Ben Brown and our forward line transition

[McQueen 17,864]

Okay so I’m pretty open to ideas here.

But seriously, wtf is Ben Brown (you know he’s our key forward)  doing in the VFL?
Is this a transition period where we are blooding the likes of JVR and the fact we’ve brought Chandler into the game and all of a sudden you know Fritsch is having a couple of very ordinary games. Spargo goes out of the team as well and the ‘controlled entry’ to our forward line scoring attempts is severely impacted.
It seems either a ‘wing-it’ approach or a meticulously planned in-season strategy.
I believe we’re in a real state of transition and it’s all part of a very carefully planned strategy to keeps this club at the top for an extended period.

Keen to hear what other people think. Cheers 

McQ

[rpfc 28,262]

I think they are giving Petty and JVR time before the season heats up. I’m glad they are trying things.

But whoever they want to go with - we can’t carry two young KPFs finding their way. Our only hope in my eyes is managing Brown to be there in August and September and make sure he can manage the load with one of them. 

And then get busy in October… maybe dangle ND6 at a few clubs…

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,799]

II agree with McQueen.

I think we are blooding JVR and Petty forward against some of the weaker teams early in the season.

IMHO it's great that JVR is getting some time and exposure at the top level and while I see great potential in how he plays, he's not a mature player or finished product and I don't feel he's ready to take charge and carry the forward line just yet.  He does a few good things in patches, but largely goes missing the rest of the game and against the stronger teams in the comp, I think he'd really struggle.  My impression is that his contribution further up the ground is substantially less than T Mac or even Brown just at the moment.  I do like the way he attacks the ball and is generally a pretty clean one grab mark.  He's a tall, well toned and not as weedy as the Weid, but I feel he's not yet reached his physical maturity as a KPF and when he does, I think he'll be the better for it.

I've found Petty's impact as a forward a little disappointing (perhaps because I had really high expectations of what he might be able to do).  He's as tough and honest as they come and he competes well in the air, but doesn't actually take as many marks or kick enough goals as I think we need from a key forward.  Also don't think he provides that link player leading up towards wing/half back as T Mac / BBB.  We've clearly tried to be more attacking in our game style this year as well as try a few different players, which is great, but I think our defense has suffered as a result and missing Petty back there is part of that to me.  For me Petty is currently a much better defender than forward and I'd like to see him back there sooner rather than later, to start consolidating our defensive game again and become that really miserly team to play against again, because that's what won us a flag and I think could win us another one.

Incidentally, I thought it was a bad decision to sub Harmes in for Turner in the last quarter.  Getting Harmes into the game was the right thing as he would have helped inject some extra run, but I thought Turner was just starting to find some confidence and a bit more of the ball in the second half, which would have been good to build on.

[picket fence 17,048]

5 hours ago, McQueen said:

Okay so I’m pretty open to ideas here.

But seriously, wtf is Ben Brown (you know he’s our key forward)  doing in the VFL?
Is this a transition period where we are blooding the likes of JVR and the fact we’ve brought Chandler into the game and all of a sudden you know Fritsch is having a couple of very ordinary games. Spargo goes out of the team as well and the ‘controlled entry’ to our forward line scoring attempts is severely impacted.
It seems either a ‘wing-it’ approach or a meticulously planned in-season strategy.
I believe we’re in a real state of transition and it’s all part of a very carefully planned strategy to keeps this club at the top for an extended period.

Keen to hear what other people think. Cheers 

McQ

Agree with your second and third line. Petty is NOT a forward and if BBB is fit and regardless of what he does at Casey he plays in the ones week in week out. JVR Cameos arent enough and T Mac is cooked.As I have said for time immemorial JOEL SMITH should also be played as a forward when he gets his chance.You wont see Bailey Fritsch have another shocker like last niĝht,either!

[Ollie fan 3,370]

To me, the starting point is that we are the second highest scoring team in the league – by four points, to Geelong, who have such advantages. Our attack is doing pretty well!!

