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19 minutes ago, binman said:

I posted this in the rumors thread prior to the Grand Final, but it's a better fit here:

If I were in charge of recruitment I'd be focusing on getting in:

- one or two quality high half forwards who are elite athletes and decent kicks (ie two more nibblers - who by the by was our best kick inside 50 this year in terms of kick to score ratio). Bedford would be ideal (yes I know he ain't going anywhere)

- a mid size half forward/utility/mid who is an elite athlete, above average to elite kick, wins their own ball and kicks goals (the player type I'm thinking of is McCarthy and Bailey from the lions. Sparrow is our equivalent. We need more sparrows)

- a distributor from half back (or wing or outside mid) with elite kicking and decision making skills who can reliably execute difficult, high risk kicks - even under intense pressure (salo and bowey have been these players for us, but for diff reasons neither were able to play that role to the required level this season. I'm thinking of players like locasious, Coleman and anderson)

- a second ruck (I've got no idea who)

On the second point it is worth noting that in the Grand Final:

  • McCarthy and Bailey both kicked 2 goals and their combined 4 goals was nearly a third of the lions' 13 goals
  • Add Hugh McCluggage's 2 goals (he also had a match high 3 goal assists) and nearly half of the lions goals were kicked by mid sized non forward utility types
  • Half of Collingwood's 12 goals came from their midfielders 

Our forward line 'issues' are a furphy IMO. All of our regular forwards, including Petty, are excellent set shots and pretty good from general play too.

The key issue, IMO, is the poor execution and lack of goals and goal assists from our mids and utilities (wingers, flankers etc).

I think throughout the year I also mentioned McCarthy and Bailey as the type of player we desperately need.

Half forwards who play as forwards first, are opportunistic and make their chances count. The Grand Final was the perfect example - I know they didn’t win but those guys (along with Joey) could not have done much more. 

Coleman has quickly become the player every team wants. He is sublime.
If I was creating a team from scratch, he’d almost be the first player I would pick. He executed all the way through the finals too, very classy player.

I think Wanganeen-Milera from the Saints is similar, at least he had a patch this year where he was.

It looks like Reid/McKercher/Duursma could play the Bailey role from Round 1 and if there is any chance the Oliver trade happens, we are guaranteed at least one of that trio. The flow on effect from this positional upgrade would be enormous

 

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32 minutes ago, BW511 said:

I think throughout the year I also mentioned McCarthy and Bailey as the type of player we desperately need.

Half forwards who play as forwards first, are opportunistic and make their chances count. The Grand Final was the perfect example - I know they didn’t win but those guys (along with Joey) could not have done much more. 

Coleman has quickly become the player every team wants. He is sublime.
If I was creating a team from scratch, he’d almost be the first player I would pick. He executed all the way through the finals too, very classy player.

I think Wanganeen-Milera from the Saints is similar, at least he had a patch this year where he was.

It looks like Reid/McKercher/Duursma could play the Bailey role from Round 1 and if there is any chance the Oliver trade happens, we are guaranteed at least one of that trio. The flow on effect from this positional upgrade would be enormous

 

I have more faith in us sorting the half backs if McQualter can get Troy Chaplin and our experienced defenders to loosen the reigns a little.

Salem's always lacked a little kicking penetration but if we can get him healthy he's still one of the best ball users in the comp. And there's genuine competition/help in that role with Bowey, McVee, Rivers and Howes.

Half forward is a different challenge. The Lions forward just don't defend to an elite level. That's why they aren't premiers. They need to get more out of their talls and Rayner (if he's the 3rd tall). Charlie Cameron can be spotty. Dev Rob is the only defensive worker and he's not amazing at it. They are actually crying out for an ANB like player!

I'm not convinced we'll suddenly be blooding kids in the hardest position on the ground. Reid has undeniable talent so you'd chuck him in and live with it, a bit like JHF at Port this year. But McKercher is the type of midfielder who usually has to play midfield. Duursma's VFL form said he's a fair way off and I'd almost be tempted to start him off half back to make it easier for him to adapt.

The Pies favour defensive half forwards. McCreery is a spotty attacking player. Lipinski. Adams. Even Ginnivan when he came back in came in to defend first.

Midfield is the position we desperately need an injection of skill to balance things out. Seems we might be removing a player without great skills. Not sure if any of the top draft picks will be able to walk in to the midfield and provide us that balance from year 1.

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22 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

I have more faith in us sorting the half backs if McQualter can get Troy Chaplin and our experienced defenders to loosen the reigns a little.

