Playing injured

[NeveroddoreveN 1,034]

35 minutes ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

… too bad that ridiculous thread is no longer available, huh. 
🙄 

edit: sorry NeveroddoreveN… I was up most of the night working in order to free up time for today’s match, therefore I’m grumpy. 
Note to self: don’t post on DL BEFORE coffee. 

No worries at all WCW! I should have not posted before my morning coffee either haha.

I love our team and think they can only get better. But to get to truly great levels i believe Simon will have to release the shackles and let them play with some sort of freedom.  

Maybe it is just me being weird..... Can defend the players until the end of time, just don't feel the same way about a head coach who was gifted a pretty amazing list.  Has Yze/Richardson/Choco possibly the best assistant coaches with senior experience around him.  

Will be forever thankful for that Premiership and Goodwin's role in helping us achieve it!

  Really just hope he keeps evolving as a coach...we have the talent within our list to win more Premierships and really should....Our future success will depend on how flexible Simon is when it comes down to it.

[rjay 24,916]

What a lot of people don't seem to understand. This is depth 101...

- Depth only covers your bottom 6 players

- Depth will never cover champions

- You do play champions when they are injured because in most cases they will give you more than what your depth can

- All clubs play injured players

- When the amount of (%) injuries mount up in your top10 players you are stuffed

Last years GF (and you will find stories in all GF's)  gives us some great case studies. The Swans played Reid, it was a gamble that failed...they played him as they had no one else that could do what he could. For them to win it was crucial for Reid to play his role which in part freed up Buddy to do his magic. It wasn't a great bet on past history, a very long odds gamble that didn't pay off.

Geelong played Hawkins, going into the finals series with a foot injury that has since been operated on. This bet payed off as they won the whole thing, Hawkins was instrumental in setting up the game and taking away the Swans belief...it might put an early end to his career yet but they gambled and won. They also had no one that could do what Hawkins can do.

[rjay 24,916]

6 minutes ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

Our future success will depend on how flexible Simon is when it comes down to it.

One of the modern myths in football...

[John Demonic 5,786]

38 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

Agreed.  We had a very good chance to win the semi but doubt we would have won a prelim given our injury list.

Nonetheless, a win in the semi would have saved a straight set exit and stopped the run of third/fourth quarter fade outs.

Although the odds were completely stacked against us, a rematch would've thrown Geelong a different 'mental' challenge than the one they got against Brisbane. Who knows, we could've cracked their spirits with some kicking accuracy in the 1st half. It's one of those what-ifs that I won't lose sleep over though. Similarly in 2018, what would've happened if we had a crack at the Tigers in that first qualifying Final, given our similar styles and knowing now that they had already spent most of their tickets in the regular season.

I'm kind of glad we went out in straight sets if the alternative was being smashed by Geelong by 10 goals though and handing them even the smallest of mental edges against us THIS year.

And there's still a little mystery going into this season knowing it's a referendum on the best team of the past 3 seasons and we did not lower our colours in last year's prelim, if both clubs meet in the GF this year.

 

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by John Demonic

[Ollie fan 3,370]

1 hour ago, rjay said:

What a lot of people don't seem to understand. This is depth 101...

- Depth only covers your bottom 6 players

- Depth will never cover champions

- You do play champions when they are injured because in most cases they will give you more than what your depth can

- All clubs play injured players

- When the amount of (%) injuries mount up in your top10 players you are stuffed

Last years GF (and you will find stories in all GF's)  gives us some great case studies. The Swans played Reid, it was a gamble that failed...they played him as they had no one else that could do what he could. For them to win it was crucial for Reid to play his role which in part freed up Buddy to do his magic. It wasn't a great bet on past history, a very long odds gamble that didn't pay off.

Geelong played Hawkins, going into the finals series with a foot injury that has since been operated on. This bet payed off as they won the whole thing, Hawkins was instrumental in setting up the game and taking away the Swans belief...it might put an early end to his career yet but they gambled and won. They also had no one that could do what Hawkins can do.

Completely agree with this. Eg fully fit Dunstan will never replace Clarry with an injured thumb.

And people forget how close we came to snatching that game back off Brisbane in the last 10 minutes.

[NeveroddoreveN 1,034]

51 minutes ago, rjay said:

One of the modern myths in football...

You don't think he has a huge role to play? 

I would say the head coach actually has more influence on success/failure than the talent of any list.

If it were up to the players for selection and gameplan they would all just pick themselves....the coach has a fair influence on the way a club performs, in fact he is the single biggest driving factor when it comes to success or failure.

