Trade and Free Agency rumours

[WERRIDEE 5,352]

25 minutes ago, Turner said:

i was doing some analysis before and i realised we only need to delist two players at EOS to meet afl criteria. for the purpose of the exercise i've nominated mbrown who has done his 3yr rookie stint and is 32 and baker who didn't play a snr game and has been on the list for 5 years. chandler getting upgraded uses one pick and takes bakers list slot. taking us from 35senior 5A1B to 35S 4A1B and mbrown delisting takes us down to 35S 3A1B. this means we can then change our list structure from the 36S 6A1B setup we had this year to the 38S (either 3 draftees ontop of the chandler upgrade) or 37S (only two draftees plus chandler) and 4A1B (could be 2B if finn emile-brennan goes all the way through. 

everyone seems to think we need to make lots of calls and i get we want to find ways to improve our list etc etc but its interesting how it can be manipulated in certain ways if theres nothing we like. and we could have 2 rookie spots to trial players over the SPP and trial up to 6 players for those spots on a realistic universe

I thought you had to delist 3 players rookies not included?

The way I see the list Jackson gets traded, Baker gets delisted and Rosman gets delisted then re rookied. Mitch is a rookie I think he will retire Majak has already retired Rosman will take his spot. We recruit Grundy and Chandler gets promoted that leaves us with one draft pick and 2 rookie picks.

 

Senior team

B: Lever, May, Hibberd

HB: Hunt, Petty, Salem

C: Langdon, Brayshaw, Jordon

HF: Petracca, McDonald, Pickett

F: Fritsch, B.Brown, Gawn

FOLL: Grundy, Oliver, Viney

IC: Harmes, Sparrow, Spargo, Neal-Bullen

SUB: Rivers

 

Casey

B: D.Smith, Turner, Rosman

HB: Bowey, Tomlinson, Rivers

C: Howes, Dunstan, Woewodin

HF: Laurie, van Rooyen, Melksham

F: Bedford, J.Smith, Chandler

FOLL: Weideman, Rookie, Rookie

IC: McVee, Moniz-Wakefield, Draft Pick Key Forward  

[58er 5,996]

4 hours ago, WERRIDEE said:

I thought you had to delist 3 players rookies not included?

The way I see the list Jackson gets traded, Baker gets delisted and Rosman gets delisted then re rookied. Mitch is a rookie I think he will retire Majak has already retired Rosman will take his spot. We recruit Grundy and Chandler gets promoted that leaves us with one draft pick and 2 rookie picks.

 

Senior team

B: Lever, May, Hibberd

HB: Hunt, Petty, Salem

C: Langdon, Brayshaw, Jordon

HF: Petracca, McDonald, Pickett

F: Fritsch, B.Brown, Gawn

FOLL: Grundy, Oliver, Viney

IC: Harmes, Sparrow, Spargo, Neal-Bullen

SUB: Rivers

 

Casey

B: D.Smith, Turner, Rosman

HB: Bowey, Tomlinson, Rivers

C: Howes, Dunstan, Woewodin

HF: Laurie, van Rooyen, Melksham

F: Bedford, J.Smith, Chandler

FOLL: Weideman, Rookie, Rookie

IC: McVee, Moniz-Wakefield, Draft Pick Key Forward  

Werridee you have fallen for the Goody plan! 

We need to evolve with new youth each year and another pre season should enable this to happen. 
 

Rivers in the AFL and med sub  role  for Hibbo.

Bowey over Hunt still improves our team.

Turner to the defence and Petty forward  to CHF 

JVR to FF in place of BBB 

At least one of Howes/ Chandler/ Laurie to I/C in place of either ANB / Spargo.

Joel Smith in 23 maybe tried  as a forward / onballer to replace Sparrow. 

Not  all  replacements might be for Round1 but these possible or similar  changes are necessary for us to improve especially our skills and forward  line for us to be in Top4 reckoning. 

Yes it's left field a bit but Goody has to do 2 years in one upgrading of our 2021 Flag side as 2022 was a dormant year. 

 

 

[MadAsHell 4,209]

By my guessing it's quite simple. Daw has already retired and Mitch Brown will be desisted leaving 2 rookie spots. Rosman will be desisted and re-rookied while Chandler will be promoted which cancels eachother out.