Salem's always lacked a little kicking penetration but if we can get him healthy he's still one of the best ball users in the comp. And there's genuine competition/help in that role with Bowey, McVee, Rivers and Howes.

Half forward is a different challenge. The Lions forward just don't defend to an elite level. That's why they aren't premiers. They need to get more out of their talls and Rayner (if he's the 3rd tall). Charlie Cameron can be spotty. Dev Rob is the only defensive worker and he's not amazing at it. They are actually crying out for an ANB like player!

I'm not convinced we'll suddenly be blooding kids in the hardest position on the ground. Reid has undeniable talent so you'd chuck him in and live with it, a bit like JHF at Port this year. But McKercher is the type of midfielder who usually has to play midfield. Duursma's VFL form said he's a fair way off and I'd almost be tempted to start him off half back to make it easier for him to adapt.

The Pies favour defensive half forwards. McCreery is a spotty attacking player. Lipinski. Adams. Even Ginnivan when he came back in came in to defend first.

Midfield is the position we desperately need an injection of skill to balance things out. Seems we might be removing a player without great skills. Not sure if any of the top draft picks will be able to walk in to the midfield and provide us that balance from year 1.

Sort of agree with your last paragraph. Our ball carriers in the midfield are not as good as Collingwood, Brisbane or GWS. Then again our first dibs midfielder are the envy of most teams. You can have different strengths.

It would be good to have one or two additional line breaking mids/wingers in the mould of Whitfield, Coleman, Daicos, etc. Guys that can pinpoint 50 metre kicks to beat the zone.

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On 9/18/2023 at 6:19 AM, Engorged Onion said:

It's understandable to yearn for the aggressive and intimidating qualities of previous teams, especially in contact sports like Aussie Rules football, where the physical nature is indeed a component of the game. However, aggression can provide a competitive edge, but there's a distinction to be made between functional aggression, which is channeled to enhance performance, and dysfunctional aggression, which might lead to penalties, suspensions, and undermine team cohesion.

High-performing athletes often possess superior emotional regulation skills. Reacting aggressively or seeking revenge after a teammate is injured might feel right in the moment, but it can jeopardize the overarching game strategy. Staying focused on the end goal rather than immediate retaliation is crucial.

Furthermore, a successful team often prioritizes a culture of respect, both internally and externally.

Helping an opponent off the ground isn't necessarily indicative of weakness; it can be a reflection of a broader culture of sportsmanship. Such actions can foster a positive team environment, underpinning mutual respect and collaboration.

A sense of unity, camaraderie, and mutual trust, often referred to as team cohesion, plays a significant role in sports success. A team culture rooted in mutual respect and understanding can be more conducive to promoting such cohesion than a purely aggressive one. The realm of modern coaching also provides insight. There's been a shift from dictatorial styles to more transformational approaches, which emphasize player well-being, psychological safety, and holistic development. Empathy, understanding, and clear communication have now become central to effective coaching.

From a long-term perspective, while intimidating tactics might reap short-term benefits, they might lead to long-term challenges, like increased injury rates or mental health issues. By focusing on player well-being and fostering sustainable development, teams can ensure that athletes remain in peak condition, both mentally and physically, throughout their careers.

And... while iconic players like Voss, Hodge, and Scarlett are often cited as paragons of toughness, elite sport is filled with examples of top athletes who've demonstrated sportsmanship alongside their competitiveness.

 

watched a snippet of RDB where he was asked if his aggressive style of coaching was appropriate in this newer era. His response was that fear was a mighty motivator. Offsiders the next day were analysing the rugby and AFL results and the comment was made that CWS had improved as their new coach had allowed them to play fearlessly, the rugby commentator said that was a great comment and he would say the same of Penrith, they played  without fear.

Collingwood have a confidence based on the reality that they are less likely to be penalised and more likely to be protected in a free kick circumstance. as the Maynard incident, the Toby Green incident and the advantage incident show, they can play with a fearlessness that is rewarded.

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5 hours ago, dpositive said:

watched a snippet of RDB where he was asked if his aggressive style of coaching was appropriate in this newer era. His response was that fear was a mighty motivator. Offsiders the next day were analysing the rugby and AFL results and the comment was made that CWS had improved as their new coach had allowed them to play fearlessly, the rugby commentator said that was a great comment and he would say the same of Penrith, they played  without fear.

Collingwood have a confidence based on the reality that they are less likely to be penalised and more likely to be protected in a free kick circumstance. as the Maynard incident, the Toby Green incident and the advantage incident show, they can play with a fearlessness that is rewarded.

