POSTGAME: SF vs Brisbane

[IRW 1,386]

7 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

Yes, but he doesn’t actually work on and address anything…Just turns up to press conferences  and says there were lots of “learnings” and we “need to be better for longer” and improve our inside 50 connection 

He is an exceedingly uninteresting interviewee.

With most coaches you get insights, glimpses of personality or at least a touch of "madness"

[mo64 5,853]

1 hour ago, Webber said:

Two associated salient facts that beg for explanation - 

1. On a ladder of ‘second half only’ results from Round 11, we came 16th, above only North and West Coast. This is frankly staggering considering how obvious and contrary it is to fact 2.
2. Ladder of first halves for same Rounds, top 4. 
 
Which confirms the following. Firstly, many of the factors people are blaming for our season demise are simply not a problem in the first half of those games - skill, pressure, forward connection, etc. Secondly, something went drastically and horribly awry in our planning and processes for the second half of the season to be a bottom 3 performer in second halves of games. 
 

Anyone any theories? And I’d beware making statements about fact 1 that are contradicted by fact 2. 

I have a theory, and I don't think that fitness levels has anything to do with it. 

Our game plan revolves around winning contests and locking the ball into our forward 50. It requires an enormous amount of effort on the part of the mids and the forwards. With the talent we have, we build up a sizeable lead and yet invariably concede late goals before half time. The scoreboard at half time rarely reflects our dominance.

At half time Goody addresses the players and tells them that we have the game on our terms. The opposition coaches of better sides will tell their players that it's impossible for Melbourne to continue at that intensity, and a 3-4 goal deficit is not insurmountable.

Once the opposition get within a goal or two in the second half, it's almost game over. But I think it's more psychological than physical. 

I honestly believe that our players are not fully invested in our negative game plan, because they are not getting scoreboard reward for effort. Once that opposition have neutralised the game around the contests and the scoreboard, it all becomes too hard for our players to go again.

The players have an ego/arrogance after winning last years flag. But they're coached to defend rather than show their talents. I think the players have lost the motivation to grind a game for 120 minutes on the back of the 2021 flag.

Coaches like Paul Roos and Ross Lyon have limited shelf life at one club. Their game plans are too mentally gruelling on the players. If Goodwin wants a long tenure at the Dees, he needs to look at John Longmire, who's evolved from a negative coach to a positive coach. He's weeded out the "try hards" from the team, and replaced them with skilful players who also give effort. 

And after listening to all of the Burgess/Brukner podcasts in that last off-season, Burgo's role in the mental side of the game cannot be understated.

[DeeZee 7,361]

Rivers Salem and Hunt were so bad, it was like we played the game with no half backs.

We have a good engine room , but took away a huge strength all year when Brayshaw was down back.

No really need to take him away from defense , he was a star there.

[frankie_d 1,471]

2 hours ago, Webber said:

Two associated salient facts that beg for explanation - 

1. On a ladder of ‘second half only’ results from Round 11, we came 16th, above only North and West Coast. This is frankly staggering considering how obvious and contrary it is to fact 2.
2. Ladder of first halves for same Rounds, top 4. 
 
Which confirms the following. Firstly, many of the factors people are blaming for our season demise are simply not a problem in the first half of those games - skill, pressure, forward connection, etc. Secondly, something went drastically and horribly awry in our planning and processes for the second half of the season to be a bottom 3 performer in second halves of games. 
 

Anyone any theories? And I’d beware making statements about fact 1 that are contradicted by fact 2. 

This is a very important observation.

Last year, we were the best third quarter team in the competition. 

[dees189227 12,368]

But isn't this typical Melbourne? This is what this club does to us. Forever disappoints & breaks our hearts.

Last year just came from out of nowhere so we go into this season all confident & excited & think yes we can trust this team.

Then it all ends like this.

