On 20/09/2024 at 00:48, Pennant St Dee said:

I think you heard what you wanted to hear 

I listened to Mitchell with Kane and Kings this morning and didn’t take it that way at all. He was more referencing the way the Hawks finished this year didn’t guarantee natural progression. Saying teams who were up in 2023 didn’t necessarily continue that trend in 2024.

Inline with trends referenced previous game styles and that is where we were used with other teams following suit. King a short time later went on to say teams would analyse Hawthorn, put work into them and also be bringing or emulating some of their game style in pre season 

Mitchell did mention that Melbourne's long kicking and contest and defence style has been taken over by teams that are handball happy (I'm not paraphrasing here) and are willing to take the opposition on with fast, ballistic and attacking footy (I'm paraphrasing a bit here).

 

 

Edited September 20, 2024Sep 20 by Bring-Back-Powell

  On 19/09/2024 at 18:10, 58er said:

Really this is la la land rubbish. 
si extent judge our Coach by the thoughts and judgement of our opposition supporters. 

Good luck with that logic it’s got about the same credibility as words out of a certain person who lead the USA and now wants the world to have a second dose of his Bul…t. 

Are you Whoopi Goldberg or Robert De Niro?

  On 20/09/2024 at 01:09, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Mitchell did mention that Melbourne's long kicking and contest and defence style has been taken over by teams that are handball happy (I'm not paraphrasing here) and are willing to take the opposition on with fast, ballistic and attacking footy (I'm paraphrasing a bit here).

 

 

Yet his hand ball happy, fast paced game came unstuck when a team applied serious heat at the contest. The Pies flag was equivalent to Stephen Bradbury’s gold medal. I remain wholly unconvinced by the Hawks/Pies game plan. Finals don’t roll like that. I’m not saying we can’t improve our style but any change needs to have finals style heat  as its cornerstone. 

Edited September 20, 2024Sep 20 by Roost it far

  On 20/09/2024 at 01:09, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Mitchell did mention that Melbourne's long kicking and contest and defence style has been taken over by teams that are handball happy (I'm not paraphrasing here) and are willing to take the opposition on with fast, ballistic and attacking footy (I'm paraphrasing a bit here).

 

 

But it’s not having a dig, it’s a change in trend, the game continually evolves and at times reverts back to slower , chaos, handball high, all different trends

  On 20/09/2024 at 03:58, Pennant St Dee said:

But it’s not having a dig, it’s a change in trend, the game continually evolves and at times reverts back to slower , chaos, handball high, all different trends

And had we won the flag last year, 'the trend' might have gone in a different direction, but since it was successful for Collingwood, faster ball movement and transition footy became the 2024 norm.

Whoever wins this year will be similarly picked apart and influential heading into 2025.

I think the trick from a coaching and strategy stand point is being able to predict the upcoming trend and be ahead of the curve.

Goody has been there before. In 2017-2018 (era 1) and again in 2021-2023 (era 2). It almost won us two flags in the latest era.

Mitchell has talked a bit about this 'playing a game style that stands up in 5 years time' or whatever since he took over. I'm not that convinced he's as good strategically as others seem to think, but time will tell. As you imply, you can't predict the game in 5 years time and if he has predicted it, he seems to be playing a contemporary style now.

I think we need new ideas around Goody though, new strategy, but he's shown that he can constantly reshape the way we play, based around the fundamental pillar of contest. I feel adding 'the defence' to 'contest' happened in era 2. Now that footy is going towards offence and offensive power, Goody era 3 will likely use contest and ideally more attack. 

2024 was spent working out exactly who could play the faster transition turnover game from the back half and ironically, it actually seemed to have less emphasis on contest and stoppage, and more on intercept and defence.

I'm sure we've learned a lot from 2024 though. If we can add in the ball winning power of a fit Clarry and Trac to 2025, plus some unknown x factor from the draft (I'm hoping we get 3 picks inside 25), we can completely transform our style next year to offence and contest. If we want to.

