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In Season - Loading/Periodisation: Put your conjecture here.



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13 minutes ago, Vipercrunch said:

Yeah, that's how I interpreted what he said as well.  It's just his opinion though of course.

I would say opinion off the back of what the Demons who got it right last year, did in the finals with three big wins! Bvegas 4-9 should have been a 10 goal win!

Thats why you often see teams who just make the eight win a first final then get smashed by teams who finished 1-4 but lost first final. Dogs being an outlier in 2021 as until last round they were finishing 1-4.

The trick is getting your loading right, finishing top 4, and injury happy!

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16 hours ago, BW511 said:

With the way a training cycle or loading phase works, the on/off method suggested above would likely not be the answer. Generally it is a 4 week block and then recover for a week.

I would anticipate the current bye break being used as a recovery period and then another loading phase through rounds of 15, 16, 17, 18 (around 4 weeks) then pull it back and come out breathing fire for Bulldogs in Round 19.

 

 

I was a bit ham-fisted with my explanation. In Olympic sports that are of an endurance nature, I've heard commentators call out why a particular athlete has gone out extremely hard and/or faded heavily in races (even predicting it on occasions). They'll mention that they're trying to peak for a particular event (maybe the World Championships or Olympics) and they'll sacrifice their performance in that event to use it as a way to get in some load training whilst in a competitive environment. The aim may be to improve a particular section within the race, like starting or finishing more aggressively.

With team sports, this becomes more complex but offers the opportunity to spread loading across different players and in different ways to try to maintain competitiveness. Given the 5 day breaks in between the Lions and Cats games, any heavier loading in the lead up to those games would increase the chances of soft tissue injuries occurring. 

However, if the time on ground (TOG) and the intensity during the game is modified players could essentially receive a loading session within the game. This could be a player playing with really high intensity in Q2 and Q3 and then spending less TOG or in a more passive role at other times. Players could also tag team where one of them is at high intensity, while the other is resting. There may be evidence of this last year where the TOG for players was quite variable through the second block of loading.

The 9 and 10 day breaks after those two games then allows for heavier loading between those games so players are getting consistent high intensity aerobic sessions around 4 or 5 days apart. 

Speaking of Olympic sport commentators, it's so nice to hear the insider knowledge of former athletes about loading and preparation. About 95% of footy commentators are ex-players but none of them offer that sort of insight.

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On 6/19/2022 at 7:58 PM, binman said:

Some top shelf prognostications there stu.

I hadn't thought much past the lions game, but I thought similarly for that game ie we will look to be as fresh as possible.

It's one game back from the port game last season, but it seems similar in terms of freshening up to play a top 4 contender, and possible finals opponent, before going hard again.

Scott's comments in his presser were fascinating. Pretty clear from his comments, they have long loaded, but never got it quite right in terms of peaking at the right time.

But are now going harder than they previously have - and damn the consequences in terms of the risk of missing the finals

Really reinforces the point made in that football Australia pages I linked to that periodisation is incredibly complex. So many variables, like game style and mix of different types of athletes (eg power v runners) and physiology.

And that within each program there must be a range of philosophies and approaches, albeit within a pretty narrow framework of what is accepted, and proven, best practice.

Also, as you suggest, during this block of  aprox 7-8 games, clubs will freshen up for specific games they want to maximise their chance of games.

Like you my gut feel is that will include the lions game, and I suspect they will also freshen up for (unless that doesn't fit with the program they have mapped out).

 

You've mentioned it in the pod many times the last few weeks but I similarly look to the fitness during the first 8 rounds to remind myself that we're clearly loading.

In Round 4, Sparrow getting the ball at half back and ending with him beating multiple GWS players inside 50 to slap the ball to Fritsch for a goal. In the same play a GWS player falls down to his knees from exhaustion at the goal line and he was closer to goal then Sparrow was when the play started. 

In Round 8, late in the fourth quarter with the game won, Spargo makes two tackles in about 5 seconds and another Dees player (can't remember) makes similar repeat efforts that thwarts an attempted forward entry. 

You don't lose that level of fitness in a few weeks.

