Time to go Goody?

[Adam The God 29,291]

6 hours ago, Ollie fan said:

The Goodwin detractors operate on several assumptions which I believe to be wrong.

 

The first is that seasons 2022 and 2023  were a complete fail. Sure, I was not happy that we went out in straight sets in both of them, but to be top four in each was a real achievement - compare Richmond in 2021, Geelong in 2023, and now Collingwood. And particularly in 2023, there were good reasons - the injuries to 2/3 or more of our forward line made it almost impossible to succeed, and all credit to everyone involved for how close we came.

 

The second assumption is that because we have eg the best ruckman in the comp, we should win every hitout; because we have a great midfield we should win every clearance, etc.. It only has to be said for the fallacy to be obvious.

 

Then there is the assumption that there are, eg, good ruckmen around who would be prepared to come to the club and spend the vast bulk of the year at Casey in order to replace Max if he goes down for a short or a long period. Such palyers are in very short supply. And we don't have 'lifestyle" to offer a la Geelong, and the come-home factor for Victorians is shared with many other clubs.

 

Finally, there is a lot of criticism of Goody for not changing to a game plan of speed and skill. In short, our list was built for defence and contest. In 2011-2012, Neeld was given a list built for pace and skill and tried to turn it into a hard defensive team - with predictably disastrous results. To do this in reverse would be equally disastrous. Goody has tried to change the game plan up a bit this year, with mixed results, but why should we? Our game is contest and defence and it is still effective despite the injuries that we now have- getting so close to Brisbane, GWS and Port Adelaide, all genuine contenders, shows that. Some people say it is dull and boring. That is a matter of taste - personally, I love a hard, defensive game and absolutely hate a boring goalfest a la basketball. And what I absolutely love is to go along and see us being competitive, even when we are expected to lose by 10 goals as we were against Port. Yes, there have been a few very poor performances this year, but generally we have turned up to play and have shown some spirit. After decades of watching games with only the hope that I might see a glimmer for the future, this is now a real pleasure.

Great post.

[Fork 'em 6,938]

On 12/08/2024 at 21:45, old55 said:

Just like how Kozzy went to Port and Petty went to Adelaide eh?

Refer the Nibbler requests trade thread.

Edited August 13 by Fork 'em

[old55 22,753]

1 minute ago, Fork 'em said:

Refer the Nibbler wants out thread.

Personal circumstances - he clearly iterated that he loves the club and "the man and father it has made him". Clearly the coach has been a big part of this.

[Ted Lasso 18,739]

Without speaking to the results of the review before it happens i'd be absolutely shocked if Goody was under any pressure at all to retain his position internally. 

if we go all in on a flag, trade away our draft picks and miss the 8 in 2025, then i am sure the conversation will be had. 

[Watson11 2,195]

12 minutes ago, Ted Lasso said:

Without speaking to the results of the review before it happens i'd be absolutely shocked if Goody was under any pressure at all to retain his position internally. 

if we go all in on a flag, trade away our draft picks and miss the 8 in 2025, then i am sure the conversation will be had. 

I personally think the review should be a Collingwood 2017 style review but that will never happen with Pert.  Goody won't be going anywhere, and he can't be solely blamed for areas we have been deficient in like our poor list management since 2021, medical/fitness issues where we are fading every season and playing injured players, off-field distractions at the board level etc.  But he and the coaches need to be reviewed as well.

After winning a flag coaches often get an extended run at it for 5 or 6 years minimum.  Goody deserves the same.  But coaches almost never win a second flag at the same club if there is a 5 or 6+ year gap.  I think Sheedy and Chris Scott are the only ones to do it in the history of the game, and they both contended by making prelims during that 5 or 6 year period so were not far away.  So if a rebuild is needed Goody may not be the best person to do it.

I have no idea why it is so hard to rebuild.  Maybe coaches are too loyal to the original players that won the flag.  Maybe other coaches focus on your gameplan and so if you don't adapt you get passed.  Who knows.

