4 hours ago, Lucifers Hero said:

The point was that the impact of influenza can be just as bad as covid and we need more people have flu vaccines to avoid dealing with both diseases simultaneously.

My point is that whilst on an individual case by case level this might true, on a community wide level it isn't.

I might be wrong (paging webber). but this excerpt from the info referenced seems pretty conclusive that the impact of influenza is not as bad as covid:

• 'when compared with seasonal flu, covid was associated with an increased risk of extrapulmonary organ dysfunction, death, and increased health resource use, such as a fivefold higher risk of admission to intensive care and longer stays in hospital.'

In short, a flu outbreak won't overwhelm our health systems. Covid will - as Europe is tragically about to discover.

Agree though we  need more people have flu vaccines to avoid dealing with both diseases simultaneously.

Edited November 22, 20213 yr by binman

2 hours ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I like the Singapore model. In that country, if you've chosen to remain unvaccinated, you have to pay for all your health care costs associated with catching Covid. However, I can't see that happening here. Instead, I would support an additional Medicare levy being imposed on those who remain unvaccinated by choice. That levy would help defray - but probably not fully cover - the health cover costs for the unvaccinated who we know will be more likely to contract Covid and if they do, be more likely to require hospital treatment.

I realise that the above is a stick, not a carrot. I'm not sure we need any further rewards to encourage the late adopters. I think the model whereby exclusion from things such as entertainment, non-essential retail and events should be sufficient.

wouldn't it be easier to just euthenise them?

Just now, daisycutter said:

wouldn't it be easier to just euthenise them?

No need. Darwinian theory should come to the fore.

17 hours ago, bing181 said:

Mask wearing cuts infections by 53 per cent

(Link to the original study (BMJ) included in the article)

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2237475-covid-19-news-mask-wearing-cuts-infections-by-53-per-cent/#ixzz7CpklpyN9

Not to mention the fact that it also reduces the risk of passing on influenza and other airborne illnesses; the things that have an enormous impact of productivity by loss of man hours, over many many years.  People have been wearing masks as a common courtesy in Asian countries for many decades.

6 hours ago, binman said:

Covid will - as Europe is tragically about to discover.

Not all of Europe, touch wood.

35 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Not all of Europe, touch wood.

Good point. France seems to be in ok shape. Long may it continue Bing.

A couple of questions:

What is the Vax rate there

France were  one of the first countries to implement mandates and Vax passports. What is the majority public sentiment about these policies?

 

14 minutes ago, binman said:

What is the Vax rate there

France were  one of the first countries to implement mandates and Vax passports. What is the majority public sentiment about these policies?

Rate for most age groups is around 90%, higher in the over 65's. 12 -17 year olds are catching up, nearly 80%. But it's not uniform, and there are some areas with lower vax rates, and these are also the ones driving the cases. (funny how that works ...). These are also, incidentally, the areas where the right-wing National Front is strongest (funny how that works again ...).

There had been protests when it first came in, especially around mandating vaccinations for health workers, but that died down fairly quickly. Once again though, this was (just) another reason to get out on the streets, and on the back of the Yellow Vest (gilet jaune) protests almost had a "what are we here for today again?" feel to it.

But overall, and considering how grumpy and anti-authoritarian many French people are, it's at least tolerated without too much pushback. You also have to remember that we've had terrorist attacks here over the last few years, so people are kind of used to security and bag-checking going into shops, trains etc., and it's just one more check. The passport is basically a QR code on your phone, so it's fairly painless. I think the overall vibe is that people really appreciate being able to just do stuff - we had on/off lockdowns for nearly 15 months, and restaurants/cafes were closed from October to May, so there's a kind of willingness to comply given the alternatives. Also, more recently, seeing what's happening around us in Europe, people are appreciating that there isn't another lockdown here, or even (for the moment at least) a threat of one. Macron will walk in his reelection at this rate.

22 hours ago, hardtack said:

Not to mention the fact that it also reduces the risk of passing on influenza and other airborne illnesses; the things that have an enormous impact of productivity by loss of man hours, over many many years.  People have been wearing masks as a common courtesy in Asian countries for many decades.

Unfortunately we have too many selfish people here 'hardtack'...

Their freedom is so important they think it's ok to infect others.

This is not what I would call a civil society or good culture.