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10 hours ago, Webber said:

Is my personal experience of loading behaviour too. As cycling is so physiologically pure (i.e. miinimal requisite skills), the comparison holds only to those physiological outputs, but they simply drop drastically during heavy loading phases (wattage, speed, endurance, grinding the pedals). If ball skills were involved, I don’t doubt they’d deteriorate accordingly, The payoff of course is that ability to ‘dance on the pedals’ when you’ve loaded, tapered, recovered and primed. (I refer to my now dwindling ‘dancing’ days). 

About 15 years ago I worked with someone who was a fairly accomplish amateur / semi-pro road (motor) bike rider (e.g. Superbikes). At the time when I worked with him, he mentored young up and coming riders. He said a big focus was on the concept of having $1 dollar of mental energy to spend. They'd assign a cost to things like gear changes (5 cents), cornering (10 cents), transitioning between turns (20 cents). He'd get them to rate it after 5 laps and than again after 25. The cost would always be higher the more fatigued they were. The learning for them was to get better and better at those skills to reduce the cost to properly execute them. This meant that fatigue had less impact resulting in a more consistent performance from start to finish. 

By way of comparison, this Dees team has had issues with delivery into the F50. With coaching and a lot of practise they've improved, but at their core they remain somewhat unskilled or inconsistent in this area. During a period of heavy loading players have less mental energy and focus due to fatigue, so unless they're naturally very gifted at F50 entries the quality of decision making is likely to be impacted. Unless it's second nature (from skill formed at a young age), fatigue will impact the execution and decision making with any aspect of the game. 

We saw very poor F50 entries happen during the Collingwood and GWS game last year, and we've seen it in the second half against Freo and Sydney, and most of the game last week.

Edited by Stu
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5 hours ago, FritschyBusiness said:

Worth a listen as Lyon (who seems not to know about any of this, which says something), asks Buckley to clarify what he's talking about. But this isn't the long-term loading over months that some are referring to here, it's extra sessions over a week or two (on one of the shows, Chris Scott referred to a 14 day period).

Buckley is also specifically referring to bye weeks, which is about the only time in season when you get a chance to recover from any extra (hard) training. Interesting that Buckley mirrors Burgess's take on in-season training, that it's basically all about recovery.

But I feel that Buckley has misinterpreted Selwood. "Big month coming up" surely refers to Geelong's upcoming matches against teams in/around the top 4. "We did a couple of hard weeks to prepare us for a big month of matches" makes sense. "We did a couple of hard weeks to prepare us for a hard month of training" ... not so much.

Edited by bing181
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4 hours ago, Stu said:

About 15 years ago I worked with someone who was a fairly accomplish amateur / semi-pro road (motor) bike rider (e.g. Superbikes). At the time when I worked with him, he mentored young up and coming riders. He said a big focus was on the concept of having $1 dollar of mental energy to spend. They'd assign a cost to things like gear changes (5 cents), cornering (10 cents), transitioning between turns (20 cents). He'd get them to rate it after 5 laps and than again after 25. The cost would always be higher the more fatigued they were. The learning for them was to get better and better at those skills to reduce the cost to properly execute them. This meant that fatigue had less impact resulting in a more consistent performance from start to finish. 

By way of comparison, this Dees team has had issues with delivery into the F50. With coaching and a lot of practise they've improved, but at their core they remain somewhat unskilled or inconsistent in this area. During a period of heavy loading players have less mental energy and focus due to fatigue, so unless they're naturally very gifted at F50 entries the quality of decision making is likely to be impacted. Unless it's second nature (from skill formed at a young age), fatigue will impact the execution and decision making with any aspect of the game. 

We saw very poor F50 entries happen during the Collingwood and GWS game last year, and we've seen it in the second half against Freo and Sydney, and most of the game last week.

Interesting Stu, thanks for posting your insights.

I wonder who generally has handled the loading better and for which skills over the past few weeks?

Unsurprisingly, it seems many of younger players have suffered the most, e.g., Jackson, Sparrow, etc.  Certainly Trac has suffered, but that could also be because of the type of power-oriented play and therefore loading he’s assigned. Bowey is one of our most skilled players but his reliability has been uncharacteristically off. 