[Ted Lasso 18,739]

5 minutes ago, Watson11 said:

I personally think the review should be a Collingwood 2017 style review but that will never happen with Pert.  Goody won't be going anywhere, and he can't be solely blamed for areas we have been deficient in like our poor list management since 2021, medical/fitness issues where we are fading every season and playing injured players, off-field distractions at the board level etc.  But he and the coaches need to be reviewed as well.

After winning a flag coaches often get an extended run at it for 5 or 6 years minimum.  Goody deserves the same.  But coaches almost never win a second flag at the same club if there is a 5 or 6+ year gap.  I think Sheedy and Chris Scott are the only ones to do it in the history of the game, and they both contended by making prelims during that 5 or 6 year period so were not far away.  So if a rebuild is needed Goody may not be the best person to do it.

I have no idea why it is so hard to rebuild.  Maybe coaches are too loyal to the original players that won the flag.  Maybe other coaches focus on your gameplan and so if you don't adapt you get passed.  Who knows.

It's a really good point, i saw another poster saying earlier that if you reverse our close losses, we're sitting second this season despite our poor statistical profile, injuries to key players and patchy form. I can see why coaches would look at that and think a lot is going right and if we get players fit and healthy we can compete again, i still think if not for the Petracca injury we would be playing finals this season. 

I really hope we don't trade our pick 6 though, it seems clear that we need to continue to add top end young talent into the list so that we can remain competitive long term. 

[Deemania since 56 6,547]

On 12/08/2024 at 21:54, Binmans PA said:

This is not really true though. Maybe in season it can be true for periods, although we've changed it up a number of times this year, for example.

But it's certainly untrue from year to year.

In 2017-2018, we played some of the most attacking football in the league. We scored 155 more points than minor premier Richmond in 2018 FFS! We scored comfortably 200 more points than the next closest that year.

Are people being deliberately disingenuous or have they just got dementia?

'disingenuous' and 'demented', no, not at all. Just analytical. 

[spirit of norm smith 15,056]

We need Goody to stay. Someone has to stay !!! 

[Adam The God 29,291]

22 minutes ago, Deemania since 56 said:

'disingenuous' and 'demented', no, not at all. Just analytical. 

Factually not true though that Goody doesn't change things. He started as an extremely attacking coach and has reverted to defence, and won a flag and had 3 top 4 finishes. It'll be hard to move away from that, but maybe a lowly finish like 2024 will shift the dial towards more attack.

[FreedFromDesire 583]

Whilst I personally have my own issues with Goodwin-centric things (mainly around game style and selection), to me the reality is the things he continually gets the blame for are more a team responsibility and we often get a bit sucked into blaming one person because it's obvious and easy.

The reality is, even the things I'm unhappy with, are the responsibility of a team of coaches, and I believe what we perceive purely as Goodwin's performance has been more reflective of the performance of that group and whether we've had the right strengths around him. Personally I feel at the moment we're lacking a game plan/strategy expert.

If you notice also on game day, Goodwin is more responsible for messaging and strategy and instructional coaching is more run from up in the coach's box (you may have noticed on the weekend when Clarry came off after his horror session in the backline he immediately got on the phone rather than have a big chat with Goody).

Then there's wider issues, which I won't go into one by one, but they basically come down to football performance, and we have a specific person in charge of that in Alan Richardson.

So, long story short(ish), I think we should be focusing our attention wider than just purely Goodwin. That's not to save him from criticism, but it's just the reality of how the coaching setup works. It really is more of a team, even though often the focus goes on the one person as head coach.

I would hope this offseason, post the current review, there is significant enough change in the football department that we get the best mix of people and skills in and around Goodwin again.

[Adam The God 29,291]

11 minutes ago, FreedFromDesire said:

Whilst I personally have my own issues with Goodwin-centric things (mainly around game style and selection), to me the reality is the things he continually gets the blame for are more a team responsibility and we often get a bit sucked into blaming one person because it's obvious and easy.