It sounds as though both Tomlinson and Bedford might be traded off the senior list at seasons end to other clubs while Baker will be delisted.

That gives us 3 senior list spots and 2 rookie list spots. If we lose Jackson we can bring Grundy in for him and what happens from there on in with Hunt, Hibberd and Melksham can determine if we use more than 3 picks or target other trade options or DFA's.

[Lucifers Hero 38,985]

7 hours ago, Turner said:

i was doing some analysis before and i realised we only need to delist two players at EOS to meet afl criteria. for the purpose of the exercise i've nominated mbrown who has done his 3yr rookie stint and is 32 and baker who didn't play a snr game and has been on the list for 5 years. chandler getting upgraded uses one pick and takes bakers list slot. taking us from 35senior 5A1B to 35S 4A1B and mbrown delisting takes us down to 35S 3A1B. this means we can then change our list structure from the 36S 6A1B setup we had this year to the 38S (either 3 draftees ontop of the chandler upgrade) or 37S (only two draftees plus chandler) and 4A1B (could be 2B if finn emile-brennan goes all the way through. 

everyone seems to think we need to make lots of calls and i get we want to find ways to improve our list etc etc but its interesting how it can be manipulated in certain ways if theres nothing we like. and we could have 2 rookie spots to trial players over the SPP and trial up to 6 players for those spots on a realistic universe

Most clubs will max out their A rookies as a chunk of their salary doesn't count for TPP hence why Jordon, Chandler and Turner were given hybrid rookie/senior promotion contracts.

[Lucifers Hero 38,985]

Very soon we will have an age profile and quality gap in our list of 18-22 year olds which will become a gap in the 23-26 age group and so on.  We have players in that age group but not many have found a way to break into the team and only a couple have prospects of doing so in the next year or two.  So quantity is ok but quality is a ?

This is happening while we have list deficiencies in critical positions.

In 2-3 years quite a few of our stars will be approaching or over 30.  Many players go on to play well after 30 but how do we replace the quality of so many before their contribution starts to wane? 

Because we are successful and tend to trade out our future first pick we are unlikely to have access to the top dozen or so players in each draft.  And we are unlikely to trade out our best players as they are on long-term deals.  Our list will age rapidly.

To some this may not matter as 'we are in the premiership window' with a star midfield, defence etc. however if we don't start getting access to the pointy end of the draft I'm not sure we can sustain finals participation/be in contention for flags in the latter part of this decade.

As much as Taylor is a star he needs picks to work with to keep our list age/quality profile balanced and I'm not sure where pointy end draft picks are coming from in the next 3-4 years.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Lucifers Hero

[Demon3 2,541]

If we dont keep refreshing the list, we will have short fall of top end  young talent.

That is why, i can tell you we want a pick inside the top 5/6 and another in the top 18 for Jackson. Which I still see no one can possibly tell us how this deal is going to get it done for Jackson?

[poita 3,874]

It is seriously dumb list management to not be turning over a minimum of 5-6 players each year.

What is the point of retaining guys like Baker and Chandler when they are clearly not in the coach's plans? Let alone having a guy like Smith spending more time in rehab than on the field each year.

Our depth is nowhere near as good as it is made out to be by some, and we need to keep looking for new talent, particularly in the forward line. With so many of our players currently in the 26 - 27 age bracket, we become a very old team very quickly otherwise.

[dazzledavey36 52,884]

45 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

Very soon we will have an age profile and quality gap in our list of 18-22 year olds which will become a gap in the 23-26 age group and so on.  We have players in that age group but not many have found a way to break into the team and only a couple have prospects of doing so in the next year or two.  So quantity is ok but quality is a ?

This is happening while we have list deficiencies in critical positions.

In 2-3 years quite a few of our stars will be approaching or over 30.  Many players go on to play well after 30 but how do we replace their quality before their contribution starts to wane? 

Because we are successful and tend to trade out our future first pick we are unlikely to have access to the top dozen or so players in each draft.  And we are unlikely to trade out our best players as they are on long-term deals.  Our list will age rapidly.

To some this may not matter as 'we are in the premiership window' with a star midfield, defence etc. however if we don't start getting access to the pointy end of the draft I'm not sure we can sustain finals participation/be in contention for flags in the latter part of this decade.