On the other hand, Gawn was amazing against Sydney and seems to have handled it quite well over the last few matches.   Brayshaw also although probably in spurts. Petty also although I wonder if his multiple niggles meant his loading was lighter.  Jordon has done quite well. 

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Mentioned at the start of Goodies post game Presser. 

"We've had a hard 3-4 weeks on the track"

 

I think we have the proof that loading has been at least partly to blame for the pre bye slump

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30 minutes ago, Sideshow Bob said:

Mentioned at the start of Goodies post game Presser. 

"We've had a hard 3-4 weeks on the track"

 

I think we have the proof that loading has been at least partly to blame for the pre bye slump

Another clue earlier was when Goody kept saying 'at the moment's were not at our best, in a way that indicated it is a temporary form slump that they had planned for.

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21 minutes ago, Sideshow Bob said:

Mentioned at the start of Goodies post game Presser. 

"We've had a hard 3-4 weeks on the track"

Might as well get it right:

"We've worked incredibly hard the last 3-4 weeks on the training track".

Which could mean anything. Forward craft? Stoppage setups? 

Taking every off-hand comment as evidence that we're supposedly loading is just confirmation bias.

 

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4 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Might as well get it right:

"We've worked incredibly hard the last 3-4 weeks on the training track".

Which could mean anything. Forward craft? Stoppage setups? 

Taking every off-hand comment as evidence that we're supposedly loading is just confirmation bias.

 

Head in the sand, mate. Staggering some are still fighting this.

As has been noted, not everything will be plain sailing from here, but the heaviest of the loading is likely over. Tonight we were running on top of the ground and in waves. We won ground balls, got it to the outside and generally ran Brisbane off their feet.

Edited by A F
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If you want to know why that looked like a Melbourne game, it's because the players had the endurance and capacity to play that way. If you want to know why Melbourne looked so much better than any other team in September it's in part because of our fitness and conditioning. Our ability to score is tied intrinsically to our pressure and ability to run both ways. We may lose next week against Adelaide and win against Geelong (because of the vagaries of the fixture and nothing more) but it's with the bigger picture in mind. 

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41 minutes ago, Sideshow Bob said:

I think we have the proof that loading has been at least partly to blame for the pre bye slump

mmmm

well if loading caused the Collingwood loss we may need to rethink the process.

There's a balance and we missed it

Why would you load the whole team at once for example

I can understand tapering etc but why would you load against Freo and Sydney.

Had we won those 3 we could now load and manage to our hearts desire

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4 minutes ago, A F said:

the heaviest of the loading is likely over.

Someone from the club confirmed we were "loading"? Must have missed it.

We may have used the time around the bye to put in a couple of weeks of extra running or weights sessions - but that isn't loading, at best it's maintenance.

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32 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

mmmm

well if loading caused the Collingwood loss we may need to rethink the process.

There's a balance and we missed it

Why would you load the whole team at once for example

I can understand tapering etc but why would you load against Freo and Sydney.

Had we won those 3 we could now load and manage to our hearts desire

Because that's not how it works.

Read some of the excellent, detailed  information on this thread from posters like coach (the clue's in the name), stu, eo and others.

Periodisation is an exact science. The goal is to be in peak physical condition on preliminary final day. 

Delay the loading for 2-3 weeks and they reach peak condition on their post season trip to bali

Edited by binman
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17 minutes ago, binman said:

Because that's not how it works.

Read some of the excellent, detailed  information oj tgis thread from posters like coach (the club's in the name), stu, eo and others.

Periodisation is an exact science. The goal is to be in peak physical condition on preliminary final day. 

Delay the loading for 2-3 weeks and they reach peak condition on their post season trip to bali

Spot on @binman!

For the doubters...from Round 10 to 13 we had four games in Melbourne with mostly seven day breaks, and that's after a game against an historically poor Eagles team (round 9).

After a game of Aussie Rules football, players have run 10 to 15 km's (or more) so there's a lot of recovery needed to get players back to square one. To load during seasons involves using the training sessions right in the middle of games so there's enough time to recover after the preceding game and before the next fixture. A series of seven day breaks in your home state offers the best environment to do that. From here we play in Adelaide, Geelong, and Alice Springs. So what would you choose round 9-13 or rounds 15 to 18?

