2 hours ago, rjay said:

I wouldn't discount it either.

Taylor took him with our first round pick, we don't use that pick for development players.

I trust his acumen over some knightmare.

I hope JVR is pushing for it...really pushing for it.

He  must have the competitive spirit to say stuff that, I didn't come here to play at Casey...

If he's waiting to be developed then we got the wrong man.

Sam Weidemann? Would also argue that Pickett and Jackson were both drafted as development players that exceeded expectations early on. 

6 minutes ago, Deefiant said:

Sam Weidemann? Would also argue that Pickett and Jackson were both drafted as development players that exceeded expectations early on. 

Nup...there was always a lot of upside in both Pickett and Jackson for sure and there still is, but they were expected to play early on and did.

They were not picked as "development" players.

Weid I reckon backs up my position...he hasn't wanted it enough and has spent way to much time in "development"...

Van Rooooooo seems the opposite of a project type given his body looks AFL ready, as well as his versatility to play at either end

3 hours ago, The Jackson 6 said:

Possible Knightmare has never actually seen him play… wouldn’t be the first time he’s had an opinion on a player he’s never seen

Correct. I found Knightmare's Draft analysis interesting in the past, but he wouldn't have seen any of the draftees play live for the past 2 years, so I now take his opinion with a grain of salt. 

One just has to look at what is happening with Covid in the AFLW to realise that it's inevitable that a majority of the list may get a run this year.

I reckon that JVR and Weid are on equal footing. If injuries or form hit T Mac and BB, form at Casey will determine who gets the nod.

33 minutes ago, Deefiant said:

Would also argue that Pickett and Jackson were both drafted as development players that exceeded expectations early on. 

Wouldn't think so.

#31 at first glance does not have an AFL ready body.  I wonder if the body-size is overrated but rather what you do with it that counts.

On 10/8/2021 at 9:51 AM, whatwhat say what said:

is he a titch 'small' for a modern key position tall? they're more and more around the 200cm mark...

Shall we call him "Titch" then?

6 hours ago, rjay said:

Nup...there was always a lot of upside in both Pickett and Jackson for sure and there still is, but they were expected to play early on and did.

They were not picked as "development" players.

Weid I reckon backs up my position...he hasn't wanted it enough and has spent way to much time in "development"...

Bit of recency bias here. Pickett was picked up as a small forward that had knocks on him that he had x factor but would drift in and out of games, he's first pre season was also struggled with fitness. Jackson was a raw athletic ruck that, who Jason Taylor who thought could be thrown forward.

The fact that they developed more than we thought doesn't mean they weren't development players. In fact Rivers was probably the player who needed least development. 

23 hours ago, faultydet said:

People who go up one handed are often protecting themselves.

I didn't think it was that impressive at all to be honest. A bit like the Jack Watts goal early on at Casey that fluked through and people immediately thought we had a freak goal kicker on the list.

Looks a good size though. 

You do know a lot of the forwards practice the one hander when they're caught out of position? No, didn't know? I'm not trying to be an ah but it is the difference between un-informed comment from afar vs being able to attend training and directly observe what the players are practicing. Not saying JVR was out there practicing that but he certainly wasn't trying to "protect" himself. I also don't believe the coaching staff will be trying to discourage what he did.

Edited January 13, 20223 yr by dworship
further and better particulars

13 minutes ago, dworship said:

 I also don't believe the coaching staff will be trying to discourage what he did.

Discourage X factor? A large dose of X factor took us from 19 points down to stunned and demoralised oppo in 10 minutes of football.

Worker ants like ANB, Harmes, Spargo, are well and good (not discounting Harmes' little bit of X to start the riot) and every team needs them, but they don't give you bang bang bang to destroy a good team.

3 hours ago, Deefiant said:

Bit of recency bias here. Pickett was picked up as a small forward that had knocks on him that he had x factor but would drift in and out of games, he's first pre season was also struggled with fitness. Jackson was a raw athletic ruck that, who Jason Taylor who thought could be thrown forward.

The fact that they developed more than we thought doesn't mean they weren't development players. In fact Rivers was probably the player who needed least development. 

Not according to Darren Burgess. When asked on the Gus and Gawny podcast "who surprised you with their fitness when you started", Burgess mentioned that Pickett's endurance in addition to his speed was high level. So I'm not sure where you got that from.