[Flower Magic 776]

I haven't read this whole thread, but has anyone given credit to Fagan for his brilliant tactic in playing dead, and I mean completely dead - no effort, no chasing - in the final round so that the Dees thought they were good to go for the finals, and that the Lions were easy beats. Daniher did not elect to stay in Brisbane, Fagan ordered him to stay there because he knows that the Lions are a much better side without him. He refrained from tagging Oliver in round 23, but had Berry primed and ready for the task when it mattered. "Charlie, don't try too hard, let Hibberd think he has you covered" etc etc. Just brilliant, and the Dees fell for it, hook, line and sinkered/sunk.

[IRW 1,386]

32 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Ins. Tmcd. JVR.  Howes. Bowey

outs. Melksham.  Spargo. Sparrow. Rivers. 

Rivers was disappointing but worth keeping unless thete is a big trade deal in play.

I don't fancy Spargo myself but he is the best link player and decision maker in a disconnected forward line .

Sparrow good trade material

Melk gets unfair treatment here but is probably finished.

No one actually knows if JVR can play at this level ,so I'd suggest chill pills are in order.

After all MFC has a tradition of VFL champions

[IRW 1,386]

4 minutes ago, Flower Magic said:

I haven't read this whole thread, but has anyone given credit to Fagan for his brilliant tactic in playing dead, and I mean completely dead - no effort, no chasing - in the final round so that the Dees thought they were good to go for the finals, and that the Lions were easy beats. Daniher did not elect to stay in Brisbane, Fagan ordered him to stay there because he knows that the Lions are a much better side without him. He refrained from tagging Oliver in round 23, but had Berry primed and ready for the task when it mattered. "Charlie, don't try too hard, let Hibberd think he has you covered" etc etc. Just brilliant, and the Dees fell for it, hook, line and sinkered/sunk.

You had microphones in the rooms? Or you read Robbo?

Well coached against a game day spud and it's basic common sense  that Brisbane would come primed to ay against an pretty ordinary injured opposition.

Next thing  you know people will be saying Goodwin is one of the great coaches because MFC won a flag under him after 57 years.!

[1964_2 2,357]

1 hour ago, DemonWA said:

The game was lost when we didn't kick straight imo. So many blind pings at the sticks thay went out on the full too.

Didn't deserve to win but could have with a bit more polish on the execution in front of goals. 

Keen to see VanRoyen, Chandler, Barry and a few others get a shot next year. Hoping Salem can stay fit and recapture his best form too

Hard to kick straight, when you are usually attacking from the pocket.

the “method” is broken. Don’t expect them to acknowledge it externally, but do expect them to acknowledge and deal with it internally. A new method is required on top of the gaps such as a CHF, and players with foot skills and smarts.
 

[Wells 11 5,377]

10 minutes ago, DeeZee said:

Rivers Salem and Hunt were so bad, it was like we played the game with no half backs.

We have a good engine room , but took away a huge strength all year when Brayshaw was down back.

No really need to take him away from defense , he was a star there.

Yep. Salem prob shouldn’t have played after he got injured at the start of the year should he. We kept waiting fr the him we know to appear. It didn’t. Bottom line was that a  half fit salem was in no way better than Bowie… but we’ve been looking at that fr months and been unwilling to see it . He just can’t play injured. some can some can’t. He showed us he can’t.

Rivers is also carrying an injury and is utterly and embarrassingly bereft of confidence. I’m a real fan of his but that’s got to be about the worst game he’s played fr us. Genuine liability. I do expect those two to bounce bk though …they’re just too good not to. Hopefully they sort their injuries out over summer… or we’re stuffed.,

Hunt is prob just in our bottom 4. I don’t think we can point the bone at him. 

[640MD 3,354]

I do not have answers for our demise this year, only questions.

Question,   How come we decided so late last night to move Petty forward, you had Smith sitting on the pine to go to defense, except of course he needed to rake the medi sub vest off,    Why not,  he had fresh legs.  It could have been done anytime in the third quarter, and the dynamic of us losing control of the game would have changed.

