20 hours ago, Deesprate said:

To say the season is a waste is wrong. JVR alone made it worthwhile. The defensive game plan fails if you don’t covert. Bad kicking can’t be underestimated as a cause of the loss. It hurt but reviewed the last quarter.Two decision were particularly appalling. Sparrow legitimately tackles a guy over boundary and then is attacked. Tries to protect himself and is pinged. Example one of complete lack of game awareness by the umpire. TMac jumps over a player and is pinged by umpire 22 incredible decision. He then yells at Clarry who clearly doesn’t hear him and give 50. Example two there 96000 people screaming and it does not occur to that primped up little xxxx he might not have heard him. Cost us a chance at goal and led to Carltank second last goal. 

There are numerous examples of poor umpiring. The one that got me at the game was again Umpire 22 - Nathan Williamson late in the 3rd quarter. 
 

Apologies for the quality - but I have circled him, the ball and Pittonet engaging and taking Gawn out of the marking contest. (The telecast vision was poor but the umpires vision of it was not!!)
I was filthy as I was row G just left of umpire 22. I could see both the free and the umpire and couldn’t believe the none decision. Even the scumbag Carlton fans were agreeing in the next bay that they got away with one. 

I know Gawn has put some mayo on by flopping a bit in the past but then he is also taken high, held, arm chopped, bumped, shepherded and impeded without receiving a free for what is blatantly a free in every game. He must have his photo displayed next to Ginnivan and Greene at umpires HQ.  How can we address this as it’s a small contributing factor to both finals losses?  Will the club address this? How do we get this in the media like the filth with Ginnivan?

Also, I read elsewhere that semi final weekend they have previously rested the best umpires so they’re fresh for prelim and GF. Isn’t that what one of the reasons of bringing in 4 field umpires was trying to address? Why go substandard when the best is available? Surely the week off before finals is enough (yeah they run a lot but they don’t take big hits) to not need another break so soon. 

Lotsa apologists on here

Could be worse - we could be Port supporters 

25 minutes ago, Gunna’s said:

There are numerous examples of poor umpiring. The one that got me at the game was again Umpire 22 - Nathan Williamson late in the 3rd quarter. 
 

Apologies for the quality - but I have circled him, the ball and Pittonet engaging and taking Gawn out of the marking contest. (The telecast vision was poor but the umpires vision of it was not!!)
I was filthy as I was row G just left of umpire 22. I could see both the free and the umpire and couldn’t believe the none decision. Even the scumbag Carlton fans were agreeing in the next bay that they got away with one. 

I know Gawn has put some mayo on by flopping a bit in the past but then he is also taken high, held, arm chopped, bumped, shepherded and impeded without receiving a free for what is blatantly a free in every game. He must have his photo displayed next to Ginnivan and Greene at umpires HQ.  How can we address this as it’s a small contributing factor to both finals losses?  Will the club address this? How do we get this in the media like the filth with Ginnivan?

Also, I read elsewhere that semi final weekend they have previously rested the best umpires so they’re fresh for prelim and GF. Isn’t that what one of the reasons of bringing in 4 field umpires was trying to address? Why go substandard when the best is available? Surely the week off before finals is enough (yeah they run a lot but they don’t take big hits) to not need another break so soon. 

I was at ground level of this view and going off the consistency to pay holds and pushes in the game I'd written this one down as a free. They totally whiffed that one I thought. 

12 hours ago, BaliDemon said:

Yeah not sure Hinkley provides a strong supporting case for any argument. The bloke has been at Port for what 11 years (?) for zero grand final appearances? Probably lost more finals than he's won? I'd say there's more than injury excuses going on there. 

I’m by no means a Goodwin hater. Extremely grateful for the 2021 flag but I’m firmly on the side of the fence of this list being a Golden Generation for the MFC. Like Carlton in the mid 90’s and Essendon of the early 2000’s, if it only produces the one flag I’ll be slightly disappointed. I think a fair few other supporters will be, too. 

