Game plans, tactics and all that jazz

[layzie 28,721]

4 hours ago, Binmans PA said:

Gonna stick this here for discussion on what needs to/could change tactically next year.

I'd be looking to do something different with the 7th defender. So instead of playing B7-M8-F7, I'd be trying to play a third winger (B6-W1-M8-F7). So probably Hunter, Langdon and ANB from W1 and M8. Which means abandoning the loose intercepting / attacking half back that Gus played last year (less attacking) and Rivers played this year (more attacking).

But instead, I'd be allowing two of our running backs more licence up the ground to run and carry (say Rivers and Bowey or maybe even McVee), use two of the wingers as defensive wing backs to slot in behind them and cover space or their men (and play as interceptors or 1v1s, ensuring the ball comes to ground), and give the attacking players more licence to try and hit central kicks through the corridor to higher mids or forwards in Trac, Fritta and McAdam pushing higher up the ground. This is with the knowledge we'd have extras behind the ball (at least two wingers) to repel a turnover attack.

It's basically utilising a similar set up to Klopp at Liverpool, but with more players. It would take great coaching and discipline from our players, but I think so much football/soccer strategy has been adopted by the AFL in the last decade, that it's only going to continue. 

Goody has also been an innovator over the journey with the inside slider, the diamond defence, the extras at the stoppage, then the deficit at the stoppage, the focus on post stoppage pressure and so on.

We have to find intricate ways to maintain our defensive positioning and impregnability, whilst being able to play fast and contested. This is one way.

You may very well have unleashed the use of Soccer formations in our game @Binmans PA!

I don't mind the concept at all. It's like a bulking of the midfield similar to Collingwood but with with some 'defensive midfielders' who would work back to cover the space and force the intercept advantage. 

I don't know how easy it would be to implement but it could definitely help us stretch the field.

[Binmans PA 26,049]

52 minutes ago, layzie said:

You may very well have unleashed the use of Soccer formations in our game @Binmans PA!

I don't mind the concept at all. It's like a bulking of the midfield similar to Collingwood but with with some 'defensive midfielders' who would work back to cover the space and force the intercept advantage. 

I don't know how easy it would be to implement but it could definitely help us stretch the field.

I think we've already been doing this soccer formation analogy with the Rivers/Gus position. They been given licence to float across in front of packs and roam free and someone has to push up to cover their man. It's likely a winger, or we use one less at the stoppage.

But I do think it's a good way of thinking about the AFL game tactically.

[Diamond_Jim 11,744]

8 minutes ago, Binmans PA said:

I think we've already been doing this soccer formation analogy with the Rivers/Gus position. They been given licence to float across in front of packs and roam free and someone has to push up to cover their man. It's likely a winger, or we use one less at the stoppage.

But I do think it's a good way of thinking about the AFL game tactically.

I suppose our bomb to the pocket is the AFL version of the wing attack followed by the cross.

Strangely enough that became obsolete at the top level at least 10 years ago. (Apologies to the Socceroos who persisted with the style through Robbie Kruse for all those years)

Mbappe slicing through the middle on an angle is closer to the Collingwood style perhaps

[Binmans PA 26,049]

11 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

I suppose our bomb to the pocket is the AFL version of the wing attack followed by the cross.

Strangely enough that became obsolete at the top level at least 10 years ago. (Apologies to the Socceroos who persisted with the style through Robbie Kruse for all those years)

Mbappe slicing through the middle on an angle is closer to the Collingwood style perhaps

You need strong, powerful strikers if you're going to play the long ball or rely on crosses.

Collingwood are more like Liverpool under Brendan Rogers, super aggressive, but suspect at the back system wise. 

Liverpool almost won the 2014 title had Gerrard not slipped against Chelsea or surrendered a 3-0 lead at Crystal Palace late in the season.

It's yet to be seen whether Collingwood have their own Gerrard slip up this weekend or next.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Binmans PA

[Dee Viney Intervention 1,483]

It hasn’t been a great week Binmans PA and now you bring up Stevie G slipping over……..thanks 

[Binmans PA 26,049]

3 minutes ago, Dee Viney Intervention said:

It hasn’t been a great week Binmans PA and now you bring up Stevie G slipping over……..thanks 

Well, if you follow the reds like me, you'll have had at least one good result this week. 

[Dee Viney Intervention 1,483]

4 minutes ago, Binmans PA said:

Well, if you follow the reds like me, you'll have had at least one good result this week. 

I do, but it’s a red card for you for the Stevie G flashback

[MoeSyzlak 546]

4 hours ago, Binmans PA said:

It's yet to be seen whether Collingwood have their own Gerrard slip up this weekend or next.