As much as Taylor is a star he needs picks to work with to keep our list age/quality profile balanced and I'm not sure where pointy end draft picks are coming from in the next 3-4 years.

Agree wholeheartedly.

This is why the narrative of wasting a 1st round pick on a 29 year old ruckman just spells disaster for me from a list demographic point of view.

Whilst our starting midfield is of high end talent, there is a significant drop in depth from that 26/27 years age bracket and below.

Petracca, Oliver, Viney and Brayshaw is obviously our midfield set up that'll keep us going for the next 2-3 years. After that there is a significant drop in depth coming through in my opinion. 

Sparrow has been underwhelming for me this year and I only see him as an honest battler moving forward. He's the only young player that is usually given fair bit of midfield minutes. Other then that I don't see where the next wave of talent is coming through from a midfield perspective. 

I reckon topping up our midfield pool with elite junior talent is right up there as a big need for us on equal with getting some key forward depth.

My other concern is Goodwins reluctance in being able to introduce fresh players or regenerate team selections along the way. We've had 3 debutants in two years. Collingwood have had 6 alone this year.

Our forward line has been an absolute mess mostly the 2nd half of the year and his unwillingness to give the likes of JVR, Laurie and Chandler a go to try mix things up a touch is concerning. I was always in the belief that Goodwin has always been about rewarding form at VFL level but that hasn't been the case at all.

His continued persistence of the likes of Weideman and Melksham ahead of others who have been in far better form throughout the year, who whilst Melky has been okay prior to the Sydney game is clearly not in our future plans moving forward.

I think the form of guys like Sparrow, ANB and Spargo to a degree have been inconsistent throughout the year. I get that Goody is wanting throw all his faith on the same blokes that won him a flag but when teams have spent all summer examining and studying our game plan right to the fine tooth comb then of course you're going to get losses like we have this year when our team selections and game plan gets stale and not tweaked.

I really do hope our list doesn't get Ross Lyon'd in the near future....

Edited September 6, 2022 by dazzledavey36

[dazzledavey36 52,884]

7 minutes ago, poita said:

It is seriously dumb list management to not be turning over a minimum of 5-6 players each year.

What is the point of retaining guys like Baker and Chandler when they are clearly not in the coach's plans? Let alone having a guy like Smith spending more time in rehab than on the field each year.

Our depth is nowhere near as good as it is made out to be by some, and we need to keep looking for new talent, particularly in the forward line. With so many of our players currently in the 26 - 27 age bracket, we become a very old team very quickly otherwise.

Keeping the likes of Mitch Brown and Baker  for another year after playing only a single game last year was utterly bizarre list manager. 

Either those spots should have been used on a developing tall either a ruckman or key forward.

[Lucifers Hero 38,985]

 

34 minutes ago, Demon3 said:

If we dont keep refreshing the list, we will have short fall of top end  young talent.

That is why, i can tell you we want a pick inside the top 5/6 and another in the top 18 for Jackson. Which I still see no one can possibly tell us how this deal is going to get it done for Jackson?

 

23 minutes ago, poita said:

It is seriously dumb list management to not be turning over a minimum of 5-6 players each year.

What is the point of retaining guys like Baker and Chandler when they are clearly not in the coach's plans? Let alone having a guy like Smith spending more time in rehab than on the field each year.

Our depth is nowhere near as good as it is made out to be by some, and we need to keep looking for new talent, particularly in the forward line. With so many of our players currently in the 26 - 27 age bracket, we become a very old team very quickly otherwise.

 

18 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Agree wholeheartedly.

This is why the narrative of wasting a 1st round pick on a 29 year old ruckman just spells disaster for me from a list demographic point of view.

Whilst our starting midfield is of high end talent, there is a significant drop in depth from that 26/27 years age bracket and below.

Petracca, Oliver, Viney and Brayshaw is obviously our midfield set up that'll keep us going for the next 2-3 years. After that there is a significant drop in depth coming through in my opinion. 

Sparrow has been underwhelming for me this year and I only see him as an honest battler moving forward. He's the only young player that is usually given fair bit of midfield minutes. Other then that I don't see where the next wave of talent is coming through from a midfield perspective. 

I reckon topping up our midfield pool with elite junior talent is right up there as a big need for us on equal with getting some key forward depth.