It became obvious over the course of the year that BBB needed help, not enough talls,

We had Smith, Petty, Tomlinson and even weid that might have done it,   clearly we missed Tommy Mc.

Question,   does BBB keep playing or retire.

Question,  how much did the Jackson saga, sap the strength out of others, sometimes he did not look invested in our future.

Question,   how come  for much of the year we get a good lead, only to have it eroded, were we too defensive and try to save the game rather than win it.

Question, was there "loading" and when did it finish,

Question,  Why were some players not rested against the lower ranked sides in the middle of the year,  we had so many last night with strapping, player management in my opinion was abysmal.

Question,  in both finals games the Medi-sub was not used,  who decided not to use fresh legs, its the pointy end. 

Question,  where were our forwards in the second half, how come the scoring was so lopsided.

I was so depressed after that game I went and watched the QE2 tributes.

 

[Spargonicus 539]

A few notes of thanks: (and a dig)

- to the Dees supporters around us in N53 who got fired up in the second half when we were doing some big chants. (To the flogs who thought the Bears supporters were louder - total &$@! My ears and throat are feeling it this morning!)

- to Petty, Brayshaw, ANB, Tracc, Oliver, Langers: you gave us some great moments and put in everything last night, I thought 

- to the Bears supporters generally: your captain is the joke of the competition, nobody likes him.

It sucks, but let’s go again next year. I’ll be there. 

[mo64 5,853]

1 minute ago, 1964_2 said:

Hard to kick straight, when you are usually attacking from the pocket.

the “method” is broken. Don’t expect them to acknowledge it externally, but do expect them to acknowledge and deal with it internally. A new method is required on top of the gaps such as a CHF, and players with foot skills and smarts.
 

Two of the more laughable things happened in the 1st quarter when we were well on top. ANB marks 35m out directly in front, and passes it to Langdon on a worse angle. Langdon kicked the goal, but the thinking was idiotic. Then Jackson has a free on half forward and passes it to a leading Gawn in the forward pocket, and the ball spills out of bounds. This is symptomatic of our method and thought process.

[Lucifers Hero 39,506]

On the bright side:  We deny Geelong the bragging rights of a return PF mauling.

On the not so bright side:  Sydney hold our 1st round pick #14 which just makes them better.

[Wells 11 5,377]

2 hours ago, Deenooos_ said:

Yeh I agree. I really hope the club is smart enough to ensure we recruit the players we need for the positions where we are lacking. I think JT is reliable and will get us what we need.

We have Turner to come in for May when he retires (I really hope May doesn't drop off a cliff next year at 31 and hope he play until 33, he's just too good). Anyway we will have JVR to come in as the pack crashing marking forward which we need so badly and TMAC has another 2-3 good years in him. I would just drop BBB next season, his knee is cooked and he won't be better than JVR or TMac next year. How good would a forward line be with those two contested marking forwards?

In terms of injuries; I'm convinced we had at least 8 players out there under a significant injury cloud: 

- Max (cooked syndesmosis ankle, and groin)

- Lever (multiple rolled ankles in the last 2-3 games)

- Petracca (fractured leg)

- BBB (cooked knee)

- Jackson (ligament sprain in knee needing surgery)

So when you look at it, we are completely banged up and it shows. Gawn's syndesmosis has a recovery time ranging from 2-6 months but is this recovery slowed when running around on it for months on end, probably. Many others including Pickett and Fritsch with knee issues too.

If we don't make at least a prelim/grand final next year we will be a complete laughing stock. I can't accept that we come out next year with everyone healed up and not cause the comp some serious problems. We will learn that our 2021 style won't win us another flag as we will have learned this year, so they will go to work in the off season to make us better. We are too good for that not to happen.

