On 07/09/2023 at 13:28, DeeSpencer said:

Clarry’s developed his outside running game year on year and it’s important because it gives Tracc someone to one two with even with it ends with poor kicking, but he just hasn’t been near his best since the injury. Thought he played very well tonight but we need him to get back at least to 2021 ball use and ideally to go levels beyond that.

To be fair, that’s the concern for me, is that Petrarca and Oliver are both known for poor disposal, but yet you know 50-50 pass it to each other so ‘where’ is it in the game plan does this provide a positive for our team?

At years end if we don’t move on from Stafford and /or Yze then nothing will change from the last few years.

I just want to see Max hold up the cup on the G. Sadly we are wasting our chances 

  On 07/09/2023 at 13:35, McQueen said:

To be fair, that’s the concern for me, is that Petrarca and Oliver are both known for poor disposal, but yet you know 50-50 pass it to each other so ‘where’ is it in the game plan does this provide a positive for our team?

Because they get such tremendous burst from stoppage those kicks only have to go to 50/50’s and half decent forwards can snag a few of them. Fritter, BBB and co snagged more than a  few in 2021.

I’m less of a believer that Viney, Gus and Sparrow can be the 3 alongside them if they all play the majority as mids. We had Gus on the wing but it was also a Harmes miracle kick that set the onslaught going.

Maybe we keep all of Viney, Gus and Sparrow as on ballers but Gus is the 3rd winger, Tracc, Viney, Sparrow all play significant forward minutes and that opens a midfield spot for a classy user.

 

  On 07/09/2023 at 13:47, DeeSpencer said:

Because they get such tremendous burst from stoppage those kicks only have to go to 50/50’s and half decent forwards can snag a few of them. Fritter, BBB and co snagged more than a  few in 2021.

I’m less of a believer that Viney, Gus and Sparrow can be the 3 alongside them if they all play the majority as mids. We had Gus on the wing but it was also a Harmes miracle kick that set the onslaught going.

Maybe we keep all of Viney, Gus and Sparrow as on ballers but Gus is the 3rd winger, Tracc, Viney, Sparrow all play significant forward minutes and that opens a midfield spot for a classy user.

 

Yeah look, I think I like your line of thinking and pretty much that’s the reason we why we got Lachie Hunter in on that wing but it just hasn’t been enough of a strength. 
 

But on topic… where do the goals come from after the midfield lock it in?

We have lost our 8 games this season by a combined total of 77 points. Our forward wastefulness has cost us plenty. 

 

Our gameplan prevents us from having decent inside 50s. Until we start to take brave kicks through the corridor occasionally, we will be too easy to defend against. We are just too predictable.

  On 07/09/2023 at 13:56, John Crow Batty said:

We have lost our 8 games this season by a combined total of 77 points. Our forward wastefulness has cost us plenty. 

2019 and 2020 were wasted years

2022 and 2023 are heading in the same direction, but even more painfully

In my view Stafford has to go, forward line is a joke. No movement, and yes we also get it in slow but it’s easier to get it in there fast if there are targets moving for you. Painful to watch, and every time the pies shot forward in the first half there’s a forward one on one in space. Kill me.

Are we wasting the premiership era? Well we have a flag so it’s not a total bust. That makes us a good team imo. Great teams win multiple flags (Brisbane, Geelong, Hawthorn, Richmond). People remember the great teams, they don’t remember the one-and-done’s. We’ve got 3 weeks to get to great but it’s going to take a major change in thinking about how the forwards move and I don’t think there’s time.

Can we go again next year if we bow out in a semi or prelim this year? Yes but it gets harder, and we need some fresh blood. We clearly hoped (I certainly did) that BBB and TMac had more in them, that was wrong. We needed a key forward, couldn’t get one so tried Grundy, hasn’t worked. Annoying bit is we can almost get it done with the personnel we have, but not if 18 players are standing flat footed inside 50 every time we go forward. We’re almost great. 

69 I50s to 37.

Says it all.

  On 07/09/2023 at 13:55, McQueen said:

Yeah look, I think I like your line of thinking and pretty much that’s the reason we why we got Lachie Hunter in on that wing but it just hasn’t been enough of a strength. 
 

But on topic… where do the goals come from after the midfield lock it in?

One thing we do is on repeat forward stoppages is we drop Gawn out and we pull our wings back and are incredibly defensive in set up. Often allowing the opposition 2 spare at the  ball ups.

If we sent Max in or sent the wings in (or both) we would be a better chance of scoring from forward 50 entries.

We’d also be able to get more effective pressure on the opposition outlet kicks. Which would force out on the fulls or even better rushed corridor dump kicks that can be intercepted either in scoring range or with the option to hit up targets or both sides of the mark.

So many times when we have a forward 50 stoppage we end up with the opposition getting a nice long clearing kick that goes to Gawn/May/Lever 60m from goal.

That’s a good defensive position to kill  counter attacks but a lousy chance of scoring.