My other concern is Goodwins reluctance in being able to introduce fresh players or regenerate team selections along the way. We've had 3 debutants in two years. Collingwood have had 6 alone this year.

Our forward line has been an absolute mess mostly the 2nd half of the year and his unwillingness to give the likes of JVR, Laurie and Chandler a go to try mix things up a touch is concerning. I was always in the belief that Goodwin has always been about rewarding form at VFL level but that hasn't been the case at all.

His continued persistence of the likes of Weideman and Melksham ahead of others who have been in far better form throughout the year, who whilst Melky has been okay prior to the Sydney game is clearly not in our future plans moving forward.

I think the form of guys like Sparrow, ANB and Spargo to a degree have been inconsistent throughout the year. I get that Goody is wanting throw all his faith on the same blokes that won him a flag but when teams have spent all summer examining and studying our game plan right to the fine tooth comb then of course you're going to get losses like we have this year when our team selections and game plan gets stale and not tweaked.

It seems we are in agreement on the age/quality trend of our list. 

Not too many clear options for us to get ahead of that trend.

Tradeable players aren't likely to bring in good picks.  While we can trade those picks up the draft other clubs also want to and by regularly trading out our future 1st it doesn't leave a lot of currency (the Jackson trade this year aside) to work with.

The best 'ageing/quality' replenishment scenario would be Sydney but they have the Academy to top them up.  Then Geelong who have done very well replenishing their list, then Richmond and worst is the Hawks who have really bottomed out. 

Hopefully, we have our 'dynasty' before the aging of players kicks in. 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Lucifers Hero

[The heart beats true 17,815]

Those critical of the list not being turned over prior to the 22 season would be wise to remember that season 20 and 21 were effectively wiped out at a lot of levels. It was a much more considered decision to work with what you’ve got rather than bring in what hasn’t had consistent games for 2 years.

Things return to normal this year, so we will see more informed decisions made.

[Turner 1,489]

12 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Keeping the likes of Mitch Brown and Baker  for another year after playing only a single game last year was utterly bizarre list manager. 

Either those spots should have been used on a developing tall either a ruckman or key forward.

ok so say we moved on another two mature depth players last year for 18yo's suddenly we have zero depth, tbh we got relatively lucky again with injuries this season where we were able to swing the magnets for these one week injuries and essentially stay ahead of them rather than compiling multiple week injuries.

also if we'd delisted them both last year then we'd have reached this point in the season with a mandatory three list changes to make and no obvious candidates, you need to keep some balance, these players know the club the training standards the game plan sometimes just having a few extra familiar voices can add a lot and help bridge the gap to the fresh faces entering the club each year at casey. last year we shifted on 6 players in the 22-26 age bracket some rather unfairly imo as well as two 30yo veterans thats a lot of strong mature bodies off the list in one go, it would've been irresponsible to do any more than that. 

[Lucifers Hero 38,985]

I thought our drafting last year was quite good but only time will tell.  The 'ins' were much better than the 'outs'.  Hopefully, they can find their way into the 22 next year to show what they have.

Not sure the delist/keep decisions last year would make much difference to the age/quality challenges in a few years time.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Lucifers Hero

[mo64 5,501]

11 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Keeping the likes of Mitch Brown and Baker  for another year after playing only a single game last year was utterly bizarre list manager. 

Either those spots should have been used on a developing tall either a ruckman or key forward.

It's fine keeping them on the list if you have faith in their ability at AFL level. But in Mitch Brown's case, we'd rather play a banged up BBB, despite MB's form at VFL being very good. And MB's last AFL game against the Crows was more than serviceable.

Retaining Baker was a head scratcher considering he's clearly not in our plans.

Should we lose LJ, I'd much rather go to the draft with our picks than blow it on Grundy.

[1964_2 2,357]

8 hours ago, WERRIDEE said:

I thought you had to delist 3 players rookies not included?

The way I see the list Jackson gets traded, Baker gets delisted and Rosman gets delisted then re rookied. Mitch is a rookie I think he will retire Majak has already retired Rosman will take his spot. We recruit Grundy and Chandler gets promoted that leaves us with one draft pick and 2 rookie picks.