20 hours ago, The Jackson 6 said:

Possible Knightmare has never actually seen him play… wouldn’t be the first time he’s had an opinion on a player he’s never seen

Ha ha Knightmare. Wasn’t he the one who argued that Luke Jackson didn’t deserve to be picked as high as number 3 in his draft?

😀

9 minutes ago, Freddy Fuschia said:

Ha ha Knightmare. Wasn’t he the one who argued that Luke Jackson didn’t deserve to be picked as high as number 3 in his draft?

😀

Yep, said Jackson was a second rounder!

Actually, he has made some horrible calls over the years. Didn't rate Oliver, Pickett was too high, compared Salem to a slow plodder, etc.

Because he spends so much time on drafting, people assume he knows what he is talking about. However, his assessment of talent and feel for the game are terrible.

1 hour ago, Freddy Fuschia said:

Ha ha Knightmare. Wasn’t he the one who argued that Luke Jackson didn’t deserve to be picked as high as number 3 in his draft?

😀

And whoever the filth pick was a bargain and masterstroke

Reading some of Knightmare's rankings on previous drafts, he never seems to like taking risks. He is not alone in that regard. And he is a pundit, not an experienced recruiter with access to a lot more information.

So a large majority of his top dozen or so picks in every draft are midfielders. He hardly ever sees a key position player, ruckman or small forward as worthy of top-10. Maybe he thinks of Brownlow medal votes, or he's been burnt by previous experience, as we all have. 

Hence he thought Jackson at 3 and Pickett at 12 were "reaches". He thought Green would be a far better pick than Jackson, and preferred Weightman over Pickett, listing "marking superiority" as a reason.

The problem with never taking risks is that you are always "safe". Being "safe" can mean that you miss out of the players that will make a dynamic difference to your side, if the other building blocks (e.g. power midfielders) are well in place.

In the 2019 draft, Melbourne didn't pick one midfielder. And what a draft it was!

4 hours ago, mauriesy said:

Reading some of Knightmare's rankings on previous drafts, he never seems to like taking risks. He is not alone in that regard. And he is a pundit, not an experienced recruiter with access to a lot more information.

So a large majority of his top dozen or so picks in every draft are midfielders. He hardly ever sees a key position player, ruckman or small forward as worthy of top-10. Maybe he thinks of Brownlow medal votes, or he's been burnt by previous experience, as we all have. 

Hence he thought Jackson at 3 and Pickett at 12 were "reaches". He thought Green would be a far better pick than Jackson, and preferred Weightman over Pickett, listing "marking superiority" as a reason.

The problem with never taking risks is that you are always "safe". Being "safe" can mean that you miss out of the players that will make a dynamic difference to your side, if the other building blocks (e.g. power midfielders) are well in place.

Well, if memory serves me correctly, he swooned about one ruck/KPP last year and probably thinks he was vindicated when that player was picked at 5. Wonder if that bloke’s training the house down at Carrara and whether, like Dogga, he’ll be a premiership ruckman by the end of his second season on an AFL list?

20 hours ago, dworship said:

You do know a lot of the forwards practice the one hander when they're caught out of position? No, didn't know? I'm not trying to be an ah but it is the difference between un-informed comment from afar vs being able to attend training and directly observe what the players are practicing. Not saying JVR was out there practicing that but he certainly wasn't trying to "protect" himself. I also don't believe the coaching staff will be trying to discourage what he did.

The post from the MFC was swooning over his one handed mark. I simply didn't think it was anything remarkable.

Fair dinkum, some of you get hysterical when someone douses your flames.

 

1 hour ago, faultydet said:

The post from the MFC was swooning over his one handed mark. I simply didn't think it was anything remarkable.

Fair dinkum, some of you get hysterical when someone douses your flames.

 

Yeah, nah. The one handed mark was nice and deserved some kudos but the thing about him that’s impressed me is his record over a few seasons and his performances that we were able to witness over a few WAFL Colts and WA representative games. We all acknowledge that he has a fair way to go. The beauty is that at Melbourne in 2022, his chances of getting a well rounded football grounding are so much better than the chances Jack Watts had 12 or 13 years ago.

10 hours ago, mauriesy said:

Reading some of Knightmare's rankings on previous drafts, he never seems to like taking risks. He is not alone in that regard. And he is a pundit, not an experienced recruiter with access to a lot more information.