The reality is, even the things I'm unhappy with, are the responsibility of a team of coaches, and I believe what we perceive purely as Goodwin's performance has been more reflective of the performance of that group and whether we've had the right strengths around him. Personally I feel at the moment we're lacking a game plan/strategy expert.

If you notice also on game day, Goodwin is more responsible for messaging and strategy and instructional coaching is more run from up in the coach's box (you may have noticed on the weekend when Clarry came off after his horror session in the backline he immediately got on the phone rather than have a big chat with Goody).

Then there's wider issues, which I won't go into one by one, but they basically come down to football performance, and we have a specific person in charge of that in Alan Richardson.

So, long story short(ish), I think we should be focusing our attention wider than just purely Goodwin. That's not to save him from criticism, but it's just the reality of how the coaching setup works. It really is more of a team, even though often the focus goes on the one person as head coach.

I would hope this offseason, post the current review, there is significant enough change in the football department that we get the best mix of people and skills in and around Goodwin again.

I completely agree.

I wonder if we could get a ball movement coach who doubles as a strategy coach.

[FreedFromDesire 583]

2 minutes ago, Binmans PA said:

I completely agree.

I wonder if we could get a ball movement coach who doubles as a strategy coach.

Absolutely. I don't know a lot about the assistants available/around, it seems all of them are "highly rated" when you read any stories so who knows? I think with us being linked to Houston and Cumming it seems we've identified that kicking skills will be important, so I guess that's a good sign in terms of ball movement.

Any thoughts on who would be a good, potentially available, assistant with those strengths?

[Adam The God 29,291]

3 minutes ago, FreedFromDesire said:

Absolutely. I don't know a lot about the assistants available/around, it seems all of them are "highly rated" when you read any stories so who knows? I think with us being linked to Houston and Cumming it seems we've identified that kicking skills will be important, so I guess that's a good sign in terms of ball movement.

Any thoughts on who would be a good, potentially available, assistant with those strengths?

If he hadn't already been with us, I'd say Jennings, but he's obviously at GWS.

Leppitsch would be a great get given he's strategy at Collingwood. That would be some good offensive IP.

Or conversely, we move McQualter into this role and bring in a new midfield coach. McQualter's Richmond IP would still be massively helpful.

[dazzledavey36 52,690]

1 minute ago, Binmans PA said:

If he hadn't already been with us, I'd say Jennings, but he's obviously at GWS.

Leppitsch would be a great get given he's strategy at Collingwood. That would be some good offensive IP.

Or conversely, we move McQualter into this role and bring in a new midfield coach. McQualter's Richmond IP would still be massively helpful.

Lepper is off to the Dons. 

[Adam The God 29,291]

1 minute ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Lepper is off to the Dons. 

Wow, okay, huge coup for them.

[58er 5,903]

On 11/08/2024 at 22:07, Ollie fan said:

The Goodwin detractors operate on several assumptions which I believe to be wrong.

 

The first is that seasons 2022 and 2023  were a complete fail. Sure, I was not happy that we went out in straight sets in both of them, but to be top four in each was a real achievement - compare Richmond in 2021, Geelong in 2023, and now Collingwood. And particularly in 2023, there were good reasons - the injuries to 2/3 or more of our forward line made it almost impossible to succeed, and all credit to everyone involved for how close we came.

 

The second assumption is that because we have eg the best ruckman in the comp, we should win every hitout; because we have a great midfield we should win every clearance, etc.. It only has to be said for the fallacy to be obvious.

 

Then there is the assumption that there are, eg, good ruckmen around who would be prepared to come to the club and spend the vast bulk of the year at Casey in order to replace Max if he goes down for a short or a long period. Such palyers are in very short supply. And we don't have 'lifestyle" to offer a la Geelong, and the come-home factor for Victorians is shared with many other clubs.