Fear, a deep-seated evolutionary emotion, often acts as a motivator by triggering the body's "fight or flight" response. This is marked by the release of stress hormones like cortisol and adrenaline from the adrenal glands. These hormones, while heightening our awareness and increasing heart rate for immediate threats, can be detrimental when experienced chronically, causing health concerns like suppressed thyroid function.

From a familial perspective, when parents employ fear as a motivating tool, it can lead to immediate compliance and heightened caution in children. However, the darker side reveals chronic stress, eroded trust between parent and child, the development of avoidance behaviors, and diminished self-esteem in the child. Similarly, in sports like AFL, when coaches regularly resort to yelling, players might momentarily become more alert and responsive.

Yet, the lingering effects can be detrimental: the players may develop performance anxiety, leading to more mistakes; they might constantly be under heightened stress; the coach-player relationship could deteriorate; and, over time, players could experience burnout, associating the sport with negative emotions rather than passion and enjoyment. In essence, while fear can be a powerful motivator in the short term, its prolonged use can have lasting negative impacts on individuals, be it in familial settings or sports environments.

FEAR (YELLING, ANGER) IS A GREAT MOTIVATOR - SHORT TERM - > IT THEN BECOMES EXHAUSTING AND ATHLETES (ADULT HUMANS) - DISENGAGE EMOTIONALLY TO PROTECT THEMSELVES - THE TRUST BETWEEN TWO PEOPLE (I could get nerdy into inconsistency of a coach, and attachment styles of the player - uncertainty of how a coach responds, and what that brings out on the field when we make errors)...

Edited by Engorged Onion
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15 hours ago, dee-tox said:

It would be good to have one or two additional line breaking mids/wingers in the mould of Whitfield, Coleman, Daicos, etc. Guys that can pinpoint 50 metre kicks to beat the zone.

This is a key point ie needing some players who can pierce zone defence by foot.

Create scoring chains, but as importanty not turn it over

Teams have needed such players, not heaps of them but at least 2 or 3, for a few years but the pressure and intensity in games has gone up a level and such players are more crucial than ever.

We saw how important they are with Coleman's final series. 

Salo and Bowser played that role in 2021. Neither was as effective this year.

Hopefully we bring at least one such player in, but regardless it will be critical salo has an uninterrupted and strong preseason. He never got close to his best this season and we really need a fit, firing salo. 

Edited by binman
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15 hours ago, dee-tox said:

Sort of agree with your last paragraph. Our ball carriers in the midfield are not as good as Collingwood, Brisbane or GWS. Then again our first dibs midfielder are the envy of most teams. You can have different strengths.

It would be good to have one or two additional line breaking mids/wingers in the mould of Whitfield, Coleman, Daicos, etc. Guys that can pinpoint 50 metre kicks to beat the zone.

Whitfield was available last year, he would have made us a much better team than what we did with Hunter and Grundy. Our list management has been pretty good but last year wasn’t their best. 

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8 minutes ago, ANG13 said:

Whitfield was available last year, he would have made us a much better team than what we did with Hunter and Grundy. Our list management has been pretty good but last year wasn’t their best. 

Whitfield would have been great, but i am surprised at how how much heat Hunter has copped. I thought he was excellent this season - though his kicking was as good as i had hoped (it's funny how easily is it to over rate the skills of players from other clubs - i mean it makes sense, i don't watch other teams' game as intently or often as i do the dees - but its a bit like draft highlights)

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2 hours ago, binman said:

This is a key point ie needing some players who can pierce zone defence by foot.

Create scoring chains, but as importanty not turn it over

Teams have needed such players, not heaps of them but at least 2 or 3, for a few years but the pressure and intensity in games has gone up a level and such players are more crucial than ever.

We saw how important they are with Coleman's final series. 

Salo and Bowser played that role in 2021. Neither was as effective this year.

Hopefully we bring at least one such player in, but regardless it will be critical salo has an uninterrupted and strong preseason. He never got close to his best this season and we really need a fit, firing salo. 

I hope you are correct, but I think Salem is past it. He has lost his drive, both in terms of acceleration and kicking penetration. There is no other position he can play either, because he is playing the easiest position on the ground.

Bowey was better than you are giving him credit for this season.

As much as kicking is important in that role for a slow play, I actually think we need someone with elite pace there. Someone like Saad or Hunt who can play on after a turnover and get a counterattack going.

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2 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

I hope you are correct, but I think Salem is past it. He has lost his drive, both in terms of acceleration and kicking penetration. There is no other position he can play either, because he is playing the easiest position on the ground.