On 11/22/2021 at 11:50 AM, Lucifers Hero said:

The point was that the impact of influenza can be just as bad as covid and we need more people have flu vaccines to avoid dealing with both diseases simultaneously.

Interestingly, some people are happy to have a flu shot but not a Covid shot, even though Covid is far more serious in terms of death and long-term complications. Flu shots have been around for longer and this probably affects judgements.

Some old people who contract the flu also get pneumonia, and the two combined are a leading cause of death, especially in the aged. So a pneumococcal shot is important as well as an annual flu shot.

As far as I know, there is no such thing as "long-flu".

9 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

Interestingly, some people are happy to have a flu shot but not a Covid shot, even though Covid is far more serious in terms of death and long-term complications. Flu shots have been around for longer and this probably affects judgements.

Some old people who contract the flu also get pneumonia, and the two combined are a leading cause of death, especially in the aged. So a pneumococcal shot is important as well as an annual flu shot.

As far as I know, there is no such thing as "long-flu".

People also suffer 'long flu', study shows

This t-shirt is not just about Covid. It's also a metaphor for AFL gameplans.

On 11/22/2021 at 9:45 AM, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I like the Singapore model. In that country, if you've chosen to remain unvaccinated, you have to pay for all your health care costs associated with catching Covid. However, I can't see that happening here. Instead, I would support an additional Medicare levy being imposed on those who remain unvaccinated by choice. That levy would help defray - but probably not fully cover - the health cover costs for the unvaccinated who we know will be more likely to contract Covid and if they do, be more likely to require hospital treatment.

I realise that the above is a stick, not a carrot. I'm not sure we need any further rewards to encourage the late adopters. I think the model whereby exclusion from things such as entertainment, non-essential retail and events should be sufficient.

The unvaccinated paying higher premiums for health insurance is now happening in some instances in the USA. However, their health scheme and funding of it is so drastically different from ours, no conclusion should be drawn from this example as to whether something similar will follow here.  

Nineteen Covid deaths in Victoria yesterday. Seventeen of them unvaccinated.

Starting to see reports from around the World that the booster take up is substantially less than the original vax rate. For example in Malaysia 40% of people eligible for boosters haven't turned up.

The human race never ceases to amaze me with its stupidity.

https://www.nst.com.my/news/nation/2021/11/747859/govt-has-booster-shot-plan-b

Edited November 23, 20213 yr by Diamond_Jim

If people are wondering why we are still getting a number of covid cases in Victoria, there are at least 7 municipalities that are lagging behind the rest with regards to vaccination rates

The following percentages and real numbers apply to those aged 16 and over

It's important to note that Victoria overall is sitting at 89.60% fully vaccinated

Yarra 75.3% (approximately 22,000 people not fully vaccinated)

Stonnington 80.2% (20,000)

Darebin 79.0% (30,000)

Maribyrnong 81.20% (15,000)

Melbourne 72.9% (46,000)

Moreland 80.3% (31,000)

Port Phillip 77.9% (23,000)

As as we've seen from the overseas models, even 80% vaccinated just isn't a big enough percentage to quell covid

And nearly all of those municipalities listed above are inner city and high density

Other patterns within those municipalities could be indentified as well

 

Footnote; The percentages and real numbers are based on historic population numbers for each of the municipalities ... and those numbers might be a bit skewed with the (now) lower numbers of overseas students.  So for instance, the numbers for 'Melbourne' may or may not be correct

Edited November 23, 20213 yr by Macca

5 hours ago, mauriesy said:

Interestingly, some people are happy to have a flu shot but not a Covid shot, even though Covid is far more serious in terms of death and long-term complications. Flu shots have been around for longer and this probably affects judgements.

Some old people who contract the flu also get pneumonia, and the two combined are a leading cause of death, especially in the aged. So a pneumococcal shot is important as well as an annual flu shot.

As far as I know, there is no such thing as "long-flu".

I find this interesting also.  Their was a article on a guy in the Age saying he was happy to have a Flu vaccine but not Covid. Really makes no sense to me. The Flu vaccine is different each year, new strains identified and added each year, it does not go through stringent clinical trials before release and yet people are OK with this but won't take the covid vaccine??

2 hours ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Starting to see reports from around the World that the booster take up is substantially less than the original vax rate. For example in Malaysia 40% of people eligible for boosters haven't turned up.