In the end the premiership hangover did hit us I think, and the pressure and expectation of it all was too much. It was embarrassing that we couldn't at least make a prelim but it is what it is. The better days are not over.

 

yep .. and we’ll said. I think this is also why teams started over running us. I guess the question has to be asked  did we really need to keep playing all of them? Trac worked out ok, as did Clarry but the rest you mentioned, and add Salem and Rivers, just didn’t. Perhaps that’s just the footy gods having their say. 

[IRW 1,386]

3 minutes ago, Spargonicus said:

A few notes of thanks: (and a dig)

- to the Dees supporters around us in N53 who got fired up in the second half when we were doing some big chants. (To the flogs who thought the Bears supporters were louder - total &$@! My ears and throat are feeling it this morning!)

- to Petty, Brayshaw, ANB, Tracc, Oliver, Langers: you gave us some great moments and put in everything last night, I thought 

- to the Bears supporters generally: your captain is the joke of the competition, nobody likes him.

It sucks, but let’s go again next year. I’ll be there. 

Here's  a request to go with your points

Given Dogga Jackson is likely to go home to  get one grab marking practice can we retire his LJ label and return it to the guy ,if it hadn't been for Gawn in China and the " coach" who will remain nameless  , who would possibly still be the greatest indigenous player in AFL history.

Liam Jurrah  aka LJ!

Thank you

[Pennant St Dee 13,092]

Well Things are never as good as they seem (Rd 1-10) and things are never as bad as they seem(last night) - there’s venting but really some of the posts are just crazy

A coach once told me, after a defeat don’t address the players for too long, short sharp and succinct otherwise you will say something out of emotion you later regret. It meant little to me at the time, but when I became a coach I had that moment, which on reflection was really poor and a light bulb moment and it’s impossible sometimes to get the moment back. I would recommend that to several on here, don’t think we all don’t hurt after a loss and see issues. I hate posters who get personal with players.

After turning the phone off after last night’s loss, I have calmed down and reflected on what no doubt is a poor end to the season. It’s not wasted, they never are you learn something from them good and bad. Hawthorn started to expose a blueprint and others went to work opening up more cracks.  
 

We backed ourselves and stuck for a long time with what we knew. When we tried to change, with quicker ball movement and taking on the 45 in the corridor it wasn’t natural and often saw us getting hurt on turnover either by lack of confidence in not hitting the kick the minute you see it or by running into a wall and trying to handball our way through it. Watch vision from the last 7 games players have the ball there’s a 45 kick on in the corridor the player looks hesitates as if it goes against what we know and then tries the kick or passes on responsibility to a teammate, the moment is lost and you over handball or bomb it in. The pressure up the ground isn’t at last year’s level and we get burnt on the way back 

 I have no doubt the players were told and coached to alternate how we play, but it needs a lot of work, a full pre season and more. When you’re under pressure you go back to what you know muscle memory and what has worked previously.  The tweaks to the plan have started but a lot of work to go. Tmac  is vital as the lead up the ground creating channels for Brown to lead into. Brown is not a contested mark never has been and has been asked to do what’s not natural for him. I’m not sure JVR is ready, another pre season will be massive VFL and AFL gap is huge, we could roll the dice but list management is always ticking over and player development isn’t always necessarily occurring at AFL level. You come in when the time is right.

Fitness, again the Burgess myth, don’t get me wrong he’s probably the best in the business but we’re comparing apples with oranges between last year and this. A lot of our injuries were impact related and we were so banged up towards the end we just couldn’t run out games. Last season outside of Tomlinson almost everything went right injury wise. When Trac went public about not taking a proper break at the end of last season alarm bells went off at the time, the season is long and you need that time to freshen up, he wants to be the best he can but needs to listen to his body and rest up