Goody isn’t Clarkson or Hardwick or Matthews. He isn’t beyond questioning. I still find myself doubting his team selection a little too often, his in-game slowness to react a bit too frequently to be absolutely certain he’s got the Midas touch that those aforementioned coaches had/have. Only the very best coaches win 2+ premierships. 

That all said, I hope he does go on to achieve greatness for the Dees. He’s earned the right to give it a red hot crack for the next three seasons. Unless things go absolutely pear shaped I’ll be supporting him but I still reserve the right to question. No need to be sheep-like and clap everything he does.

Agree: then again, there's also no need to blame him for every twist of fate either...

13 hours ago, Deespicable said:

I think we will look back on this year as the one flag we should have won - a bit like 1990 when there was no clear standout and we were arguably a better side than the Pies and got knocked out after having to wait an extra week because the Pies drew with the Eagles - back then the draw meant a replay.

But there were certainly some major positives.

1) Rivers, who had an ordinary finals series, stepped up to become a genuinely good player who now needs a spot in the midfield. My season highlight was his two accurate inboard passes in our freakish come from behind win over the Lions.

2) Sparrow showed he is now physically capable of matching it with anyone and is a wonderful tagger in the Harmes 2018 mould.

3) Smith showed he can play at AFL level ... and can play pretty much anywhere. With McAdam coming in, he is the obvious replacement for Rivers down back because of his versatility.

4) JVR got plenty of experience, as did young McVee. And for those trying to blame him for that final goal, remember this - Tom Stewart was badly beaten by Dustin Martin in a crucial late play on the wing in 2017 QF. The Tigers went on to win that game and the flag, but Stewart has ended up a pretty damn good player. 

5) Our trade value as a club has gone up. Jayden Hunt was fourth in the B&F at Eagles, Toby Bedford could end up playing in a GF, Oskar Baker got games at the Bulldogs (unlike at Melbourne) and Sam Weideman showed in his three VFL games at Essendon as a backman that he could be a regular after all. Not to mention his five-goal AFL game against the Cats.

6) And after picking the smallest forward side in the history of AFL finals, we showed that such a strange selection could still end up producing scoring shots and was one way to force players to look at the short option. So our loss to the Blues may end up shaping our game style for 2024 and could also force Goody to drop his attack up the wings mentality.

Sadly we say goodbye to Hibberd and it sounds like Grundy, Harmes, JJ and Tommo will join them. And in my opinion, the rise of Moniz-Wakefield and McAdam's signing means that at least one or possibly two of our small forwards has to go to get gametime - and yes I know they are all contracted. But so is Grundy.

You want rivers out for smith? Rivers!

13 hours ago, deanox said:

I reckon if you want a complete re-design, you'll be disappointed.

Our game plan has been the most successful in the comp over the last 4 years. We haven't had a consistent rival in that time (Brisbane the closest with a significant home ground advantage).

This year we lost only one game by more than 10 points. And all stat indicators (leading to xScore) pointed to us winning the majority of those games (including 3/4 finals that we lost. The other final against Sydney was a <3 point loss on xScore).

In 2022 we had significant injury and fitness issue that saw us fall into a hole at the end of the season, cooked. Some injuries can't be helped but we also had a new fitness lead. We made major changes to our conditioning and injury management programs in 2023 for significant improvement.

In 2023 we have again battled some key inuries (everyone has them but ours were often particularly key players like Gawn and Oliver). The injuries were almost entirely concentrated on tall and medium forwards. That part of our structure never settled, yet we still probably should've won both finals.

We'll make further, incremental changes to the game plan, recruit some players and try to solve the forward issue with the players available to us.

But wholesale changes aren't on the cards.

You are probably right but I am trying to reconcile the freewheeling way we played in the pre-season and early rounds when we scored easily, cleanly and through the corridor. We tried doing that in the second half against coll and carlton

We cut angles and kicked into the corridor and were the most accurate team in the comp up until about round 7. It was less predictable and way more open.