 

[layzie 28,721]

18 hours ago, Binmans PA said:

You need strong, powerful strikers if you're going to play the long ball or rely on crosses.

Collingwood are more like Liverpool under Brendan Rogers, super aggressive, but suspect at the back system wise. 

Liverpool almost won the 2014 title had Gerrard not slipped against Chelsea or surrendered a 3-0 lead at Crystal Palace late in the season.

It's yet to be seen whether Collingwood have their own Gerrard slip up this weekend or next.

Excellent comparison.  

And yes with the 'route one' direct approach you need that target man doing the donkey work, getting knock downs and holding the ball up with back to goal. It's really quite similar and this is why it doesn't surprise me when I hear about some coaches like Clarko looking to the other sports for research.

[layzie 28,721]

18 hours ago, Binmans PA said:

Well, if you follow the reds like me, you'll have had at least one good result this week. 

 

18 hours ago, Dee Viney Intervention said:

I do, but it’s a red card for you for the Stevie G flashback

Do you guys know what Europa streams on? It's probably Stan yeah?

PS: Responses to this question 1 post max, otherwise we'll have our butts kicked for talking Soccer in a footy thread 🤪

[Dee Viney Intervention 1,483]

1 hour ago, layzie said:

 

Do you guys know what Europa streams on? It's probably Stan yeah?

PS: Responses to this question 1 post max, otherwise we'll have our butts kicked for talking Soccer in a footy thread 🤪

Stan / Optus YNWA

[Engorged Onion 9,262]

Hey fellow Dees Devotees,

The air is thick with reflections pondering, and aggressive drive bys on the forum dressed up as ‘asking the crucial questions that no one else has the cajoles to do so’.

Anyway as we've witnessed our team maintain a consistent top 4 presence but not clinch the premiership. It’s a pivotal moment for our Football Department to reassess, strategically recalibrate, and capitalise on the strengths within our i list.

With our list’s flexibilty, we have the opportunity to control the tempo, and as evidenced, we seemed to win in different ways throughout the year, suggesting flexibilty and composure. Not just wrestling it back to our method.

Our squad boasts diverse talents allowing for a dynamic shift in roles. I’m interested in our teams adaptability and allowing us to exploit the identified weaknesses in other contenders strategies and setups.

Given the strength of our midfield unit, there’s a decisive advantage to be gained in contested situations. By intensifying our focus on mastering contested ball skills, we can disrupt and dismantle opponent play in critical match scenarios. We will have a new coach with new ideas, I am excited about what strategies and analytics are brought in.

Our forward line has the potential to elevate and intensify pressure, forcing critical turnovers and allowing us to capitalize on oppositions errors. We didn’t have the cattle at the right time of year - I think people genuinely forget it. 

With adept intercept markers, a strategic refinement in our defensive structures will help the ball carrying and ball movement out of the back to try to distrupt defensive structures of other teams…

By leveraging our squad's  fitness levels and endurance, which in my view was beyond most other teams,  can we continue to  secure a competitive edge and dominate even in the closing minutes of the game.

Some thoughts around the trends of the game going forward. is the explosiveness and quick ball movement is fine when you have it, and how do you best counteract it - and where do you try to cut it off - particularly if we tend to have lots of repeat inside 50’s… and that seems problematic with the density of the forward line - sure media pundits keep suggesting we bomb it long - as that is the only strategy - but [censored] it, so does every other club - and when it comes off its a great pack mark (see Cox last night) and that could have easily been dropped and rebounded, and thus interpreted as ‘dumb play’. 

What strategies are there to employ considering the list that we have. I look forward to some good input over the summer lull. 

[dpositive 1,547]

A group of us had our post season lunch and the common thread was that we felt we had a good list which required little modification and the club seems to be well placed. Bad kicking was the key for most.

Couldnt see the wisdom in the Grundy situation. He did replace MAx when he went down and why strengthen Sydney. 

Smith seems to be very silly after finally getting in the frame.

Clarry needs the support that Max seems to be offering.

Hope the club has a HR position /department that follows the old personnel role rather than the corporate model.

WE watch with interest the coaching with emphasis on kicking while i wa alone in looking for improved structure. 

I have previously promoted what I call Churn, and was interested to see the forwards lining up in a line from centre to FF with no one in the pocket. The line would change for every ball up as players progressed through the line. It was similar to the churn which is where players constantly move around with each geographic location containing a player but varying exactly due to skillset etc. Allows the blind release as each player knows when they move into another space someone will move into their previous space. Also allows match ups to occur which can exploit opposition being rigid. The Churn can be employed to load a particular side of the play and can be employed for a period and then revert to a more static structure.

will watch with interest this seasons innovation from Goody.