 

Finally, there is a lot of criticism of Goody for not changing to a game plan of speed and skill. In short, our list was built for defence and contest. In 2011-2012, Neeld was given a list built for pace and skill and tried to turn it into a hard defensive team - with predictably disastrous results. To do this in reverse would be equally disastrous. Goody has tried to change the game plan up a bit this year, with mixed results, but why should we? Our game is contest and defence and it is still effective despite the injuries that we now have- getting so close to Brisbane, GWS and Port Adelaide, all genuine contenders, shows that. Some people say it is dull and boring. That is a matter of taste - personally, I love a hard, defensive game and absolutely hate a boring goalfest a la basketball. And what I absolutely love is to go along and see us being competitive, even when we are expected to lose by 10 goals as we were against Port. Yes, there have been a few very poor performances this year, but generally we have turned up to play and have shown some spirit. After decades of watching games with only the hope that I might see a glimmer for the future, this is now a real pleasure.

To not make changes ignores the fact that we are not getting any better. The Club cannot afford to play this way and continue to bore our fans. 

Your defence is one of the most listless options I have heard. Any real supporter can see the players are a shadow of themselves and new young ones are getting the skill and flair coached out of their game. Thats why we can’t provide a star or Xfactor with skill to win the close games. We don’t play natural football we play a contrived brand that resists individuals and their skills once the pressure is on to deliver. 

[The heart beats true 17,737]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Lepper is off to the Dons. 

Is it fair to say that he didn’t got on with Bolts? 

[Demonland 70,216]

 

[DubDee 24,293]

38 minutes ago, Demonland said:

 

Getting serious pre 2021 vibes

[Demon Dynasty 17,080]

18 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Lepper is off to the Dons. 

 

18 hours ago, Binmans PA said:

Wow, okay, huge coup for them.

It certainly is.  It's not the first time he's been impressed with them either.

The article below goes back to 2021 but shows he was on the money with what they were doing back then, even if the coach at the time wasn't to be.

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/06/24/the-three-big-ticks-leppitsch-has-given-essendon/

Is it just coincidence that he's been at clubs during periods of ultimate success?

This would've been a great get for us.  Albeit a different role but not dissimilar to the way we landed Choco just before our flag.

Edited August 14 by Demon Dynasty

[Jibroni 4,909]

On 12/08/2024 at 05:11, 58er said:

That's the benefit of a CHANGE St…d.

Really Thsts what’s required whether it’s Goody infuced( which Ivfear won’t happen) or selected assistants that power the arguments for necessary and positive moves in game plans, recruiting certain types for a new game plan and making the Club look invigorated. And futuristic to today’s football. We are in a rut.  

BUT footy clubs have to evolve and new personnel are essential. Our game plan is still defence and contest but offence and challenge need to be added. If the forces that set the FD and Coach don’t realise this ( with JT and TL) recruiting along skill and running  advantages we will not make pace and simply drop each year yo the bottom again.

Why because we are not trained to take chances in our game plans. We are engrained in saving goals snd not kicking them. Our forwards don’t know how to win close games as the brain is not non change from defence to attack. 

It has not helped that Trac Clarry and Gawny have not been available or this season not fit enough to have a major influence on the play.

Goody again could use Clarry more up forward cut out the gut running with very limited bursts on the ball. Give Laurie and Kynan an opportunity. McVee also. 

Will Spsrrow be any better for at last being dropped? Let’s see.

We need much more immediate impact now either in house or starting from the fence to the backyard.

Accepting it is hard but totally necessary to have the effect on our next 4/5 years if we are to utilise all our long term stars extensions.

 

 

I agree we do need some adjustments to preparation, recruiting and gamestyle. Since the flag since we have witnessed one of the best lists and the club been run into the ground, culturally, physically and mentally. More adaptation is needed in 2025.

 

[H_T 3,032]

23 hours ago, FreedFromDesire said:

Whilst I personally have my own issues with Goodwin-centric things (mainly around game style and selection), to me the reality is the things he continually gets the blame for are more a team responsibility and we often get a bit sucked into blaming one person because it's obvious and easy.

The reality is, even the things I'm unhappy with, are the responsibility of a team of coaches, and I believe what we perceive purely as Goodwin's performance has been more reflective of the performance of that group and whether we've had the right strengths around him. Personally I feel at the moment we're lacking a game plan/strategy expert.