 

I have said all season that the problem with BBB is that when the ball goes to ground, he is lost.  He is too slow, he cannot defend, and his opponent is often a very powerful attacking force against us. Witness Harris Andrews when we played Brisbane, even though BBB kicked four goals.

 

Witness Harris Andrews when we played Brisbane, even though BBB kicked four goals.

 

Is Petty not being down back the reason that we are not defending as well? Maybe. Or perhaps teams have learned that the only way to score against us is to move the ball in hard, low and fast, and they are doing that to some effect.

 

I think JVR has to be given a rest because he is young , but I think TMac gives us more just with his preparedness to run all day. But I think the current tactic of shifting our team every week has real benefits in creating unpredictability. Let’s face it, Max as a key forward has quite a lot to offer.

 

Finally, I agree that Turner should have stayed on - after being completely thrashed early, he was really starting to show a little bit.

[adonski 11,813]

A criminal investigation on why BBB was not immediately recalled post injury is needed. 9 goals in his first three games.

Suspect Simon will realise that was the wrong move to leave him out circa round 12 2024

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,115]

Whilst I think BBB will come in, be careful what you wish for being Mac Andrew was knocking him off contests yesterday. 

JVR does not get much ball other than in patches nor does Petty but not many teams defeat us in an aerial contest in our forward 50. I think that is the bit that matters most to the coaches and is why we are averaging 110points a game.

[dazzledavey36 54,277]

Don't think Ben Brown is the answer to our forward line issues. He's past his best.

What he does do well is draw an extra defender or two in the AFL. I believe this would relieve much needed pressure on JVR who at times had Collin and Ballard on him. Tough ask for a kid.

Petty doesn't attract the better defenders like Brown does, and that's why the forward experiment needs to stop immediately. 

I think Brown comes in next week and I'd just leave him there for now to build momentum and form.

[Jaded No More 68,867]

Petty is not giving us enough up forward to justify how much we miss him down back. The defense is all at sea and we need him down there to help out May. 
 

BB might not be the answer but neither is robbing our backline. 

[Kick_It_To_Pickett 3,291]

54 minutes ago, Ollie fan said:

To me, the starting point is that we are the second highest scoring team in the league – by four points, to Geelong, who have such advantages. Our attack is doing pretty well!!

 

I have said all season that the problem with BBB is that when the ball goes to ground, he is lost.  He is too slow, he cannot defend, and his opponent is often a very powerful attacking force against us. Witness Harris Andrews when we played Brisbane, even though BBB kicked four goals.

 

Witness Harris Andrews when we played Brisbane, even though BBB kicked four goals.

 

Interesting, as I would love to know what on earth Petty offers at ground level that Ben Brown doesn’t…Petty can’t hold a grab in the forward half, and is lost at ground level. He has had no idea of how to mind defensive space when the opposition have the ball. Constantly standing in no man’s land - a major reason why the Suns were able to pick their way through from their defensive half last night. They easily bounced out of defence, which was a major concern.

Edited May 6, 2023 by Kick_It_To_Pickett

[Dee Viney Intervention 1,924]

Brown in to take the better defenders and relieve pressure on JVR and use his height to hopefully draw free kicks. But he needs to start showing more intensity and if not then I would consider going smaller with Melksham with our mids instructed to lower the eyes. Some serious heat needs to go onto the rest of the forward line to apply pressure down there because Ben Brown won’t. Zero tackles again from Bailey is not good enough whether he impacts the scoreboard or not. 

[Diamond_Jim 12,539]

32 minutes ago, Lil_red_fire_engine said:

Whilst I think BBB will come in, be careful what you wish for being Mac Andrew was knocking him off contests yesterday.

Agree. If not for some free kicks his day at Casey would have been sub par.

Once again though delivery was terrible

Not sure that Joel Smith is the answer. He's an opportunistic high flyer not a strong bodied bring to ground type forward

[bluey 1,089]

Having no injuries has created an issue.

A good time to sort through the chaff.