Attitude - injuries had an impact but I reckon we lost that manic hunger to just do whatever it took. Selfless acts weren’t as prevalent and our pressure in the midfield and up forward wasn’t the same as last year. So many times we gave up late goals in quarters which hurt us It’s one thing to say after winning a flag, we want to do this back at our home, but it’s another to actually do everything you can to ensure it happens. Think Rayners spoil last night in the last quarter the kick into the corridor wasn’t immediate, then we take the kick and Rayner decides I’m putting pressure on Salem to at least prevent him playing on quickly. Salem waits for the kick, doesn’t attack it in the air and Rayner who is desperate gets to the ball first. That was us last season you make your own luck and by not being ruthless this year we didn’t put teams or games away and gave teams a sniff

For me the biggest need considering the change in style they started to try and implement is another elite kick off half back. Salem got sat on and there were no other options. Jackson isn’t a dud as emotional posters are labelling him, he’s hampered but going to be a good player but he’s the opportunity to play hardball. Two first rounders would be great but Hayden Young is the asking price it changes things big time and you just dig your heels in because you have to give something to get something.

Simon and co along with the playing group need to review, reflect, rest and recharge. Come back hungry, change things up a bit, not massively but just have a few more arrows to fire. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water, but don’t pull the trigger to late Goody it’s part of evolving as a coach 
 

Good luck to Casey boys today.

Watch the AFL finals now with envy, the dog will certainly be calmer now when I’m watching 

[Sargent Shultz 267]

A Saturday morning reflection for my fellow Demonlanders. It's not how we wanted the season to end, however, there is a LOT to look forward to:

1. We finished second on the ladder- so our team is pretty good and our top 6 are as good as anyone
2. We are still, for 2 weeks, the reigning premiers :)
3. We have 6 current or nominated  All Australians
4. Casey may well end up Premiers - so we have emerging players
5. Back-to-back premierships are F'n hard to achieve
6. This team will compete strongly for the next 4-5 years
7. Goody is a great coach- a team does NOT finish 2nd with a Muppet

What to fix?

1. We need a couple of key positional slots filled- centre half forward and probably a ruck to help Max
2. We must find out why, and fix, the last half fade-outs (i think the loss of Burgess is the reason our back half of the season went Kaput
3. We need to change Stafford now, our forward line structure and game plane is Shizenhousen
4. Goody needs to tweak the game plan to more attacking flair and less contested defense

These are all tactical issues that should be easy to fix in a preseason.

I know we are all hurting this morning but as the late, great, George Harrison reminded us "All things must pass"

I

[Deemania since 56 6,607]

46 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

Yes, but he doesn’t actually work on and address anything…Just turns up to press conferences  and says there were lots of “learnings” and we “need to be better for longer” and improve our inside 50 connection 

It is frustrating to see, hear and then interpret Goodwin's unspecific points of focus. It is almost as if he has no idea, whatsoever. We need continuous development: fitness, teamwork and re-orientation as a team; better preparation and trialling of youth at Casey; versatility of roles and execution; game plans that are quickly rotated, implemented and understood; with these adjustments (and there are obviously more left unmentioned) we can build again to effect improved onfield performances. We have some of the best (at least a third of our team) in the competition, yet it does not show in any sustained manner.

[Bozo 73]

10 hours ago, 1964_2 said:

More than happy to put this on the line. It is an absolutely horrific coaching performance for this list to go out in straight sets!! No other way to view it.

hypothetical, what if Bartlett wanted goody gone for various reasons last year, and Bartlett was correct. But after a 3-4-0 start, The other fence sitting board members ditched Bartlett, and decided To back goody. Goody pulls his head in, gives power to other smarter people such as Yze. But then after winning the flag, ego comes back into play and it’s all about him? 

Just some food for thought. 

More than happy to put on the record my views that the biggest priority for the MFC should be signing up Yze, and not goody. Know most of you will disagree, but really couldn’t give a stuff. Especially given how wrong most of your views have been.