 

 

 

11 hours ago, IRW said:

I wish he was...he certainly should be  but we will have to wait until next season now because he's totally irrelevant again 

In terms of Match Day Coaching, he is under the Pump. 
Credits in the Bank from ‘21 Success have now gone. 
That has come from inside…

 

1 hour ago, Gunna’s said:

There are numerous examples of poor umpiring. The one that got me at the game was again Umpire 22 - Nathan Williamson late in the 3rd quarter. 
 

Apologies for the quality - but I have circled him, the ball and Pittonet engaging and taking Gawn out of the marking contest. (The telecast vision was poor but the umpires vision of it was not!!)
I was filthy as I was row G just left of umpire 22. I could see both the free and the umpire and couldn’t believe the none decision. Even the scumbag Carlton fans were agreeing in the next bay that they got away with one. 

I know Gawn has put some mayo on by flopping a bit in the past but then he is also taken high, held, arm chopped, bumped, shepherded and impeded without receiving a free for what is blatantly a free in every game. He must have his photo displayed next to Ginnivan and Greene at umpires HQ.  How can we address this as it’s a small contributing factor to both finals losses?  Will the club address this? How do we get this in the media like the filth with Ginnivan?

Also, I read elsewhere that semi final weekend they have previously rested the best umpires so they’re fresh for prelim and GF. Isn’t that what one of the reasons of bringing in 4 field umpires was trying to address? Why go substandard when the best is available? Surely the week off before finals is enough (yeah they run a lot but they don’t take big hits) to not need another break so soon. 

Yep, it's disgusting. Max basically gets mauled every game, hardly ever awarded frees for it. Dunno how he puts up with it, really. That great fat goose Cox is the worst offender.  Max is incredible - just keeps coming back for more. But surely the club could put in some kind of official complaint? 

10 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

In terms of Match Day Coaching, he is under the Pump. 
Credits in the Bank from ‘21 Success have now gone. 
That has come from inside…

 

Same inside people that literally re-signed him 4 weeks ago....

7 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Same inside people that literally re-signed him 4 weeks ago....

Not necessarily. I am only telling what i was told over Sunday Breakfast. 
A new extension did not include a straight sets exit. But that is the reality we are left with. 
 

10 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Not necessarily. I am only telling what i was told over Sunday Breakfast. 
A new extension did not include a straight sets exit. But that is the reality we are left with. 
 

Well they should have waited until post finals to offer the extension then. Reflects pretty poorly on their decision making processes if they are regretting the decision already. 

I think Rohan Connolly is an outstanding footy journo.  He provides a sense of real balance in his latest piece for ESPN.

https://www.espn.com.au/afl/story/_/id/38395193/afl-finals-rohan-connolly-where-next-melbourne-demons-port-adelaide-power-straight-sets

Just now, BDA said:

Well they should have waited until post finals to offer the extension then. Reflects pretty poorly on their decision making processes if they are regretting the decision already. 

I agree. I don’t know who presided over the extension, but it surprised me. I think most decisions concerning personnel, should be made Post Season 

12 minutes ago, Swooper1987 said:

I think Rohan Connolly is an outstanding footy journo.  He provides a sense of real balance in his latest piece for ESPN.

https://www.espn.com.au/afl/story/_/id/38395193/afl-finals-rohan-connolly-where-next-melbourne-demons-port-adelaide-power-straight-sets

Rohan the Man is a plagiarist. It is word for word - or its gist - what I wrote: but I forgive him, because in the end, what he and I wrote is not rocket science.

It's worth Melbourne and Port Adelaide fans pondering that as they pick over the entrails of their team's defeats. Because I'm not sure the level of angst about either necessarily matches the reality of their position. Particularly when it comes to the Dees.

 

ESPN/Getty Images

Of course, the Demons shot themselves in the foot in not just one but two finals, losing both by a combined total of just nine points having booted a collectively ridiculously wasteful 16.28. But you also need a bit of luck on your side to win premierships, and this season Melbourne had precious little, particularly near goal.