This bit's probably for another thread, but I'd be looking for speed (Jagga Smith and Connor Hynes), power (Sam Lalor and Hynes) and ball use (Smith, Lalor and Langford). These alongside Windsor, Kolt, McVee and even AMW is a different Melbourne with Clarry and Viney extracting with chop outs from Trac and Trac inside 50.

And finally, all of this is not to say that Goody shouldn't or won't value defence, but I think blind Freddy can see the scales have tipped in the offensive direction (from midway through 2022 onwards), so if we're going to be a more defensive team, he's going to have to work out what that next trend is in the game and use it to stop the ball movement of the faster transition sides.

I actually think a key to this is what we do at stoppages with our numbers. What would our game style look like if we added numbers to the stoppage to outnumber? Doesn't mean we can't use our wingers creatively to sure up defence or provide cover for more advanced half backs. If we can get more chances from dangerous areas than our opponent and convert them, will that be the winning formula?

Anyway, in case it wasn't obvious, I back Goody.

Edited September 20, 2024Sep 20 by Adam The God

  On 20/09/2024 at 03:33, Roost it far said:

. I remain wholly unconvinced by the Hawks/Pies game plan. Finals don’t roll like that. I’m not saying we can’t improve our style but any change needs to have finals style heat  as its cornerstone. 

Great call on what is finals footy and flag winning. It ain't the hawks current style. Will win enough games to make the  8 but that's it

  On 19/09/2024 at 13:43, Wizard of Koz said:

goodwin is a fantastic coach. A gun player in his time too. 

And discussed as the Crows best ever on field leader

  On 19/09/2024 at 18:10, 58er said:

Really this is la la land rubbish. 
si extent judge our Coach by the thoughts and judgement of our opposition supporters. 

Good luck with that logic it’s got about the same credibility as words out of a certain person who lead the USA and now wants the world to have a second dose of his Bul…t. 

Hopefully, we will eat the Cats and the Dogs (a'la R.1) again next year. 

  On 20/09/2024 at 03:33, Roost it far said:

Yet his hand ball happy, fast paced game came unstuck when a team applied serious heat at the contest. The Pies flag was equivalent to Stephen Bradbury’s gold medal. I remain wholly unconvinced by the Hawks/Pies game plan. Finals don’t roll like that. I’m not saying we can’t improve our style but any change needs to have finals style heat  as its cornerstone. 

Yes we have to kick more goals whilst still applying defensive pressure 

  On 20/09/2024 at 05:13, Adam The God said:

And had we won the flag last year, 'the trend' might have gone in a different direction, but since it was successful for Collingwood, faster ball movement and transition footy became the 2024 norm.

Whoever wins this year will be similarly picked apart and influential heading into 2025.

I think the trick from a coaching and strategy stand point is being able to predict the upcoming trend and be ahead of the curve.

Goody has been there before. In 2017-2018 (era 1) and again in 2021-2023 (era 2). It almost won us two flags in the latest era.

Mitchell has talked a bit about this 'playing a game style that stands up in 5 years time' or whatever since he took over. I'm not that convinced he's as good strategically as others seem to think, but time will tell. As you imply, you can't predict the game in 5 years time and if he has predicted it, he seems to be playing a contemporary style now.

I think we need new ideas around Goody though, new strategy, but he's shown that he can constantly reshape the way we play, based around the fundamental pillar of contest. I feel adding 'the defence' to 'contest' happened in era 2. Now that footy is going towards offence and offensive power, Goody era 3 will likely use contest and ideally more attack. 

2024 was spent working out exactly who could play the faster transition turnover game from the back half and ironically, it actually seemed to have less emphasis on contest and stoppage, and more on intercept and defence.

I'm sure we've learned a lot from 2024 though. If we can add in the ball winning power of a fit Clarry and Trac to 2025, plus some unknown x factor from the draft (I'm hoping we get 3 picks inside 25), we can completely transform our style next year to offence and contest. If we want to.

