but to do that we need to swap some key picks and go without the likes of Kolt and Windsor which having seen them l am glad we picked them up ... mcadam is the one blemish but has time and we were desperate for a forward in trading periods where there aren't many available ... our issue is we lost depth in angus and smith, petty was average, and our 2 generational mids were both injured and not prepared ... no team copes without their 2 best mids

If our issues are so simple, why are we having an external review of the Football Department? Everything is rosey in your eyes.

At the very least, can you accept that we needed to bring in a mature aged ruckman who could physically compete at AFL level, in the event that Gawn got injured. Instead, we re-sign Schache to another year.

 

[Its Time for Another 4,085]

2 hours ago, mo64 said:

If our issues are so simple, why are we having an external review of the Football Department? Everything is rosey in your eyes.

At the very least, can you accept that we needed to bring in a mature aged ruckman who could physically compete at AFL level, in the event that Gawn got injured. Instead, we re-sign Schache to another year.

 

You're right but name the ruckman who was available and wanted to come to MFC that they missed.  They tried several but which ones would come to us after the Grundy debacle 

[Cranky Franky 1,837]

Apologists can come up with all the excuses they want.

Coaches get judged on wins.

Recruiters responsible for drafting & trading get judged on results.

Trading is supposed to improve the list not send it backwards. 3 years of disasters = an abject failure.

Heads should roll.

[mo64 5,497]

2 hours ago, Its Time for Another said:

You're right but name the ruckman who was available and wanted to come to MFC that they missed.  They tried several but which ones would come to us after the Grundy debacle 

Brynn Teakle would have been an ideal pick as a delisted free agent. North picked him up in the mid-season draft and did well as a 2nd ruck. 

[bing181 8,979]

6 hours ago, BAMF said:

I don't buy into the argument that the recruitment team should bare responsibility too.

Of course they're responsible. Tim Lamb isn't flying round the country watching state league matches and the head of recruiting is a member of the list management committee.

[bing181 8,979]

1 hour ago, Cranky Franky said:

Recruiters responsible for drafting & trading get judged on results.

That would be Jason Taylor and his team. 

[bing181 8,979]

8 hours ago, Its Time for Another said:

If there is someone responsible for trading then they should be looked at being moved on. Unless it's Jason Taylor in which case they need help on the trading side 

Agree with everything else but not this. Not all trades work out, and that's across the board. You only have to look at the number of players who have been cut in recent weeks who are onto their second or even third clubs.

The best scouts and recruiters in the world are perfectly capable of both picking duds and missing gems. No-one has a crystal ball.

[Its Time for Another 4,085]

2 hours ago, Cranky Franky said:

Recruiters responsible for drafting & trading get judged on results.

I see I finally convince you it's about recruiters finding players not List Managers .

That profile name certainly matches your posts. Well picked. 

[Its Time for Another 4,085]

2 hours ago, mo64 said:

Brynn Teakle would have been an ideal pick as a delisted free agent. North picked him up in the mid-season draft and did well as a 2nd ruck. 

Did he though. Below average in every stat. Only 5 hitouts average per game. 

 

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,381]

Does he cop heat for letting Grundy and Jordon go to Sydney to play in a grand final, for minimal compensation?

And yes I understand JJ was an unrestricted free agent on bugger all salary, but the facts remain that we did not value, appreciate and anticipate what an asset he was capable of being and that is the art of being a successful list manager.

Edited September 20 by Bring-Back-Powell

[Its Time for Another 4,085]

8 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Does he cop heat for letting Grundy and Jordon go to Sydney to play in a grand final, for minimal compensation?

And yes I understand JJ was an unrestricted free agent on bugger all salary, but the facts remain that we did not value, appreciate and anticipate what an asset he was capable of being and that is the art of being a successful list manager.

Oh come on this is starting to get ridiculous. Now it's the List Manager's fault who gets picked to play. JJ wasn't good enough to be in the top 22 or 23 last season.He went off badly. Lost his pace, decision making and skill also went right off. There were many players ahead of him. Having said that they didn't want him to leave and tried to get him to stay. He left because he wanted better opportunities. The penny dropped after failing at one club and he worked his [censored] off over the summer and came back physically transformed. Swans had an opening for his role. He's had a wonderful season. Who could have predicted that Sparrow would be so terrible this season. So blame it on the list manager. Seriously. 

As for Grundy. You can't be serious. We all know why he left. But yeh blame it on the list manager. We got the picks we got because Swans took over $700+K off our salary cap. We got an average pick 48 last year but we also got their 2nd round pick this year. 