Tom McDonald and Ben Brown were injured, out of sorts, or both. Then Bayley Fritsch got hurt. Then, just as Melbourne appeared to have crafted first one, then a second more-than-adequate back-up plan in attack with Harrison Petty and Jake Melksham, they suffered season-ending injuries. And just to rub salt in the wound, young gun Jacob van Rooyen got suspended.

Even then, the Dees still managed to find goals in their two finals out of Fritsch, Kysaiah Pickett and Joel Smith. Even then, they managed 18 scores to Collingwood's 15 in the qualifying final and 26 to 18 against the Blues.

But the repeated disruptions to any sort of continuity of structure simply had to take a toll. On both efficiency and conversion. And Melbourne still was oh-so-close to winning either game. In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest had even one, let alone both Petty and Melksham stayed upright, the Dees might very well have ended up premiers.

On that basis, while the hand-wringing about Melbourne potentially squandering a golden era is understandable, I think it's completely over the top.

The Demons were still a healthy enough sixth for points scored this year and defensively were ranked behind only St Kilda. They were ranked top six in five out of six midfield categories and were close to the best in the business in terms of occupying territory.

They had the second-most experienced games average in but were still youthful enough, with a handful of clubs still older and with more over 30s. They got valuable experience into the likes of Van Rooyen and Judd McVee, and even now-experienced premiership players like Trent Rivers and Tom Sparrow took steps forward.

Yes, another key forward should be a priority. But that may well be all that is needed for Melbourne to continue to push for a premiership for some time yet.

Edited September 18, 20231 yr by Monbon

22 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Not necessarily. I am only telling what i was told over Sunday Breakfast. 
A new extension did not include a straight sets exit. But that is the reality we are left with. 
 

Well it seemed stupid unprofessional and unnecesary timing at the time.

He probably deserves 2 more years but still...!

Who's running this sheet show?

1 minute ago, Monbon said:

Rohan the Man is a plagiarist. It is word for word - or its gist - what I wrote:

It's worth Melbourne and Port Adelaide fans pondering that as they pick over the entrails of their team's defeats. Because I'm not sure the level of angst about either necessarily matches the reality of their position. Particularly when it comes to the Dees.

 

ESPN/Getty Images

Of course, the Demons shot themselves in the foot in not just one but two finals, losing both by a combined total of just nine points having booted a collectively ridiculously wasteful 16.28. But you also need a bit of luck on your side to win premierships, and this season Melbourne had precious little, particularly near goal.

Tom McDonald and Ben Brown were injured, out of sorts, or both. Then Bayley Fritsch got hurt. Then, just as Melbourne appeared to have crafted first one, then a second more-than-adequate back-up plan in attack with Harrison Petty and Jake Melksham, they suffered season-ending injuries. And just to rub salt in the wound, young gun Jacob van Rooyen got suspended.

Even then, the Dees still managed to find goals in their two finals out of Fritsch, Kysaiah Pickett and Joel Smith. Even then, they managed 18 scores to Collingwood's 15 in the qualifying final and 26 to 18 against the Blues.

But the repeated disruptions to any sort of continuity of structure simply had to take a toll. On both efficiency and conversion. And Melbourne still was oh-so-close to winning either game. In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest had even one, let alone both Petty and Melksham stayed upright, the Dees might very well have ended up premiers.

On that basis, while the hand-wringing about Melbourne potentially squandering a golden era is understandable, I think it's completely over the top.

The Demons were still a healthy enough sixth for points scored this year and defensively were ranked behind only St Kilda. They were ranked top six in five out of six midfield categories and were close to the best in the business in terms of occupying territory.

They had the second-most experienced games average in but were still youthful enough, with a handful of clubs still older and with more over 30s. They got valuable experience into the likes of Van Rooyen and Judd McVee, and even now-experienced premiership players like Trent Rivers and Tom Sparrow took steps forward.