Is he going to be rigid or flexible, who knows!!!?

Not sure this is in the modern myths of football category just simply because you don't agree with it!

 

[58er 6,422]

1 hour ago, rjay said:

What a lot of people don't seem to understand. This is depth 101...

- Depth only covers your bottom 6 players

- Depth will never cover champions

- You do play champions when they are injured because in most cases they will give you more than what your depth can

- All clubs play injured players

- When the amount of (%) injuries mount up in your top10 players you are stuffed

Last years GF (and you will find stories in all GF's)  gives us some great case studies. The Swans played Reid, it was a gamble that failed...they played him as they had no one else that could do what he could. For them to win it was crucial for Reid to play his role which in part freed up Buddy to do his magic. It wasn't a great bet on past history, a very long odds gamble that didn't pay off.

Geelong played Hawkins, going into the finals series with a foot injury that has since been operated on. This bet payed off as they won the whole thing, Hawkins was instrumental in setting up the game and taking away the Swans belief...it might put an early end to his career yet but they gambled and won. They also had no one that could do what Hawkins can do.

Swans had McLean for CHF RJ but because he played so well against us his marking outstanding they made the call when he looked even unfitter than any of our injured players in the semi to take the risk. 

we all know Reid has had multiple injuries in a 4/5 year period and his ability to impact varies greatly form day to day. But one thing that we did not do was to block him ( in both games last year). For example a player like Tmac with bulk would no better against him than even Petty or Lever. Injury to Tmac so we can't do that. 

Re Hawkins is (like May he can withstand some injury and play) and was probably like us being the only injury being risked on the day. 

When Hipwoof ran away in the last quarter from Lever and kicked goalwards in the Semi I realised we had run our race and we're out of petrol tickets.BUT rather belatedly Simon pulled Petty out of defence and if Kossey had kicked straight and Jake not had  brain fade ( result of playing constantly all season with suspect ankle/s ) who knows ?

Again ( in hindsight )this move should have been made at 3:4 time because the Bris defence is always vulnerable and our attack did not have many fit players left. BBB Trac Gawny etc. 

We have the right mix and need to use our players flexibly to our advantage. 

Agree with Neveroddoreven that this flexibility from the Coach is crucial and signs like Kossey and Riv to the midfield are promising. 

Can I suggest that Gus Petty Joel Smith Hunter JVR Tmac Trac Chandler Dunstan andWoey and Grundy plus Schache are all able to be moved to our advantage. We have trained some and that should be an evolving discipline from the Coaches. 

That also assists with the WE (AFL) myth that (VFL) THEM are not good enough to be played if needed when injury occurs. 

No one will ever know if we had made 2/3 changes or played our sub if we would have won but it is now official ( not perceived) that we were carrying increasing levels of injuries for the last half of 2023 which explains the fade outs IMO to a great extent. 

Thst we were able to win 16 Games finish 2nd on the ladder and be beaten by only 3 goals once ( except Freo) also indicates that we were very brave all our troops tried as hard as possible (even Jacko and albeit with some poor goalkicking also vs Pies and Lions in Semi) and in 5 years time that effort in hindsight might be lauded instead of disappointing us. 

Win another Flag or two is the way to go and we have taken our medicine ( not the Damian Barrett choking on our premiership Shiraz type of medicine) and 2023 seems a great year to rewrite our fortunes at the G. 

[Jaded No More 68,889]

May played with a 6cm hammy tear in the GF. Would you have wanted us to play Joel Smith instead knowing what we know now? No. 
 

In finals you take risks with your best players because they’re irreplaceable. What bugs me is that we got to this point in finals when we were 10-0 mid way through the season and yet still chose not to rest our best players as needed. 

[Vipercrunch 2,827]

3 hours ago, rjay said:

Name them...there was no one at Casey that would have made a difference that's why they went with what they had

 

I agree. I don’t think the gap between AFL and VFL has ever been bigger. 

[grazman 7,431]

4 hours ago, Lucifers Hero said:

Oliver (thumb/hand),

Clarrie also had a fractured cheekbone (maybe eye socket) I think as well. 

[Kent 2,909]

2 hours ago, rpfc said:

I remember talking about this last year and a few on here were lambasting me for suggesting that the club would be playing injured players.

Happens all the time and we had too many of them and should have looked at who could be replaced. 

I hope the FD sees the depth in a better light this year.

Yes and why did the doc go?