[mo64 5,497]

5 minutes ago, Its Time for Another said:

Oh come on this is starting to get ridiculous. Now it's the List Manager's fault who gets picked to play. JJ wasn't good enough to be in the top 22 or 23 last season.He went off badly. Lost his pace, decision making and skill also went right off. There were many players ahead of him. Having said that they didn't want him to leave and tried to get him to stay. He left because he wanted better opportunities. The penny dropped after failing at one club and he worked his [censored] off over the summer and came back physically transformed. Swans had an opening for his role. He's had a wonderful season. Who could have predicted that Sparrow would be so terrible this season. So blame it on the list manager. Seriously. 

As for Grundy. You can't be serious. We all know why he left. But yeh blame it on the list manager. We got the picks we got because Swans took over $700+K off our salary cap. We got an average pick 48 last year but we also got their 2nd round pick this year. 

JJ wasn't terrible in 2023. He was starved of opportunities because we recruited Hunter, who was no better. It was a no brainer that JJ would leave on the back of that.

And you haven't addressed why we got Grundy in the first place. 

It's Taylor's job to scour the country for talent. It's the List Manager's job to talk to Player Agents about the availability of existing AFL players. As the List Manager, Lamb is the one who'd know what financial terms a player wants in order to get him to the club.

The acquisition of the failed recruits from other clubs is on Lamb in conjunction with Richardson and Goodwin.

[Its Time for Another 4,085]

1 hour ago, mo64 said:

JJ wasn't terrible in 2023. He was starved of opportunities because we recruited Hunter, who was no better. It was a no brainer that JJ would leave on the back of that.

And you haven't addressed why we got Grundy in the first place. 

It's Taylor's job to scour the country for talent. It's the List Manager's job to talk to Player Agents about the availability of existing AFL players. As the List Manager, Lamb is the one who'd know what financial terms a player wants in order to get him to the club.

The acquisition of the failed recruits from other clubs is on Lamb in conjunction with Richardson and Goodwin.

We'll have to agree to disagree on Jordan for the reasons I previously stated. Still got nothing to do with the list manager. But go ahead and continue to call for his sacking. 

The Grundy failure was down to one person and that wasn't the recruiters or list managers or Grundy. It was by his own admission Gawn who failed miserably to maintain his form as a forward from the previous two seasons. But again its a forum feel free to spout venom and call for sackings of the people who weren't responsible. There's an epidemic of that going on around here at the moment, 

Edited Saturday at 01:54 by Its Time for Another

[Adam The God 29,406]

Our supposed poor trading is overstated as Demonland opinions tend to swing to the extremes.

The clubs that are often compared to Melbourne more favourably like Hawthorn were bottom 4 and have not just won a flag. That fact needs to be acknowledged vis a vis TPP and available draft capital.

Hunter was a win in 2023. Billings was a low cost contributor in 2024. McAdam was a fail for 2024, but still has a year and another pre season to turn that around. Schache was cheap cover for Weideman. Not a great trade, but you win some, you lose some, and sometimes you get the strategy wrong. Schache may well have helped Turner develop at VFL by providing additional KPF cover - it's a little hard to measure as we don't know the behind the scenes strategy. While Fullarton was another cheap gamble, but that hasn't paid off. 

If you look at what we've had to play with, we haven't lost much except for list spots.

Would players like Chol and Meek have solved issues and list holes for us? Probably, but TPP comes into it, as does opportunity. Meek would have been coming to play VFL for 22 games this year. There is also the Grundy experience that was worth exploring and was moved on from quickly, but this would make it tougher to attract a Meek.

I'd be hoping JT and co would be able to pluck more McVee and Turner's, but their record is still pretty damn good.

I hear we're going pretty aggressively for certain players that I think would make us better, but not necessarily cost the world, so we'll just have to see how we go.

Edited Saturday at 04:18 by Adam The God

[waynewussell 4,872]

Oh sh**!, Geelong! That's what happens when your list management puts too much emphasis on retaining the old crew instead of investing in youth. Chris Scott should be sacked immediately, along with the coaching panel and the entire Board! 

[Its Time for Another 4,085]

3 hours ago, waynewussell said:

Oh sh**!, Geelong! That's what happens when your list management puts too much emphasis on retaining the old crew instead of investing in youth. Chris Scott should be sacked immediately, along with the coaching panel and the entire Board! 

And of course the list manager at the head of the list of sackings

[Cranky Franky 1,837]

2 hours ago, Its Time for Another said:

And of course the list manager at the head of the list of sackings

I'm starting to think you are Tim Lamb or maybe his brother.

3 years of carp trading that have made our list worse but hey it's all fine, nobody's fault, it couldn’t be helped, there was no one else available, you can't always get it right & my dog ate the homework

It's all good no problem & nothing to see here.