So a large majority of his top dozen or so picks in every draft are midfielders. He hardly ever sees a key position player, ruckman or small forward as worthy of top-10. Maybe he thinks of Brownlow medal votes, or he's been burnt by previous experience, as we all have. 

Hence he thought Jackson at 3 and Pickett at 12 were "reaches". He thought Green would be a far better pick than Jackson, and preferred Weightman over Pickett, listing "marking superiority" as a reason.

The problem with never taking risks is that you are always "safe". Being "safe" can mean that you miss out of the players that will make a dynamic difference to your side, if the other building blocks (e.g. power midfielders) are well in place.

In the 2019 draft, Melbourne didn't pick one midfielder. And what a draft it was!

Knightmare article rating 2019 draft choices (dated 29/11/2019):

Melbourne

Traded wisely and secured value in their trade with Fremantle. The move back allowed Melbourne to add pick 28 and a future fourth round pick without a meaningful move back down the order from pick 8 to 10. While Melbourne's trade looks on paper like value was acquired, their first two picks of ruckman Luke Jackson and small forward pressure specialist Kysaiah Pickett are arguably reaches. Jackson, a sub 200cm ruckman is athletic, plays with aggression and follows up well but was arguably not the best available player. Similarly, Pickett while the forward pressure he applies is of a best in draft standard and he has speed and is damaging with ball in hand, his low scoreboard impact and product makes him a difficult sell so early on. Trent Rivers, who Melbourne secured thanks to their trade with Fremantle represents strong value at what after bidding became pick 32. Rivers is a classy ball user off half-back who moves well and can push through the midfield as a ball winner.

Grade: C

Collingwood

Improved their draft hand slightly in the latter half of the draft to increase their involvement without losing a lot. Jay Rantall represents strong value as a basketball convert with elite endurance who does his best work inside winning the contested ball, distributing by hand and moving through traffic. Oakleigh premiership captain Trent Bianco is a second selection who represents strong value as one of the best kicks in the draft and the most advanced outside player in the pool. Trey Ruscoe at 192cm with his versatility to play defence, midfield or forward, is a third solid selection with his skills, mobility, ball winning capabilities and the way he reads the ball in flight and takes marks. Though the question of whether Collingwood should have retained pick 51 to draft key forward Jake Riccardi rather than trade it to GWS who used the pick to draft the VFL's Fothergill-Round-Mitchell Medal is a question that will be asked given Collingwood's lacking key position stocks.

Grade: A

Note: Rantall has already been delisted

Edited January 14, 20223 yr by adonski

1 hour ago, Whispering_Jack said:

Yeah, nah. The one handed mark was nice and deserved some kudos but the thing about him that’s impressed me is his record over a few seasons and his performances that we were able to witness over a few WAFL Colts and WA representative games. We all acknowledge that he has a fair way to go. The beauty is that at Melbourne in 2022, his chances of getting a well rounded football grounding are so much better than the chances Jack Watts had 12 or 13 years ago.

*sigh*

 

I commented on ONE Mark, not his entire career.

He might be a champ. Let's hope he is. But I did not write him off over a single mark at training.

 

Why can't people see that?

4 hours ago, faultydet said:

The post from the MFC was swooning over his one handed mark. I simply didn't think it was anything remarkable.

Fair dinkum, some of you get hysterical when someone douses your flames.

 

Misfire, wait 20mins next time.

Fair dinkum, you get hysterical when someone douses your flames.

Edited January 14, 20223 yr by dworship

1 hour ago, adonski said:

Knightmare article rating 2019 draft choices (dated 29/11/2019):

Melbourne

Traded wisely and secured value in their trade with Fremantle. The move back allowed Melbourne to add pick 28 and a future fourth round pick without a meaningful move back down the order from pick 8 to 10. While Melbourne's trade looks on paper like value was acquired, their first two picks of ruckman Luke Jackson and small forward pressure specialist Kysaiah Pickett are arguably reaches. Jackson, a sub 200cm ruckman is athletic, plays with aggression and follows up well but was arguably not the best available player. Similarly, Pickett while the forward pressure he applies is of a best in draft standard and he has speed and is damaging with ball in hand, his low scoreboard impact and product makes him a difficult sell so early on. Trent Rivers, who Melbourne secured thanks to their trade with Fremantle represents strong value at what after bidding became pick 32. Rivers is a classy ball user off half-back who moves well and can push through the midfield as a ball winner.