This bit's probably for another thread, but I'd be looking for speed (Jagga Smith and Connor Hynes), power (Sam Lalor and Hynes) and ball use (Smith, Lalor and Langford). These alongside Windsor, Kolt, McVee and even AMW is a different Melbourne with Clarry and Viney extracting with chop outs from Trac and Trac inside 50.

And finally, all of this is not to say that Goody shouldn't or won't value defence, but I think blind Freddy can see the scales have tipped in the offensive direction (from midway through 2022 onwards), so if we're going to be a more defensive team, he's going to have to work out what that next trend is in the game and use it to stop the ball movement of the faster transition sides.

I actually think a key to this is what we do at stoppages with our numbers. What would our game style look like if we added numbers to the stoppage to outnumber? Doesn't mean we can't use our wingers creatively to sure up defence or provide cover for more advanced half backs. If we can get more chances from dangerous areas than our opponent and convert them, will that be the winning formula?

Anyway, in case it wasn't obvious, I back Goody.

Great post. 

Goodwin has the cattle and at the very least we should be playing Prelims with Gawn and May both playing. Our spine is tall and good with the ball: both Petty and JVR are good by foot and at ground level, May can kick a bullet pass and Gawn is Stynes-esque with his smarts and clearance ability. 

My biggest gripe with Goodwin is that he seems to need everything to go his way; the likes of Longmuire, Fagan, Scott, and even Hinkley still find a way to content through controversy and list impact (injuries etc.). 2019 and 2020 are big blemishes for mine and in my view you don't "contend" unless you make a Prelim and we choked in 22 and 23. I reckon Scott still gets the Cats to the Prelim in those seasons under the same circumstances. That said, losing Petracca, an underdone Oliver, going periods without May and Lever... 2024's outcome is not surprising.

Prelim in 25 is my pass mark for Goodwin. I can let 2024 slide because we were really up against it both on and off field. And you could maybe argue we even over performed considering. So maybe 2024 was the season Goodwin needed to have. Kind of like 2015 for Geelong and Scott.

  On 20/09/2024 at 11:55, praha said:

Great post. 

Goodwin has the cattle and at the very least we should be playing Prelims with Gawn and May both playing. Our spine is tall and good with the ball: both Petty and JVR are good by foot and at ground level, May can kick a bullet pass and Gawn is Stynes-esque with his smarts and clearance ability. 

My biggest gripe with Goodwin is that he seems to need everything to go his way; the likes of Longmuire, Fagan, Scott, and even Hinkley still find a way to content through controversy and list impact (injuries etc.). 2019 and 2020 are big blemishes for mine and in my view you don't "contend" unless you make a Prelim and we choked in 22 and 23. I reckon Scott still gets the Cats to the Prelim in those seasons under the same circumstances. That said, losing Petracca, an underdone Oliver, going periods without May and Lever... 2024's outcome is not surprising.

Prelim in 25 is my pass mark for Goodwin. I can let 2024 slide because we were really up against it both on and off field. And you could maybe argue we even over performed considering. So maybe 2024 was the season Goodwin needed to have. Kind of like 2015 for Geelong and Scott.

You could argue 2023 was the season Scott also needed to have. He failed to make finals having just won a flag. This is the thing, it's incredibly difficult to do what Goody did and back up three years in a row and finish top 4. McRae has just failed to make finals after winning a flag too.

Yeah, I think we did lack composure in front of goal in the finals last year, but that's not on Goody. We generated enough opportunities and in the QF, guys like McDonald and Fritta who are usually beautiful kicks, missed sitters they would normally dob, and would certainly dob on dry nights. The Carlton match saw a lack of composure and execution from many of our leaders, including Max and Lever. Again, not on Goody IMV.

It just didn't go our way, but Goody has shown he likes continuity, because that is how you form cohesion in elite sport. It took half way through 2022 for Collingwood's new game style to click, before that they were a rabble. Likewise, Carlton in 2023. And there are numerous other examples.