[Kent 2,906]

1 hour ago, Ollie fan said:

To me, the starting point is that we are the second highest scoring team in the league – by four points, to Geelong, who have such advantages. Our attack is doing pretty well!!

 

I have said all season that the problem with BBB is that when the ball goes to ground, he is lost.  He is too slow, he cannot defend, and his opponent is often a very powerful attacking force against us. Witness Harris Andrews when we played Brisbane, even though BBB kicked four goals.

 

Witness Harris Andrews when we played Brisbane, even though BBB kicked four goals.

 

Is Petty not being down back the reason that we are not defending as well? Maybe. Or perhaps teams have learned that the only way to score against us is to move the ball in hard, low and fast, and they are doing that to some effect.

 

I think JVR has to be given a rest because he is young , but I think TMac gives us more just with his preparedness to run all day. But I think the current tactic of shifting our team every week has real benefits in creating unpredictability. Let’s face it, Max as a key forward has quite a lot to offer.

 

Finally, I agree that Turner should have stayed on - after being completely thrashed early, he was really starting to show a little bit.

Harmes for Hunter Never seen a player so bad for 4 quarters

[Jeremy 981]

Petty is our best defender. Pretty simple he plays there for mine. Gone past May who let’s face it, is in pretty ordinary form 

[Jaded No More 68,867]

3 minutes ago, Kent said:

Harmes for Hunter Never seen a player so bad for 4 quarters

At least Hunter got involved. Where was Langdon?

[NeveroddoreveN 1,034]

45 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Don't think Ben Brown is the answer to our forward line issues. He's past his best.

What he does do well is draw an extra defender or two in the AFL. I believe this would relieve much needed pressure on JVR who at times had Collin and Ballard on him. Tough ask for a kid.

Petty doesn't attract the better defenders like Brown does, and that's why the forward experiment needs to stop immediately. 

I think Brown comes in next week and I'd just leave him there for now to build momentum and form.

So.....he is past his best but should be included ASAP to play 1sts regardless of form?  

 

[picket fence 17,048]

2 minutes ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

So.....he is past his best but should be included ASAP to play 1sts regardless of form?  

 

Dazz s reasoning is sound. He plays for the forseable future!

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,799]

Another disadvantage of playing both Petty and JVR forward right now is that it's the blind leading the blind in terms of forward craft leadership.

Say all you want against BBBs unwieldyness when the ball his the ground, but he is crafty and knows where to position himself and move if he misses a mark and often gets involved in scoring chains if he misses a mark.  Whether he feeds it on through a handball / knock on or just running to the right spot to receive and kick an opporunistic goal, he's crafty as a forward where Petty frankly isn't on current evidence to date.

We need someone like BBB to be mentoring and leading JVR in these aspects of playing forward that being an experienced forward at the MFC brings.  If it's not BBB, the T Mac or Melksham would be just as good IMHO.  T Mac is a leader and student of the game and has the presence that someone like JVR would respect.  I'm not sure exactly what's up with T Mac at the moment as his practice match form looked pretty good to me as he has in patches at AFL level.  Although he may not have taken that many contested marks in the season proper, I still think he'd contest and bring the ball to ground just as well as Petty up forward.  And Tommy has good goal sense and forward craft in general.

Edited May 6, 2023 by Rodney (Balls) Grinter

[Redleg 40,834]

Whatever we do, we need an experienced key forward playing with JVR.

We only have two. One is injured and both are near the end.

[NeveroddoreveN 1,034]

24 minutes ago, picket fence said:

Dazz s reasoning is sound. He plays for the forseable future!

I actually disagree with his inclusion  He has been woeful playing for Casey last few matches.

Watching Tmac and BB not bringing the ball to ground on repeat has been main issue why both are not playing.  They are both liabilities when the ball hits the ground and repeatedly their opponents are rebounding directly off them.

With JVR and Petty they are not letting the cheap intercepts happen all day long.  Both are competitive when the ball hits the grounds through bumps/tackles.   I don't think Tmac or BB offer much in these areas.