Grade: C

Collingwood

Improved their draft hand slightly in the latter half of the draft to increase their involvement without losing a lot. Jay Rantall represents strong value as a basketball convert with elite endurance who does his best work inside winning the contested ball, distributing by hand and moving through traffic. Oakleigh premiership captain Trent Bianco is a second selection who represents strong value as one of the best kicks in the draft and the most advanced outside player in the pool. Trey Ruscoe at 192cm with his versatility to play defence, midfield or forward, is a third solid selection with his skills, mobility, ball winning capabilities and the way he reads the ball in flight and takes marks. Though the question of whether Collingwood should have retained pick 51 to draft key forward Jake Riccardi rather than trade it to GWS who used the pick to draft the VFL's Fothergill-Round-Mitchell Medal is a question that will be asked given Collingwood's lacking key position stocks.

Grade: A

Note: Rantall has already been delisted

Would it be a wild guess to suggest that this Knightmare is a Collingwood fan?

6 minutes ago, Apocalypse XXXI said:

Would it be a wild guess to suggest that this Knightmare is a Collingwood fan?

On 1/13/2022 at 1:29 PM, rjay said:

Nup...there was always a lot of upside in both Pickett and Jackson for sure and there still is, but they were expected to play early on and did.

They were not picked as "development" players.

Weid I reckon backs up my position...he hasn't wanted it enough and has spent way to much time in "development"...

Jackson is a remarkable athlete and also capable of playing a role for which he was the standout option very early on really. Being able to hold up in the ruck in year and even more so in year 2 meant he was just about a lock in the side and could play quiet games.

Further to that if the draft is a Bell curve then JVR at pick 19 is really miles from Jackson at pick 3 and somewhere between Weid, Pickett and Bowey, Laurie, Spargo, Sparrow, Rivers, JJ and even Petty.

Of all those players he might remind me most of a key forward version of Sparrow. Athletic, decent build, likely to have a crack, but with a fair amount of development work to really contribute and find a role behind a  number of strong team mates. 

But there's a range of options from Bowey's flag in 7 games to someone like Spargo. Making a real difference in year 1 as a skinny kid but taking unitl year 4 to really put it together consistently. 

10 hours ago, adonski said:

Knightmare article rating 2019 draft choices (dated 29/11/2019):

Melbourne

Traded wisely and secured value in their trade with Fremantle. The move back allowed Melbourne to add pick 28 and a future fourth round pick without a meaningful move back down the order from pick 8 to 10. While Melbourne's trade looks on paper like value was acquired, their first two picks of ruckman Luke Jackson and small forward pressure specialist Kysaiah Pickett are arguably reaches. Jackson, a sub 200cm ruckman is athletic, plays with aggression and follows up well but was arguably not the best available player. Similarly, Pickett while the forward pressure he applies is of a best in draft standard and he has speed and is damaging with ball in hand, his low scoreboard impact and product makes him a difficult sell so early on. Trent Rivers, who Melbourne secured thanks to their trade with Fremantle represents strong value at what after bidding became pick 32. Rivers is a classy ball user off half-back who moves well and can push through the midfield as a ball winner.

Grade: C

Collingwood

Improved their draft hand slightly in the latter half of the draft to increase their involvement without losing a lot. Jay Rantall represents strong value as a basketball convert with elite endurance who does his best work inside winning the contested ball, distributing by hand and moving through traffic. Oakleigh premiership captain Trent Bianco is a second selection who represents strong value as one of the best kicks in the draft and the most advanced outside player in the pool. Trey Ruscoe at 192cm with his versatility to play defence, midfield or forward, is a third solid selection with his skills, mobility, ball winning capabilities and the way he reads the ball in flight and takes marks. Though the question of whether Collingwood should have retained pick 51 to draft key forward Jake Riccardi rather than trade it to GWS who used the pick to draft the VFL's Fothergill-Round-Mitchell Medal is a question that will be asked given Collingwood's lacking key position stocks.

Grade: A

Note: Rantall has already been delisted

As recently as 12 months ago he was still banging on about the fact he was miffed Melbourne didn’t call out Tom Green’s name on the night.  HE WASNT AVAILABLE TO US YOU TALENTLESS CLOWN.