I think missing finals after being top 4 three years in a row will drive the playing group and light a fire under them. Healthy stuff.

So better pre seasons for all our key players, get some more youthful exuberance and talent in the door, and pair it all with a new look game style that still focuses on contest, but brings something different offensively or defensively (or both), and we're cooking IMO. We'll also have a softer draw.

  On 20/09/2024 at 11:55, praha said:

Great post. 

Goodwin has the cattle and at the very least we should be playing Prelims with Gawn and May both playing. Our spine is tall and good with the ball: both Petty and JVR are good by foot and at ground level, May can kick a bullet pass and Gawn is Stynes-esque with his smarts and clearance ability. 

My biggest gripe with Goodwin is that he seems to need everything to go his way; the likes of Longmuire, Fagan, Scott, and even Hinkley still find a way to content through controversy and list impact (injuries etc.). 2019 and 2020 are big blemishes for mine and in my view you don't "contend" unless you make a Prelim and we choked in 22 and 23. I reckon Scott still gets the Cats to the Prelim in those seasons under the same circumstances. That said, losing Petracca, an underdone Oliver, going periods without May and Lever... 2024's outcome is not surprising.

Prelim in 25 is my pass mark for Goodwin. I can let 2024 slide because we were really up against it both on and off field. And you could maybe argue we even over performed considering. So maybe 2024 was the season Goodwin needed to have. Kind of like 2015 for Geelong and Scott.

And if we are say 1 -7 after 8 games?

  On 20/09/2024 at 11:55, praha said:

Great post. 

Goodwin has the cattle and at the very least we should be playing Prelims with Gawn and May both playing. Our spine is tall and good with the ball: both Petty and JVR are good by foot and at ground level, May can kick a bullet pass and Gawn is Stynes-esque with his smarts and clearance ability. 

My biggest gripe with Goodwin is that he seems to need everything to go his way; the likes of Longmuire, Fagan, Scott, and even Hinkley still find a way to content through controversy and list impact (injuries etc.). 2019 and 2020 are big blemishes for mine and in my view you don't "contend" unless you make a Prelim and we choked in 22 and 23. I reckon Scott still gets the Cats to the Prelim in those seasons under the same circumstances. That said, losing Petracca, an underdone Oliver, going periods without May and Lever... 2024's outcome is not surprising.

Prelim in 25 is my pass mark for Goodwin. I can let 2024 slide because we were really up against it both on and off field. And you could maybe argue we even over performed considering. So maybe 2024 was the season Goodwin needed to have. Kind of like 2015 for Geelong and Scott.

Fagan and Hinkley have never won a flag, whilst Longmire is 1-4 in Grand Finals. 

If Goody had their records, he’d be criticised for it - the same way he’s criticised for the last two years’ of finals failure (how many on here bite back the moment someone says we finished top 4 those two seasons?).

Also you go on to acknowledge that we overperformed this year - doesn’t that show you that Goody can indeed coach when things go against him?

  On 21/09/2024 at 01:12, titan_uranus said:

Fagan and Hinkley have never won a flag, whilst Longmire is 1-4 in Grand Finals. 

If Goody had their records, he’d be criticised for it - the same way he’s criticised for the last two years’ of finals failure (how many on here bite back the moment someone says we finished top 4 those two seasons?).

Also you go on to acknowledge that we overperformed this year - doesn’t that show you that Goody can indeed coach when things go against him?

Yes my point being I guess that this was an important learning year for him. 

I still think it's crazy and a failure we didn't make a Prelim in 22 or 23.

  On 21/09/2024 at 09:39, praha said:

Yes my point being I guess that this was an important learning year for him. 

I still think it's crazy and a failure we didn't make a Prelim in 22 or 23.

You're very right sir.

All we are asking is win one F final, gets you to a PF.

  On 21/09/2024 at 01:12, titan_uranus said:

Fagan and Hinkley have never won a flag, whilst Longmire is 1-4 in Grand Finals. 