 

Goodwin's position is now untenable. The responsibility for that loss and others throughout the season rests firmly at his feet. You cannot blame the players or injuries or bad luck; it's appalling, arrogant coaching. An inability to react and adapt  to what's right in front of your face. No contingency just stubborn whipping the dead horse for some egotistical high.

I am prepared to put forward my share to pay Simon out. If the rest of the dissapointed members feel so inclined, it would be easy to raise the cash and it would mean not having to put up with that crap for the remainder of SG's contract.

Of highest importance is the mandatory elevation and securing of Adem Yze to Senior coach ASAP. We must not hesitate as he is likely to go elsewhere should we dawdle. This is a crucial moment in the clubs history.

A cleanout of all support coaches so that Yze might coose his own dream team.

At the very least take a poll of all the members who have paid to endure that garbage as to their preference of coach going forward.

[dees189227 12,368]

Anyone watched last year's finals lately and think who the hell is this team. I didn't recognise them. they were exciting to watch, never missed, didn't give away dumb free kicks & 50s and we looked like a well oiled machine.

I hope this is what we get back next year 

[Clintosaurus 7,831]

1 hour ago, Melbournepotter said:

Then there is gamesmanship...Buddy did nothing last week except shift momentum by running at May and getting a free kick...do we have players with the same smarts ?

We wouldn't be paid the free anyway.

[John Crow Batty 8,860]

27 minutes ago, 640MD said:

I do not have answers for our demise this year, only questions.

Question,   How come we decided so late last night to move Petty forward, you had Smith sitting on the pine to go to defense, except of course he needed to rake the medi sub vest off,    Why not,  he had fresh legs.  It could have been done anytime in the third quarter, and the dynamic of us losing control of the game would have changed.

It became obvious over the course of the year that BBB needed help, not enough talls,

We had Smith, Petty, Tomlinson and even weid that might have done it,   clearly we missed Tommy Mc.

Question,   does BBB keep playing or retire.

Question,  how much did the Jackson saga, sap the strength out of others, sometimes he did not look invested in our future.

Question,   how come  for much of the year we get a good lead, only to have it eroded, were we too defensive and try to save the game rather than win it.

Question, was there "loading" and when did it finish,

Question,  Why were some players not rested against the lower ranked sides in the middle of the year,  we had so many last night with strapping, player management in my opinion was abysmal.

Question,  in both finals games the Medi-sub was not used,  who decided not to use fresh legs, its the pointy end. 

Question,  where were our forwards in the second half, how come the scoring was so lopsided.

I was so depressed after that game I went and watched the QE2 tributes.

 

I thought pre game given Daniher’s absence it would have been a smart move to play Petty forward to help BB. Daniher’s replacement Fullerton is a complete spud.  It is such a waste that Smith was not given a chance to play as well. 

Edited September 10, 2022 by John Crow Batty

[Macca 16,904]

We threw the game away with indirect football in the first half

Brisbane were shell-shocked and had no answers but we persisted with boundary line attacks and even worse, bombing it in a haphazard way to the pockets

We showed no daring, took no risks and paid a heavy price by letting them back in it

Probably the worst loss I can ever remember in terms of a superior side being beaten by an inferior side

Poor coaching and our players are no better.  Programmed with inneficient methods with our inside 50 entries.  Unable to think for themselves

We went with the GF team of last year and it didn't work.  To not make a PF with this team is a massive fail

Stafford can go, he's not up to it.  Goodwin needs a rocket as well.  This team is capable of blowing teams away (we've seen it) but we persist with not using the corridor.  Why?

Meanwhile, the other good teams do use the corridor.  Makes no sense as to why we don't

From the corridor we hit the flanks or pockets.  It's garbage football

We lost 8 of our last 14 games. Teams with that sort of record are usually down the other end of the ladder

 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Macca

[Demon Jack 6,858]

I love the guy and he'll always be a premiership player at Melbourne, but realistically, Ben Brown should never play for us again. His body and confidence are completely shot. 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Demon Jack