The human race never ceases to amaze me with its stupidity.

https://www.nst.com.my/news/nation/2021/11/747859/govt-has-booster-shot-plan-b

I am surprised that you seem surprised DJ. 

11 minutes ago, DubDee said:

I find this interesting also.  Their was a article on a guy in the Age saying he was happy to have a Flu vaccine but not Covid. Really makes no sense to me. The Flu vaccine is different each year, new strains identified and added each year, it does not go through stringent clinical trials before release and yet people are OK with this but won't take the covid vaccine??

AZ was demonised early on DD and that has transferred to all vaccines. We can thank the QLD chief medical woman and then  the Pm for calling a press conference at 10pm on a Sunday night saying people under 50 should not take AZ. The rest is a history lesson in how not to run a public health program. 

43 minutes ago, old dee said:

AZ was demonised early on DD and that has transferred to all vaccines. We can thank the QLD chief medical woman and then  the Pm for calling a press conference at 10pm on a Sunday night saying people under 50 should not take AZ. The rest is a history lesson in how not to run a public health program. 

Agree the handling of AZ was a train wreck and I don’t blame an everyday person for being confused and concerned

medical professionals have become ****scared of saying a vaccine is safe as they may end up in court

55 minutes ago, old dee said:

I am surprised that you seem surprised DJ. 

i'm not surprised, od, that you seem surprised that he is surprised

12 hours ago, DubDee said:

I find this interesting also.  Their was a article on a guy in the Age saying he was happy to have a Flu vaccine but not Covid. Really makes no sense to me. The Flu vaccine is different each year, new strains identified and added each year, it does not go through stringent clinical trials before release and yet people are OK with this but won't take the covid vaccine??

The flu vax is not changed in any ways that need extended trials. It is safe because it’s a known, tested quantity, much like the current Covid vax, albeit this fact still escapes many. The cognitive dissonance, as you say, makes no sense. As to the ‘impact’ of flu compared to Covid discussed earlier, there’s a galaxy of difference. Covid kills with ~ 150 times more efficiency than the flu. It also, because of the need for hospital respiratory support in so many who do survive but get seriously sick, cripples health systems. The only quantities that need referencing in respect to flu and Covid are the R-0 number comparisons (Delta’s special skill), and deaths per 100,000 (or whatever number). These alone tell the story - relative infectiousness and mortality. 
 

A fascinating illustration of the AZ ‘fear f-up’ is the thankfully little-reported fact that the Pfizer vax causes pericarditis in > 50 people per million. Compare this to AZ’s ~4 people per million incidence of thrombocytopenia. Just like death, risk in life is certain. The problem is too many people being baffled by concepts of its relativity. 
 

On 11/22/2021 at 12:01 PM, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

No need. Darwinian theory should come to the fore.

It is just too slow for me. And there's the same problem that means it hasn't even worked for suicide bombers; they often have time to produce offspring before detonating.

I've got a very strong commitment to the social contract, the safety net, and a society that doesn't leave people to die of starvation in ditches, but when people call nurses and doctors 'medico-fascist' and will later expect to be triaged into ICU taking critical resources away from blameless others, my inclusiveness is sorely tested.

Feel free to tap your desk in irritation while contemplating that whole countries are going back into lockdown solely because of anti-vaxxers and also very much to protect those same people who refuse to do a most basic thing to protect themselves.

I also haven't seen any stalls set up at the nuffy-marches where people can sign a commitment to not accept the several thousand dollars worth of treatment a significant Covid19 case requires and which the community will, despite everything, provide to them.

The mood could change a little when we see something tangible like the AFL 2022 season disrupted because of this gitswarm.

16 hours ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Starting to see reports from around the World that the booster take up is substantially less than the original vax rate. For example in Malaysia 40% of people eligible for boosters haven't turned up.

The human race never ceases to amaze me with its stupidity.

https://www.nst.com.my/news/nation/2021/11/747859/govt-has-booster-shot-plan-b

Yes DJ

You only need to spend a lil time here to confirm that🤪

 

The AFL cases keep happening.  At the Giants, an AFLW and an AFL player test positive.  As does Brian Cook, CEO at Carlton.  All fully vaccinated.

Edited November 24, 20213 yr by Lucifers Hero