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,816]

3 hours ago, rjay said:

Name them...there was no one at Casey that would have made a difference that's why they went with what they had

 

We’ll start with a player that got 12 Brownlow votes for St Kilda in 2021 and absolutely ripped up a VFL final prior to the senior finals.

A fit Weideman on his night could’ve made a difference over an unfit BBB.

You’re probably right in that nobody from below would’ve made a huge difference.

However, we could’ve gotten inventive, brave and proactive at selection but we went with the same combination that ran out of petrol against Sydney in week 1.

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Bring-Back-Powell

[monoccular 17,418]

4 hours ago, Neil Crompton said:

With respect rjay, I’d prefer a fit average quality player to an unfit top 22 player for a crucial final any day of the week. At least they will run out the whole game, instead of collapsing in a heap after half time. If we did in fact have 5-6 injured players then that is incredibly bad luck. Playing those injured players in a final is incredibly poor management imv.

 

3 hours ago, loges said:

Thought it was obvious for a few weeks players were sore, even Kozzie was in a knee strapping. Not sure players from Casey had the quality. Player management needs to be better this year 

I guess one may get away with one or two slightly underdone stars in a final, but 6 is a hiding to nothing.

In retrospect, as many have already said and easy to say,  "resting / managing" some of these "niggles" to our stars mid season may have not only won us a few more games, but also given exposure and assessment at top level to those on the margins (eg JVR, who may have needed to step in and step up in the finals.

[rpfc 28,381]

52 minutes ago, Kent said:

Yes and why did the doc go?

Conflation. The Doctor delayed in getting some players in for post season surgeries prior to the 2019 season and hampered their preparation for that year.

[Demon Disciple 12,118]

9 hours ago, rjay said:

Unfortunately if there were 5 or 6 guys in the same position we didn't have the dice to roll.

We should’ve rolled the dice several weeks earlier by bringing in fresh players and given a rest to those that needed it.

I blame our finals capitulation squarely on the coaching department and not the players (they gave their all)

[rjay 24,916]

Just now, Demon Disciple said:

We should’ve rolled the dice several weeks earlier by bringing in fresh players and given a rest to those that needed it.

I blame our finals capitulation squarely on the coaching department and not the players (they gave their all)

How could we, we were fighting for a place in the top 4.

Again, name the changes you would have made and tell me why they would have made us better?

[titan_uranus 24,992]

1 hour ago, Jaded No More said:

May played with a 6cm hammy tear in the GF. Would you have wanted us to play Joel Smith instead knowing what we know now? No. 
 

In finals you take risks with your best players because they’re irreplaceable. What bugs me is that we got to this point in finals when we were 10-0 mid way through the season and yet still chose not to rest our best players as needed. 

Our fixture didn't allow us to rest players after the bye.

The only real chance we had was in the WC-North fortnight.

The back half of our year was top 8 side after top 8 side, 8-point games every week, with our top 4 spot on the line. If we'd rested players we had every chance of slipping down the ladder. 

1 hour ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

We’ll start with a player that got 12 Brownlow votes for St Kilda in 2021 and absolutely ripped up a VFL final prior to the senior finals.

A fit Weideman on his night could’ve made a difference over an unfit BBB.

You’re probably right in that nobody from below would’ve made a huge difference.

However, we could’ve gotten inventive, brave and proactive at selection but we went with the same combination that ran out of petrol against Sydney in week 1.

Meanwhile how did Dunstan and Weideman do in 2022 when they played senior football?

Neither had performed at AFL level all year. 

You can throw as many "proactive" buzzwords into your post as you want but we saw during the season that players like these precise two weren't able to play at the required level when previously called upon. As others have already pointed out, the evidence in front of the FD at the time meant that rolling the dice with the injured better players was a more than reasonable call.

 

[Demonsone 2,037]

1 minute ago, rjay said:

How could we, we were fighting for a place in the top 4.

Again, name the changes you would have made and tell me why they would have made us better?

It’s done now but surprised after Swans loss that no changes were made eg Bedford as our fwd line wasn’t working and not playing injured players, obviously Goody & co didn’t rate any Casey players who only lost 1 game for the season. 

[rjay 24,916]

1 hour ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

We’ll start with a player that got 12 Brownlow votes for St Kilda in 2021 and absolutely ripped up a VFL final prior to the senior finals.

A fit Weideman on his night could’ve made a difference over an unfit BBB.

You’re probably right in that nobody from below would’ve made a huge difference.

However, we could’ve gotten inventive, brave and proactive at selection but we went with the same combination that ran out of petrol against Sydney in week 1.