Yes, another key forward should be a priority. But that may well be all that is needed for Melbourne to continue to push for a premiership for some time yet.

No point in having a key forward if you don't kick it to him on a lead or when he's just one on one without a small forward or a ruckman jumping all over him

4 hours ago, gs77 said:

On TV to me it didn't look touched. I didn't see a any finger deflection as the ball passed by the hand. The shadow of the ball quickly passing over the hand may have given the impression it was touched, but I didn't see evidence of physical contact. 

Again.... if the ball goes through the goals and does NOT touch either post (as per the Arc) the option of "i think it was a point but i just need to check" should be taken away from the goal umpire.

The only option is "i'm unsure i just need to check it wasn't touched or hit the post".

That is.... the default us always a goal unless the technology proves conclusively that it WAS touchex or hit the post.

The alternative means that any genuine goal is in danger of being called a point purely because the goal umpire said he is "unsure" (or even unsighted!)

14 minutes ago, Swooper1987 said:

I think Rohan Connolly is an outstanding footy journo.  He provides a sense of real balance in his latest piece for ESPN.

https://www.espn.com.au/afl/story/_/id/38395193/afl-finals-rohan-connolly-where-next-melbourne-demons-port-adelaide-power-straight-sets

It’s a very good article. Have always rated ‘Roco’ as one of if not the best football journalists of the past 25+ years. Brilliant analytical mind. Bit of a [censored] when it comes to politics but I can overlook that! 

 

5 hours ago, Demon Dynasty said:

We can use Razor's very own descriptions / explanations (via SEN Whately segments) to come at them though Clint.

The deliberate non-call for the Blues (with no over rule by the other three umps) is not a mistake.

That's a free every time except this time.  There's no grey there.  Razor has said on multiple occasions if a player kicks the ball towards the boundary (a straight kick along the line or from skinny to fat side is fine) and it goes out it's considered insufficient intent and should be callled deliberate.

Even if the player kicks somewhat along the line but goes from fat side to skinny (angle wise) and it bounces out.... it's deliberate (according to Razor).

Both versions were both massively obvious deliberates on Friday night but only one was given.

This has now happened to us on  multiple occasions.

We are going to accept that the rule is only different for us and that four umpires all got it wrong?

If you do then they'll think it's ok to  keep sticking it to us as 'oh well it's a grey area and hard to officiate'.  We are the loser if we don't speak up.

The club has to make a stand.  We are on the receiving end of far too many supposed 'controversial' decisions.

While we're on the subject, i didn't and probably won't watch the replay but was Nibbler's shot at goal genuinly touched?  The vision on the big screen at the match seemed inconclusive.

What about handballing the ball along the boundary and it goes out (ie Sam Walsh seconds before the Petracca deliberate was paid)?

Can not stand Cornes but he is correct here. 

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/melbourne-demons/afl-2023-kane-cornes-calls-melbourne-demons-stubborn-for-not-playing-brodie-grundy-future-player-exiting-meeting-trade-to-sydney-swans-asking-price-what-will-it-cost-latest/news-story/8962b9106f52475f4257dc1a5d49cac7

 

 

32 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

What about handballing the ball along the boundary and it goes out (ie Sam Walsh seconds before the Petracca deliberate was paid)?

According to Razor....

If it initially goes straight, parallel with the line, then it take a turn and bounces out.... then no.

If the ball is handballed (or kicked)  from inside the line towards the line and no fellow player in the vicinity then yes it's technically deliberate even if the angle is slight, let alone right angles etc!

I haven't watched the replay and didn't have a clear view on the night.

A please explain needs to go into the AFL for the Petracca one vs the very obvious Blues version that wasn't called.