If you notice also on game day, Goodwin is more responsible for messaging and strategy and instructional coaching is more run from up in the coach's box (you may have noticed on the weekend when Clarry came off after his horror session in the backline he immediately got on the phone rather than have a big chat with Goody).

Then there's wider issues, which I won't go into one by one, but they basically come down to football performance, and we have a specific person in charge of that in Alan Richardson.

So, long story short(ish), I think we should be focusing our attention wider than just purely Goodwin. That's not to save him from criticism, but it's just the reality of how the coaching setup works. It really is more of a team, even though often the focus goes on the one person as head coach.

I would hope this offseason, post the current review, there is significant enough change in the football department that we get the best mix of people and skills in and around Goodwin again.

T. Morris uses “long story short” a lot. 
 

[FreedFromDesire 583]

1 minute ago, H_T said:

T. Morris uses “long story short” a lot. 
 

Is this sort of thing really necessary? I don't believe I've posted anything controversial or attacked anyone in my short time here. I'm just here to talk about the Demons.

[Gawndy the Great 9,008]

12 hours ago, DubDee said:

Getting serious pre 2021 vibes

How so? I dont think it has any pre2021 vibes more like pre Roos vibes at the moment. 

[praha 11,100]

On 14/08/2024 at 09:28, Watson11 said:

I personally think the review should be a Collingwood 2017 style review but that will never happen with Pert.  Goody won't be going anywhere, and he can't be solely blamed for areas we have been deficient in like our poor list management since 2021, medical/fitness issues where we are fading every season and playing injured players, off-field distractions at the board level etc.  But he and the coaches need to be reviewed as well.

After winning a flag coaches often get an extended run at it for 5 or 6 years minimum.  Goody deserves the same.  But coaches almost never win a second flag at the same club if there is a 5 or 6+ year gap.  I think Sheedy and Chris Scott are the only ones to do it in the history of the game, and they both contended by making prelims during that 5 or 6 year period so were not far away.  So if a rebuild is needed Goody may not be the best person to do it.

I have no idea why it is so hard to rebuild.  Maybe coaches are too loyal to the original players that won the flag.  Maybe other coaches focus on your gameplan and so if you don't adapt you get passed.  Who knows.

The idea of a "rebuild" in the traditional sense is in my view flawed. You need to be in constant "build" mode ala Geelong, Sydney and even Hawthorn to an extent. You fail quickly and go all in to make your list better. Otherwise you risk bottoming out for too long like North and West Coast. Richmond is in for a world of pain. We have plugged holes with bandaid solutions, and the one long term solution to improve our list in Grundy we gave up on after 10 rounds despite us having played the best football we've played across two seasons during that period.

In the span of 24 months we'll have lost Jackson, Grundy, Bedford, Brayshaw, Harmes, Jordon, Neal Bullen, and Hibberd. That's a combination of walk-up 22 and emergency depth. The depth we've replaced them with outside of Windsor just hasn't been sufficient. You win some and you lose some but we are on a one-way ticket to being perennial run-withs like Adelaide; plenty of talent but a dip in quality below your top 22 the size of the grand canyon.

Goodwin can't afford to rebuild and I am sure he is aware of that. He wants to win now. They need to be far more aggressive but also patient. I still can't get over the Grundy fiasco. It's honestly making me question Gawn's place in our current predicament especially after Jordon Lewis' comments last night about certain players running their own agenda. None of it makes sense when you really think of it. Some here have an aneurysm whenever Grundy is brought up but I can't ignore the obvious alignment with just bizarre list and cultural abnormalities that persist.

Now Houston doesn't want to come here. Who would the way we treated Grundy? And now ANB is leaving, plus your best player is disillusioned.... I'm sure players are lining up to come here... 

Goodwin and the football department need to start taking big risks now or he needs to step aside. And please stop bringing in plodders that can barely get a game at non-finals teams. If a player isn't best 22 at a bottom team then they shouldn't even be considered.