 

  On 07/09/2023 at 14:08, Fromgotowoewodin said:

In my view Stafford has to go, forward line is a joke. No movement, and yes we also get it in slow but it’s easier to get it in there fast if there are targets moving for you. Painful to watch, and every time the pies shot forward in the first half there’s a forward one on one in space. Kill me.

Are we wasting the premiership era? Well we have a flag so it’s not a total bust. That makes us a good team imo. Great teams win multiple flags (Brisbane, Geelong, Hawthorn, Richmond). People remember the great teams, they don’t remember the one-and-done’s. We’ve got 3 weeks to get to great but it’s going to take a major change in thinking about how the forwards move and I don’t think there’s time.

Can we go again next year if we bow out in a semi or prelim this year? Yes but it gets harder, and we need some fresh blood. We clearly hoped (I certainly did) that BBB and TMac had more in them, that was wrong. We needed a key forward, couldn’t get one so tried Grundy, hasn’t worked. Annoying bit is we can almost get it done with the personnel we have, but not if 18 players are standing flat footed inside 50 every time we go forward. We’re almost great. 

Lots of big questions there to be fair mate but all very valid. 
 

No doubt we have the midfield mix for at least three or four more years -maybe five of peak performance. Unfortunately Max might only have two or three years and beyond that where are we? We all know that Max is more than just a Ruckman and anyone filling his shoes will need gigantic feet.
In the forward line - well this is the point of this thread - it’s not like assistant and when you look at the the key pillars in the back you have Jake Lever and Steve, May and Maisy is almost you know maybe one or two more years so God, it’s it’s hard to work out. 

Might be time for bed

  On 07/09/2023 at 13:02, Jjrogan said:

We have the worst kicking efficiency in the competition into 50. Dead last. That's the only thing we are even bottom 8 in.   Put whomever you want up there, it's the players kicking it in there, their vision and how they are instructed to kick it in there that has to change. Was hoping Hunter would make a difference but he quite often he doesn't kick to the right spots either. It makes the forward's life very difficult.  

Until we move on from Trac, Oliver and Viney, my opinion is it won't change.  McVee should have been given some midfield time this year.  It doesn't kill to try such things. 10 minutes on the ball won't see our entire game plan fall apart.  Too late in the season now. 

We can still kick well for the next month and win it. That's what separates us winning and losing. Our contest and defense are there every week, our kicking skills are not. 

This!!!

Anyone who speaks about the forward line is letting off players like Trac, Oliver, Viney and co. Champion players, they are the reason we dominate contested ball, but they are also the reason we are so poor going inside 50. It's pretty damn simple. Work out who kicks the ball the most going inside 50 and those players are the ones causing the issue. 

What's crazy is, to my mind anyway, it doesn't seem that hard a fix at all. Isn't it just a case of Trac, Clarry, Viney being instructed as follows... "Ok guys, next match, when you're bursting out of stoppage towards our fifty, instead of doing dump kicks to packs, this time we're going to take that extra second, lower your eyes and survey the scene, and pass it to whoever is best placed to mark. And likewise, forwards, this time we want you leading to space when our midfielders are streaming towards fifty and about to kick. Just like you did throughout the 2021 granny (apart from the brief period where you started bombing it in.. but even then, remember, you soon reverted to good habits and better entries")

Done!

Maybe I'm missing something..

  On 07/09/2023 at 12:42, DeeSpencer said:

Midfield don’t run, link and kick with any reliability. So the forwards don’t know how or when to lead. And we know tonight’s group aren’t very good.

Need midfield polish. Need key forwards. Need at least another medium forward with class too.

Our brand stacks up, can’t throw out the vital importance of strong body contested mids. Just missing someone other than Tracc who can break it open and more guys who can give and get 

The lack of link up run and give and get chains stood out like dog's balls.

We could not chain the ball for more than a few possessions last night. 

Horrific and so many fumbles & brain farts made by too many seasoned players in the first three quarters.

And that missing midfield 'someone' needs to be able to finish & kick a few goals at times, especially when things aren't going so well and on a big stage.

Someone on the outside but who can also win it and finish in congestion/traffic.

Treloar an example of the type of player we are desperately lacking.

The forward line and it's lack of method/craft is also costing this club badly.

2022 down the gurgler as a result and 2023 looking like another lost opportunity.

Goodwin has his head in the sand on this last part.  Can't believe he doesn't acknowledge this as an issue for us.

Injuries no doubt haven't helped but our ball use, delivery, forward craft (bar Fritta, Melk & Petty) and finish (especially our mids) is mostly crud.

The move after half time surely had to be Kozzy into the middle for CBs and Tracc forward.

For the life of me i can't understand why Goodwin didn't try this in the second half?????

Maybe he did for a short stint and i missed it before we reverted back to Tracc in the middle again??

Tracc isn't accountable enough to be playing anything but minority CBAs (somewhere around the 70/30 forward/CBA mark).  His opponents get off the leash with too much space far too often at CBs and he's much more dangerous/effective playing the majority of his time inside 50 and around the arc imv.