 

Senior team

B: Lever, May, Hibberd

HB: Hunt, Petty, Salem

C: Langdon, Brayshaw, Jordon

HF: Petracca, McDonald, Pickett

F: Fritsch, B.Brown, Gawn

FOLL: Grundy, Oliver, Viney

IC: Harmes, Sparrow, Spargo, Neal-Bullen

SUB: Rivers

 

Casey

B: D.Smith, Turner, Rosman

HB: Bowey, Tomlinson, Rivers

C: Howes, Dunstan, Woewodin

HF: Laurie, van Rooyen, Melksham

F: Bedford, J.Smith, Chandler

FOLL: Weideman, Rookie, Rookie

IC: McVee, Moniz-Wakefield, Draft Pick Key Forward  

Needs on top of your selected Senior team

- a senior KPF to fill the gap until JVR ready to go. Even if it’s a “Geelong style pensioner” for 1-2 seasons (and cover for BBB/TMac injuries)

- smart player with kicking skills / class as midfield/wing depth

- Classy small forward (with strong defensive pressure) to keep ANB/Spargo honest. Maybe Chandler/Bedford if they can step up to next level? 
 

Address the above 3 and it’s a premiership team 

[Wilbur 447]

34 minutes ago, poita said:

It is seriously dumb list management to not be turning over a minimum of 5-6 players each year.

What is the point of retaining guys like Baker and Chandler when they are clearly not in the coach's plans? Let alone having a guy like Smith spending more time in rehab than on the field each year.

Our depth is nowhere near as good as it is made out to be by some, and we need to keep looking for new talent, particularly in the forward line. With so many of our players currently in the 26 - 27 age bracket, we become a very old team very quickly otherwise.

Interesting take considering we  finished second on the ladder and  Casey 1st. 

[dazzledavey36 52,884]

8 minutes ago, Turner said:

ok so say we moved on another two mature depth players last year for 18yo's suddenly we have zero depth, tbh we got relatively lucky again with injuries this season where we were able to swing the magnets for these one week injuries and essentially stay ahead of them rather than compiling multiple week injuries.

also if we'd delisted them both last year then we'd have reached this point in the season with a mandatory three list changes to make and no obvious candidates, you need to keep some balance, these players know the club the training standards the game plan sometimes just having a few extra familiar voices can add a lot and help bridge the gap to the fresh faces entering the club each year at casey. last year we shifted on 6 players in the 22-26 age bracket some rather unfairly imo as well as two 30yo veterans thats a lot of strong mature bodies off the list in one go, it would've been irresponsible to do any more than that. 

Zero depth? They were barely used at all this year. Mitch Brown played 2 games and Baker zero. Baker hasn't even been named as an emergency at all this year and even with our messy forward line Brown was always well behind the pecking order.

There's depth and then there's keeping blokes on a list for far too long when they've produced little in return for a number of years.

Adding extra voices? You say it as if we are are lacking voice and leadership around the joint, we don't. We have ample amount of senior players on the list that provide enough voice to our young players.

Dropping two senior isn't going to drastically change all that all of a sudden. 

[MadAsHell 4,209]

41 minutes ago, poita said:

It is seriously dumb list management to not be turning over a minimum of 5-6 players each year.

What is the point of retaining guys like Baker and Chandler when they are clearly not in the coach's plans? Let alone having a guy like Smith spending more time in rehab than on the field each year.

Our depth is nowhere near as good as it is made out to be by some, and we need to keep looking for new talent, particularly in the forward line. With so many of our players currently in the 26 - 27 age bracket, we become a very old team very quickly otherwise.

Playing devils advocate, I'd ask if we don't have good depth, why has our VFL team gone through the year dropping only the one game???

I agree the decision to keep Baker was a little odd? Maybe it was due to our lack of genuine wingmen? But Chandler was named sub several times in 2021 and the FD clearly rate him. Bedford has gone past him this year however.

Personally if you're right in contention then I see why you might only want to make the minimum amount of list changes required from season to season. However if you're some way off then I agree, you want to regenerate the list with a much stronger brush.

[dazzledavey36 52,884]

9 minutes ago, mo64 said:

It's fine keeping them on the list if you have faith in their ability at AFL level. But in Mitch Brown's case, we'd rather play a banged up BBB, despite MB's form at VFL being very good. And MB's last AFL game against the Crows was more than serviceable.