 

Dunstan, a player that the Saints moved on despite those votes.

He had played 5 games for us, no votes and wasn't able to reach anything like that 12 vote form.

He's purely a break glass player...

Weid, been tried enough.

Making changes would not have helped and may have made us worse.

[rjay 24,916]

1 minute ago, Demonsone said:

It’s done now but surprised after Swans loss that no changes were made eg Bedford as our fwd line wasn’t working and not playing injured players, obviously Goody & co didn’t rate any Casey players who only lost 1 game for the season. 

No, you can't get off that easily.

So many are blaming Goodwin & the FD when I believe they had no realistic options.

If you are going to blame the FD as you did then tell us what changes you would have made?

...and why they would have made us better.

Not just say as others have, bring in fresh legs.

We could have brought in Chandler or Bedford but neither would have changed our fortunes, that would be fiddling around the edges.

At the end of the day, you can't replace champions, that's why they're champions...

[Bay Riffin 1,474]

2 hours ago, Jaded No More said:

May played with a 6cm hammy tear in the GF. Would you have wanted us to play Joel Smith instead knowing what we know now? No. 
 

In finals you take risks with your best players because they’re irreplaceable. What bugs me is that we got to this point in finals when we were 10-0 mid way through the season and yet still chose not to rest our best players as needed. 

was just about to type that with all the whingeing of playing injured players.

How many here would have wanted us to omit May for the Grand Final ?

[Palace Dees 2,311]

I really hope players don't have to do a 5th quarter (30 mins running) post game in 30° heat like they did last week. Only one thing can come from that.

[58er 6,422]

3 minutes ago, Bay Riffin said:

was just about to type that with all the whingeing of playing injured players.

How many here would have wanted us to omit May for the Grand Final ?

We are not talking about 2021 it was one player but 2022 is different entirely. We had up to HALF (9/10) carrying various niggles/ breaks/ sprains / etc.  it's entirely different. 

What  I have lamented that over 10 Rounds our healthy situation was progressively worsened by these injuries resulting in virtually no proactive changes  in selection despite continual players at Casey showing promising and continual form and with ANB Spargo Hunt and BBB to name 4 who could have been dropped and others given an opportunity.  In the end it was too  late to experiment or give chances. Also too many players returned to AFL too early without hit outs in the Casey team. Salem and Rivers to name 2. Both with  Lever injured ( ankles mainly) nearly every game all 3 had underwhelming seasons compared to 2021. Same same result all not anywhere near best. 

Thats 7 named plus Gawny Clarry Jacko as others not completely fit. 

To not try when the fade outs continued was disappointing with the 2021 team being asked to repeat with the malfunctions in fitness and form. 

I agsin say that we were very resilient in hindsight for the Hand A 2nd place. But Finals we couldn't go up a notch when the whips were cracking. 

Conservative selection and coaching plus the above fitness issues IMO held us to mediocrity potentially. 

we are now in the position to rectify our efforts ( every one tried their damdest btw in 2022)  in 2023 with a fit and firing improved list to challenge the elite teams of the AFL. 

[rjay 24,916]

4 minutes ago, 58er said:

Thats 7 named plus Gawny Clarry Jacko as others not completely fit. 

It's easy to name the players struggling with injury.

Now name the players you would replace them with and tell me how they would make us better?

[Brownie 5,980]

25 minutes ago, rjay said:

It's easy to name the players struggling with injury.

Now name the players you would replace them with and tell me how they would make us better?

It's not about being better as such, it's about running out games. This game is more and more about fitness.

We had multiple injuries to multiple players in the second half of the season and I think we should have rested them and played some of our not so better players to....

1. Develop them and build their confidence

2. Rest our key players to play finals even if we ended up in 6th or 7th position.

The likes of.

Smith, Tomlinson, Turner, Mcvee, Chandler, Bedford and Especially JVR should have been stepping up to rest our key injured players.

It shows inflexibility by the coach.

Most importantly I look at this situation and think what does it say to someone like JVR?

If he doesn't get selected again in round one this year what is he going to be thinking?

"What more do I have to do to get a game when there's blokes out there on one leg falling apart in the second half?"

We talk about him being our future key forward.

Will he stay at the next contract renewal?

Some of these players should have been given a chance to step up and our key players fitness and injuries should have been managed more effectively.

We probably weren't destined to win a granny last year but we should have swung the changes in the back half of the season. That's a better roll of the dice rather than running our players into the ground IMHO.