  On 07/09/2023 at 13:58, Graeme Yeats' Mullet said:

 

There you have it.

 

Our two talls in Tmac and Jvr cannot seem to stand and take a pack mark.

Jvr is still developing and finals is a new experience.  Tmac needs to retire.

There was no room for our crumbers or for Fritta to lead.

Pies had a plethora of players back inside our fifty all night. Our slow movement allowed them to do this. They on the other hand took the pill into their fwd 50 at break neck speed. It was embarrassing.

What the hell is it with our slow starts?

Why does Trac always require an hour before he can get going?

Our mids were all asleep in the first half. It's not like it hasn't happened  before. I would have thought the Gus ko would have snapped them out of it. Probably Vineys most quiet game of the year.

Sadly despite our poor performance our non existing fwd line let us down again. That and a man down. Plus poor kicking at goal is somthing that has plagued us all year but we don't fix it. 

Also Chandler hasn't played well for eons. Shouldn't have been playing. I also don't know what has happened  to Salo but he's looked lost for the last 7 games. Lever pumping players up when he should have just worried about his own game. I don't think he laid a single tackle.

 

It's a long road back with Carlton and then an interstate final and I can't see anything changing with our lack of decent forwards. Apologies to Fritta who has had only two games in three months.

I think this is another year wasted with this list but I'm thinking the list isn't as great as I thought.

Langdon has vanished this year.

Hunter was a non game.

Kozzie is way too inconsistent. 

Salo is a shadow of his old self.

Smith is a sub.

Chandler is no Bedford.

Laurie should never have been the sub. That's all on you Goody. Stupid choice of a kid with 5 games.

Tmac enough said.

Sparrow can play elsewhere.

Jvr is good but he's still a rookie.

Lever has been very average.

We lost last year because our fwd line collapsed and the club didn't do any recruiting to change things.

Also do we need to bring in a motivational speaker ten mins before each game. The difference bw the state of mind and intent from the Pies was huge. Although if seeing Gus knocked out doesn't inspire you then I don't know what would.

Credit to Max and May and Bowey for a 4 quarter effort.

Trac and Oliver were great the second half but I would much rather them both be good for a whole game than a cameo later on when the deficit is too big. It seems to be a pattern now especially with Trac. He could have been a contender for Browlow this year but has dropped off remarkably in the last 5 games. It's clearly a concentration issue for him. 

This club reminds me of Footscray and I can't see us winning another flag for a long time. Seems like one was more than enough for half of them.

I know we only just loss but that's what makes it so bad. Why do we only play for a half? And why are some players consistently poor?

That is a poor reflection on the more than a few for sure.

Also I wish we would just shut up shop as a club at times. I've seen us so many times talking things up in the media how we are ready, we have changed. Evolved and LEARNT. 

That we are ready for this and that.  From both players and coach. Tge media love it and we do it every single time. Maybe we even believe our own bs.

Can't we just have a media strike for a couple of bloody days and do the talking with the ball. 

We can't,  because we haven't changed. 

 

Edited September 7, 20231 yr by leave it to deever

In hindsight, Spargo may have made the difference in setting up forwards.  His delivery is usually pretty sound into forward 50. I'm not sure if that was the game for him though.

I think the problem is that our forwards are moving too much. They should play more like intercept defenders and just read the kick inside 50 off the boot rather than leading and putting themselves out of position. Why do you think Petty has been so effective as a forward? LoL

Also, please bring in a real forward coach, somebody like a Stevie J who can teach our small forward how to crumb. It's almost as big a flaw in our game as the slow, high, predictable kick to the forward pocket.

It’s worth noting that when Brayshaw went down Tracc had to play more midfield minutes. Much more.

Tracc forward, and one on one for longer, would have helped us a lot. They didn’t have a good match up for him.

Once Gus went down we became much easier to coach against as we had less options.

It’s looking that way. Out of all the chances we had if we had of converted 2 more we are in a prelim 

  On 07/09/2023 at 15:43, Lloyd said:

What's crazy is, to my mind anyway, it doesn't seem that hard a fix at all. Isn't it just a case of Trac, Clarry, Viney being instructed as follows... "Ok guys, next match, when you're bursting out of stoppage towards our fifty, instead of doing dump kicks to packs, this time we're going to take that extra second, lower your eyes and survey the scene, and pass it to whoever is best placed to mark. And likewise, forwards, this time we want you leading to space when our midfielders are streaming towards fifty and about to kick. Just like you did throughout the 2021 granny (apart from the brief period where you started bombing it in.. but even then, remember, you soon reverted to good habits and better entries")

Done!

Maybe I'm missing something..

What's missing was some decent forward craft where there was nobody leading most of the time and all our fwds standing next to each other.

And also for the first hour of the game I didn't see much bursting forward. I saw our mids 20 m away from the ball most of the time. For 2 quarters our midfield was totally pantsed. They were horrible. And then at half time they decided to start to apply themselves

Apart from Viney its been a pattern for a while now. Strange.