The FD took a risk. If Lever holds back from the marking contest against Freo and May ISN'T concussed it's at least 50/50 that we win that game from 30 points up. From there we likely win the Swans game and maybe the Pies too. Either way, we've been leading by at least 22 points against each of those teams in the last three weeks, and perhaps haven't quite done enough to put the result beyond doubt and suffered the consequence. 

We may have lost three in a row, but I firmly believe that tonight's game shows that Goodwin and the FD has been playing the long game. From here we go 6-2 and finish 17-5 😎.

Edited by Stu
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10 hours ago, bing181 said:

Someone from the club confirmed we were "loading"? Must have missed it.

We may have used the time around the bye to put in a couple of weeks of extra running or weights sessions - but that isn't loading, at best it's maintenance.

Please Bing, you said you were a researcher. Surely the mountain of evidence in this thread alone is enough for you to accept that the loading period is somewhere in the 8 week range.

And even if you refuse to accept that fact, surely you can't believe elite athletes could do two weeks of hard training in June and confer ANY benefit three and half months later on grand final day.

That Scott was referring to a couple of weeks of some extras at training when he said the goal was to be cherry ripe come finals, even if that risked finishing ninth?

Why would a top 4-5 team be impacted so badly by two weeks of hard training in June that it might cause them to miss finals?

I mean c'mon.

By your two week of extra training theory, the lions would have been up and about tonight.

Did you watch the game? We could won that game by 15 goals. Do you honestly think we are a 15 goal better side than the lions, the team who were above us on the ladder coming into the game.

The lions were out on their feet. Blind Freddy could see that. And they were fatigued as far back as their round 10 loss to the hawks, and have been in every game they have played since. That is six weeks.

They are doing what we are doing this year, what we did last year in this same period, what the tigers did in their three premiership years in this period and ditto for the Eagles in 2018.

As a researcher, how else would you explain such a clear pattern? It simply defies logic that it could be a coincidence.

Edited by binman
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A bit confused by this... I think loading is definitely a factor.  But I thought it would ramp up throughout the season until a few weeks out from finals?  Some saying the hardest bit is done??  I think the lions looked tonight like they were going through a bit of loading themselves - if that's the case and they are a week or two behind us, are they at more or less of an advantage when we get to finals?

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Might be going out on bit of a limb here.  I’m a ‘loading’ believer, but I reckon we freshened up a little for this game.  
I hope we resume loading up for the next few games and taper from around end of July.  May end up chewing my nails to the quick and see us lose a game or two.  I am happy to see workmanlike performances for the next month or so 
No point peaking right now and showing the opposition how good we really can be when we get going.  
That is for later on in the season- my wish being that when we begin the tapering process we smash sides like Collingwood and Carlton leading into the finals.   
Having said all that, what I saw tonight was definitely shades of what we did last year, and wasn’t it great.

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2 hours ago, A F said:

Head in the sand, mate. Staggering some are still fighting this.

As has been noted, not everything will be plain sailing from here, but the heaviest of the loading is likely over. Tonight we were running on top of the ground and in waves. We won ground balls, got it to the outside and generally ran Brisbane off their feet.

I reckon we might have finished Brisvegas' season tonight, they won't be making top 4 now.

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3 hours ago, Sideshow Bob said:

Mentioned at the start of Goodies post game Presser. 

"We've had a hard 3-4 weeks on the track"

We’ve gone very early if true. Maybe a pre-loading before the real loading, or going a slower longer burn so that the step up in intensity at the business end of the season isn’t as much of a shock?

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4 hours ago, Demon Disciple said:

We’ve gone very early if true. Maybe a pre-loading before the real loading, or going a slower longer burn so that the step up in intensity at the business end of the season isn’t as much of a shock? 

Think about it in this way... loading right now, doesn't mean there is not further loading. ie:Planned Progression...

image.thumb.png.975dc0d355d66da343c556296eed4a8c.png

@BW511 can explain it more thoroughly than I could.

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