Our forward line is functioning pretty well and a big part of that is the fact that Petty is rarely getting beaten in contests, same with JVR, they halve a lot of the contests that they don't win. 

[dazzledavey36 54,277]

44 minutes ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

I actually disagree with his inclusion  He has been woeful playing for Casey last few matches.

Watching Tmac and BB not bringing the ball to ground on repeat has been main issue why both are not playing.  They are both liabilities when the ball hits the ground and repeatedly their opponents are rebounding directly off them.

With JVR and Petty they are not letting the cheap intercepts happen all day long.  Both are competitive when the ball hits the grounds through bumps/tackles.   I don't think Tmac or BB offer much in these areas.

Our forward line is functioning pretty well and a big part of that is the fact that Petty is rarely getting beaten in contests, same with JVR, they halve a lot of the contests that they don't win. 

Its functioning well because we've played poor teams with a poor defence. 

Come up against Geelong and Collingwood and we'll get smoked.

Petty is an absolute liability up forward and is robbing our defence with his ability to lock down and free Lever and May up.

I threw up Brown more from a tactical point of view to free up JVR in getting best and bigger defenders which he's copped the past few weeks.

Other then that we're completely bereft of other forward options.

[DeeSpencer 25,465]

The problem with a Brown and JVR combination is they are both full forwards (as much as anyone is a full forward these days). JVR doesn't find space on the lead and he struggles to out body opponents on long down the line kicks, all his best work is his ability to run and jump at the ball and his defensive pressure inside 50.

BBB can come up the ground to contest but we've seen him fatigue badly in that role last year. It's certainly better to have a CHF ahead of him.

Petty not going great guns by any means but he's shown the ability to cover the ground and create a contest and he's found a bit of footy on the lead too.

At the moment Petty seems to play CHF early in games and then Gawn seems to take that responsibility as the game goes on.

As for the backline I still maintain it's transition defending when the ball is on the ground (which can be helped by intercept marks but can also be helped by just being better at it) and the lack of run and skill to move the ball out cleanly that's coughing up scores. Stop butchering the ball or being so predictable with the rebound 50's and we defend just fine.

Caboult really got hold of Turner once? May and Lever weren't exactly destroyed. I'm not sure key back is some huge liability.

[DeeSpencer 25,465]

Also Brown missed a number of weeks through injury, it was reasonable to start him back at Casey to make sure could get through a game. As that happened others took his spot and he was ordinary at Casey. Why would that get him his spot back right away?

Spargo missed 2 weeks. Players are often sluggish and unsure of themselves when they return from concussions so a VFL hit out isn't unreasonable anyway. Meanwhile JJ played some good footy as the 3rd wing/5th mid/half forward which - whilst not like for like - pushed Spargo down the pecking order a bit. 

Come finals I think you pick your best possible team and don't get too emotional with selection. And you often back in veterans and guys who you know perform roles. But for round 9 it makes sense to me to pick fit players and reward someone like JJ.

[demon3165 2,711]

4 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Its functioning well because we've played poor teams with a poor defence. 

Come up against Geelong and Collingwood and we'll get smoked.

Petty is an absolute liability up forward and is robbing our defence with his ability to lock down and free Lever and May up.

I threw up Brown more from a tactical point of view to free up JVR in getting best and bigger defenders which he's copped the past few weeks.

Other then that we're completely bereft of other forward options.

Good points and reasoning, but my concern is still the game plan entries into the forward line, JVR is a kid and competes well but is not strong enough to compete in a pack situation yet.

On your statement on the forward options we saw that last year and yet we are doing the same thing as last year, should have gotten a forward line coach instead of a ruckman to do that who could teach JVR and others how to use the body and leading patterns etc.

As for the pies and cats if we keep doing that I agree we will get smoked because like the bombers and lions showed us what can happen when you play one side of the ground most of you players are there in the contest so they leave players out wide, so when they have control of the ball it goes straight to them and that creates loose men and easier entries into there forward line and we end up chasing tail all day.