[Winners at last 4,727]

Whatever happened to 'the huddle' from kickouts?

[Binmans PA 26,049]

6 minutes ago, Winners at last said:

Whatever happened to 'the huddle' from kickouts?

We did do something like this on one particular ocassion against, I think, Hawthorn later in the season. Except, the huddle was positioned in the middle of the centre square, rather than as CHB. This surprised them and we got the ball to the wing uncontested from memory.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Binmans PA

[jnrmac 18,953]

I think we have overdone the kick ins to Max down the left side.

I am pretty shrewd and I reckon the comp is onto us. Just a hunch

[Half forward flank 1,022]

The most important change needs to be Goodys reaction times to making changes. He always appears to be making moves after the general concences of when a move should occur. He is usually on the side of caution. 

[whatwhat say what 18,918]

47 minutes ago, Half forward flank said:

The most important change needs to be Goodys reaction times to making changes. He always appears to be making moves after the general concences of when a move should occur. He is usually on the side of caution. 

neil craig taught - same crowbot approach

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

 

1 hour ago, Half forward flank said:

The most important change needs to be Goodys reaction times to making changes. He always appears to be making moves after the general concences of when a move should occur. He is usually on the side of caution. 

I would go one step further and say team selection is the number one coaching issue we have.

In 2022 we ran players into the ground (because we got away with it in 2021, maybe it was luck and maybe it was Burgess) while Casey players who were having an historic season couldn’t get a look in.

In 2023 we constantly seemed to mess around with forward and backline structures (even putting injuries aside) which culminated in the worst coaching decision of all time by selecting Schache as sun over Hibberd and Grundy and not even playing him!

[Diamond_Jim 11,744]

16 hours ago, jnrmac said:

I think we have overdone the kick ins to Max down the left side.

I am pretty shrewd and I reckon the comp is onto us. Just a hunch

I guess we are working on the other side thinking.... they wouldn't be stupid enough to try that again

[whatwhat say what 18,918]

15 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

I guess we are working on the other side thinking.... they wouldn't be stupid enough to try that again

i presume it's got to do with the regularity of repitition - if the rest of the team knows what we're going to do then it's better to have that conformity of approach

Edited October 31, 2023 by whatwhat say what

[von 1,219]

1 hour ago, Half forward flank said:

The most important change needs to be Goodys reaction times to making changes. He always appears to be making moves after the general concences of when a move should occur. He is usually on the side of caution. 

Disagree

[Watson11 1,882]

Thought I would bump this thread to talk about stoppages which are hurting us this year.  It always amazes me that teams (ie us) can have a dominant ruckman and still get smashed in stoppages.

Last night there were 85 stoppages.  Lions won 44 clearances (more than half) despite only winning 27 hit outs.  We win 35 clearances.

My question/frustration is that there must be a better way than what currently seems to be a random outcome from our ruck dominance.  We adopt a lot of innovations from other sports in AFL.

Should teams with dominant ruckman like us at the moment, adopt a quarterback approach with Max using numbers and colours before a bounce/throwin so everyone in our team knows exactly where the ball is going if Max wins the tap.  Or are gridiron players just smarter than afl players and so they can retain a complex set of number/colour sequences to denote all the different plays?

[DeeSpencer 23,125]

They do have calls, especially at centre bounces and forward 50.

In the back half you’re mostly going boundary or pumping it down the line.

Im not convinced Max has ever been a dominant tap ruck, and he certainly hasn’t been for a few years. He doesn’t leap and get control of the ball from a height required to hit it multiple directions, most rucks don’t.

Over the last few years Max has found more success grabbing it from the ruck and handballing or kicking. But that’s hard early in games where the pressure is red hot and his opponent is fresh.

Centre bounces especially…What’s the issue right now? I think it’s mostly a midfield problem. Oliver’s not right, Viney and Tracc aren’t at their best and Sparrow just isn’t a great centre bounce player, he gets caught flat footed a lot. We lack speed on the deck. Max is getting blocked up by rucks coming across the centre line which makes it obvious where he’s hitting it and they’re sweating on our taps 

[Diamond_Jim 11,744]

14 minutes ago, Watson11 said:

My question/frustration is that there must be a better way than what currently seems to be a random outcome from our ruck dominance.  We adopt a lot of innovations from other sports in AFL.

Mfc has had a dominant ruckman for 20 plus years but we have never dominated clearances on a consistent basis.

Why... I think it is simply that while Gawn has a plan as to where he would like to hit it the reality of the ruck duel is that precision is rare