Bowey was better than you are giving him credit for this season.

As much as kicking is important in that role for a slow play, I actually think we need someone with elite pace there. Someone like Saad or Hunt who can play on after a turnover and get a counterattack going.

I think that this year will be make or break for Salo, 2 years of interrupted football has left him below his 2021 best, but as long as he has a strong preseason I think he can return to form. We also have to remember a thyroid issue isn't as black and white as an injury. It messes up hormones and other systems that can take months to return to normal and have immense effect on an elite athlete's ability to perform at 100%.

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1 hour ago, Hawny for Gawny said:

I think that this year will be make or break for Salo, 2 years of interrupted football has left him below his 2021 best, but as long as he has a strong preseason I think he can return to form. We also have to remember a thyroid issue isn't as black and white as an injury. It messes up hormones and other systems that can take months to return to normal and have immense effect on an elite athlete's ability to perform at 100%.

Salem might be able to improve next year if his health is good but he will be turning 29. That said, Salem's attributes suit a slow, methodical game plan, which is what has failed us when it counts on the MCG two years running. Salem gets an armchair ride in his role and often has no opponent at midfield or forward stoppages. (This is by design because Goodwin loves the ball in his hands to make sure we secure a mark.) But I think we need to consider if the role would be better suited to a more athletic, faster player who could turnovers into faster counterattacks.

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3 hours ago, binman said:

Whitfield would have been great, but i am surprised at how how much heat Hunter has copped. I thought he was excellent this season - though his kicking was as good as i had hoped (it's funny how easily is it to over rate the skills of players from other clubs - i mean it makes sense, i don't watch other teams' game as intently or often as i do the dees - but its a bit like draft highlights)

I’d argue you don’t watch Dees games intently if you think Hunter’s kicking was good. It was dreadful. 

He lifted his contested work in the finals but unless we find a way to get him the ball more in space he’s just going to be looping the ball 30m down the line to no one.

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I am sure there will be a few Melbourne supporters giving their "2 cents worth" to Simon Goodwin, Jason Taylor and Tim Lamb at tonight's Best & Fairest about the types of players the Demons need to recruit.

The main priority is elite decision makers and excellent kicks! But I am confident they well and truly know that by now.

 

 

Edited by Supreme_Demon
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1 hour ago, binman said:

Whitfield would have been great, but i am surprised at how how much heat Hunter has copped. I thought he was excellent this season - though his kicking was as good as i had hoped (it's funny how easily is it to over rate the skills of players from other clubs - i mean it makes sense, i don't watch other teams' game as intently or often as i do the dees - but its a bit like draft highlights)

I was never a fan of getting Hunter and I would have preferred us playing others on the wing this year but he certainly was solid this year. I just don’t think he actually improved us or fixed any of our issues. But I know I am probably in the minority with my views on Hunter. 

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On 10/4/2023 at 8:01 PM, BW511 said:

I think throughout the year I also mentioned McCarthy and Bailey as the type of player we desperately need.

Half forwards who play as forwards first, are opportunistic and make their chances count. The Grand Final was the perfect example - I know they didn’t win but those guys (along with Joey) could not have done much more. 

Coleman has quickly become the player every team wants. He is sublime.
If I was creating a team from scratch, he’d almost be the first player I would pick. He executed all the way through the finals too, very classy player.

I think Wanganeen-Milera from the Saints is similar, at least he had a patch this year where he was.

It looks like Reid/McKercher/Duursma could play the Bailey role from Round 1 and if there is any chance the Oliver trade happens, we are guaranteed at least one of that trio. The flow on effect from this positional upgrade would be enormous

 

This was Salem in 2021. Maybe not as offensive, but played a similar role. 

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On 10/6/2023 at 2:25 PM, DeeSpencer said:

I’d argue you don’t watch Dees games intently if you think Hunter’s kicking was good. It was dreadful. 

He lifted his contested work in the finals but unless we find a way to get him the ball more in space he’s just going to be looping the ball 30m down the line to no one.

Typo, which i thought was pretty obvious given the context and my comments about over rating the skills of oppo players).

It should have read: 

I thought he was excellent this season - though his kicking wasn't as good as i had hoped

Edited by binman
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@Fat Tony
“Someone like Saad or Hunt who can play on after a turnover and get a counterattack going”. 

 

I recall someone called Hunt used to play with the Dees. He had decent run and rebound off half back.  Oh well we have Salo, Riv, Bowsa so I think the cattle are there to rebound just “need the courage to use the farknnnn corridor more”. ie not slow and wide. 

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