Edited September 18, 20231 yr by Demon Dynasty

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

In terms of Match Day Coaching, he is under the Pump. 
Credits in the Bank from ‘21 Success have now gone. 
That has come from inside…

 

But someone said Yze takes the reigns on Matchday? I'm confused 🤔

Edited September 18, 20231 yr by Dr. Gonzo

37 minutes ago, Monbon said:

Rohan the Man is a plagiarist. It is word for word - or its gist - what I wrote: but I forgive him, because in the end, what he and I wrote is not rocket science.

It's worth Melbourne and Port Adelaide fans pondering that as they pick over the entrails of their team's defeats. Because I'm not sure the level of angst about either necessarily matches the reality of their position. Particularly when it comes to the Dees.

 

ESPN/Getty Images

Of course, the Demons shot themselves in the foot in not just one but two finals, losing both by a combined total of just nine points having booted a collectively ridiculously wasteful 16.28. But you also need a bit of luck on your side to win premierships, and this season Melbourne had precious little, particularly near goal.

Tom McDonald and Ben Brown were injured, out of sorts, or both. Then Bayley Fritsch got hurt. Then, just as Melbourne appeared to have crafted first one, then a second more-than-adequate back-up plan in attack with Harrison Petty and Jake Melksham, they suffered season-ending injuries. And just to rub salt in the wound, young gun Jacob van Rooyen got suspended.

Even then, the Dees still managed to find goals in their two finals out of Fritsch, Kysaiah Pickett and Joel Smith. Even then, they managed 18 scores to Collingwood's 15 in the qualifying final and 26 to 18 against the Blues.

But the repeated disruptions to any sort of continuity of structure simply had to take a toll. On both efficiency and conversion. And Melbourne still was oh-so-close to winning either game. In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest had even one, let alone both Petty and Melksham stayed upright, the Dees might very well have ended up premiers.

On that basis, while the hand-wringing about Melbourne potentially squandering a golden era is understandable, I think it's completely over the top.

The Demons were still a healthy enough sixth for points scored this year and defensively were ranked behind only St Kilda. They were ranked top six in five out of six midfield categories and were close to the best in the business in terms of occupying territory.

They had the second-most experienced games average in but were still youthful enough, with a handful of clubs still older and with more over 30s. They got valuable experience into the likes of Van Rooyen and Judd McVee, and even now-experienced premiership players like Trent Rivers and Tom Sparrow took steps forward.

Yes, another key forward should be a priority. But that may well be all that is needed for Melbourne to continue to push for a premiership for some time yet.

Completely agree, I've winged a bit but really we've done pretty well considering how much adversity we've had to overcome this year.  We did squander the chances with poor kicking though, that aside we were in a position to win both finals games.

Practice kicking over the break, and the young players with more experience will be better for it after 2023 and I firmly believe 2024 will look much better than 2022 and 2023.  We are in a good position for next year.

6 minutes ago, YearOfTheDees said:

Can not stand Cornes but he is correct here. 

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/melbourne-demons/afl-2023-kane-cornes-calls-melbourne-demons-stubborn-for-not-playing-brodie-grundy-future-player-exiting-meeting-trade-to-sydney-swans-asking-price-what-will-it-cost-latest/news-story/8962b9106f52475f4257dc1a5d49cac7

 

 

Disagree. It’s a revisionist take and ignores the reality that Grundy/Gawn didn’t work all year and Grundy has no forward craft. However the accusation of stubbornness on Goodwin’s part is fair, particularly in relation to the non-activation of Schache in the second half of the game. TMac was terrible against Collingwood and carried that form into the Carlton final. He could not get near it. Goody simply had to roll the dice on bringing Schache on in the second half, but he sat on his hands. Same in the Collingwood loss when he should’ve thrown Tracc forward much earlier in the game. 
 

He’s either not a risk taker Simon or he lacks an intuitive sense of in-game trends and momentum. Either way he can be extremely frustrating to observe in the box. I think they need a bit of a shake up in there in general, starting with Greg Stafford. Get an assistant forward line coach who has a genuine feel for the game in the front half, not an old ex-ruckman. It’s a must for me. 

I don't understand why we don't win more centre clearances.