If Goody had their records, he’d be criticised for it - the same way he’s criticised for the last two years’ of finals failure (how many on here bite back the moment someone says we finished top 4 those two seasons?).

Also you go on to acknowledge that we overperformed this year - doesn’t that show you that Goody can indeed coach when things go against him?

Goodwin is 0-4 in finals since 21.

  On 20/09/2024 at 23:31, picket fence said:

And if we are say 1 -7 after 8 games?

Well picket it’s better than 0 - 8 but if we get a decent run at the preseason, we have a full list and don’t have a massive injury list we will think that 4 -4 is poor.

  On 20/09/2024 at 23:31, picket fence said:

And if we are say 1 -7 after 8 games?

Goneski. 

  On 21/09/2024 at 09:58, ElDiablo14 said:

Goodwin is 0-4 in finals since 21.

Oh is he?

I was completely unaware…

  On 21/09/2024 at 09:58, ElDiablo14 said:

Goodwin is 0-4 in finals since 21.

To be fair, the Pope is also a catholic.

  On 21/09/2024 at 09:39, praha said:

Yes my point being I guess that this was an important learning year for him. 

I still think it's crazy and a failure we didn't make a Prelim in 22 or 23.

I'm fairly confident if we'd made a prelim in 2022 or 2023 but lost it, the line would be "we failed to even make a Grand Final".

The bar is always set differently on here for Goody as compared to any other coach.

  On 21/09/2024 at 09:58, ElDiablo14 said:

Goodwin is 0-4 in finals since 21.

No [censored]. I said that in the post.

We all know that we failed in 2022-23. 

The question for you is how much worse is that failure than Geelong winning just one final, and not even qualifying in the other year, in their two post-flag seasons. 

Remembering, too, that Collingwood didn't make the finals at all this year.

I reckon Goody would be criticised on here if he had Scott's prelim final record of 3-6, which is 2-6 since the 2011 flag.

  On 20/09/2024 at 23:31, picket fence said:

And if we are say 1 -7 after 8 games?

What the hell does that mean? Why would we be? We won't be and it us a ridiculous post.

  On 21/09/2024 at 09:39, praha said:

Yes my point being I guess that this was an important learning year for him. 

I still think it's crazy and a failure we didn't make a Prelim in 22 or 23.

Gee, I would never have guessed that you, and some others, thought that. I had no idea that some people considered that we were disappointing in the finals in 22 and 23. 
 

Here an idea: Why don't you, and other likeminded posters, bring it to our attention by mentioning it about 20 times per page on each and every thread on this site? But make sure that you don't mention the losing margins in the finals last year, or the injury list, or the poor kicking for goal by a number of generally reliable players....

  On 21/09/2024 at 11:55, Ollie fan said:

Gee, I would never have guessed that you, and some others, thought that. I had no idea that some people considered that we were disappointing in the finals in 22 and 23. 
 

Here an idea: Why don't you, and other likeminded posters, bring it to our attention by mentioning it about 20 times per page on each and every thread on this site? But make sure that you don't mention the losing margins in the finals last year, or the injury list, or the poor kicking for goal by a number of generally reliable players....

Can you stop making excuses please…

You’ve been doing it for weeks now 

  On 21/09/2024 at 12:41, Sir Why You Little said:

Can you stop making excuses please…

You’ve been doing it for weeks now 

But as you and I both know Goodwin acolytes hate facts! Who gives a fat rats clacker about excuses, facts and facts only should be the only narrative.

Fact,we have not won a final since 21

Fact, other teams cover key players,we dont.

Fact, skill errors come back to coaching under pressure condtions.

Fact , our recruiting of NQR players from other clubs is deplorable,

Fact, we lost to West Coast.. WEST COAST.. SERIOUSLY???

Fact, we finished 14th this year.

Don't know about you but serious questions need to be asked and I'm happy to ask them at the AGM.

Final fact, Simon Goodwin is coaching for his career at Melbourne in 2025

Edited September 21, 2024Sep 21 by picket fence