Retaining Baker was a head scratcher considering he's clearly not in our plans.

Should we lose LJ, I'd much rather go to the draft with our picks than blow it on Grundy.

Yep, I agree.

[layzie 32,938]

10 minutes ago, mo64 said:

It's fine keeping them on the list if you have faith in their ability at AFL level. But in Mitch Brown's case, we'd rather play a banged up BBB, despite MB's form at VFL being very good. And MB's last AFL game against the Crows was more than serviceable.

Retaining Baker was a head scratcher considering he's clearly not in our plans.

Should we lose LJ, I'd much rather go to the draft with our picks than blow it on Grundy.

Absolutely. Get some quality picks to invest in youth, maybe bring in a much cheaper recycled option from elsewhere as cover in the ruck but the key is to keep getting quality young kids in. 

It shouldn't be forgotten either that being a new draftee playing alongside good premiership players can potentially fast track their development. It likely won't take forever like it used to in basket case environments of the past. 

[BW511 2,574]

33 minutes ago, MadAsHell said:

Playing devils advocate, I'd ask if we don't have good depth, why has our VFL team gone through the year dropping only the one game???

I agree the decision to keep Baker was a little odd? Maybe it was due to our lack of genuine wingmen? But Chandler was named sub several times in 2021 and the FD clearly rate him. Bedford has gone past him this year however.

Personally if you're right in contention then I see why you might only want to make the minimum amount of list changes required from season to season. However if you're some way off then I agree, you want to regenerate the list with a much stronger brush.

I would argue that our depth isn't great at an AFL level.

We don't have guys capable of coming in and performing to a level where they could be relied upon to effectively contribute.

An example from the weekend is Trac, if he's running round at 70% from early in the game and still considered better than the replacement option (Smith), our depth isn't good enough. He was a liability and everyone could see it. Joel Smith should have been furious

Our depth is also largely untried because of our success over the last few years, catch 22

Edited September 7, 2022 by BW511

[monoccular 17,328]

On 9/1/2022 at 5:22 PM, Red and Blue realist said:

We've previously gotten Pig off the Bombers and he goes alright, I wonder if the footy department will think the cure is Ham?

Edited September 7, 2022 by monoccular

[Turner 1,489]

51 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

There's depth and then there's keeping blokes on a list for far too long when they've produced little in return for a number of years.

Adding extra voices? You say it as if we are are lacking voice and leadership around the joint, we don't. We have ample amount of senior players on the list that provide enough voice to our young players.

Dropping two senior isn't going to drastically change all that all of a sudden. 

we'll to some extent i agree, if it was up to me i probably woulda persevered with any of hore, declase or lockhart last year over baker but clearly we felt our defensive depth was stronger than our wing depth at the time. and mbrown deserved this year on our list and has done no harm by being on it.

and if you read my comment properly i said offering voice and leadership at casey and breaking that potential divide between the regular afl side and a group of up to 10 players on our list now aged 21 and under who hadn't tasted any senior football at all going into the year aside from 7 games of boweys.

[MadAsHell 4,209]

36 minutes ago, BW511 said:

I would argue that our depth isn't great at an AFL level.

We don't have guys capable of coming in and performing to a level where they could be relied upon to effectively contribute.

An example from the weekend is Trac, if he's running round at 70% from early in the game and still considered better than the replacement option (Smith), our depth isn't good enough. He was a liability and everyone could see it. Joel Smith should have been furious

Our depth is also largely untried because of our success over the last few years, catch 22

That's more around selection though isn't it? Joel Smith isn't an obvious replacement for Petracca. If they were to sub Petracca for Smith, Smith would need to go forward or back with one of those players then rotating into the midfield.

If Dunstan was the sub, then maybe they would have made the change?

[rjay 24,615]

Depth is an illusion...just saying.

You never can cover your top end talent.

We do it as well as any but you are always going to get lesser otherwise that replacement would be a regular.

As for age profile...the AFL draft system is set up to make it impossible to have a balanced list.

Why do you think Richmond is on the wane, Hawthorn have dropped back and Geelong are aged pensioners.

The Cat's have worked the system better than anyone and might just grab the reward this year but they're one Cameron hamstring off tears.

This is why we need to make the most of the next couple of years...