Where did it all go wrong for the Demons?

[Supreme_Demon 3,849]

Being born in the early 1980's meant I missed out on the Glory Days of the 1950's and early 1960's.

 

We all know about the sacking of Norm Smith and Ron Barassi Jnr moving to Carlton. Two things that should never have happened.

 

But I want to know what else happened? Why did the Melbourne Football Club fail so miserably and fall into decline from the late 1960's into the 1970s?

 

Who was responsible for the missed opportunities of recruiting players or the development of players? Who is responsible for our lack of success during that time?

 

I also want to know why the Melbourne Football Club board didn't support Norm Smith 100% (rightly or wrongly) when he allegedly called an umpire a "cheat" in 1963? Why didn't they back him? Why didn't they do more to support their Premiership coach? At least pay for his legal expenses and other costs and look after him?

 

Additionally why didn't the Melbourne Football Club board do more to prevent Ron Barassi Jnr from leaving the club to go to Carlton in 1965?

Who were the board members and football department people? That were part of the club during that time in the 1960's and 1970's? Why were so many of them totally inept?

I would like to know why the board wasn't held accountable for their mistakes?

I also heard that Norm Smith attempted to join the Melbourne Football Club board in either 1967 or 1968 but failed to obtain enough votes. Is this true? If so, why didn't the Melbourne Football Club members back him?

Obviously these questions may open up some old wounds. But I want to get my head around what went wrong in those days.

I would appreciate the thoughts of those who have any knowledge of these times.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Supreme_Demon

[bush demon 2,040]

If you watch the '65 grand final on YouTube between StKilda and Essendon it is easy to see that the talented players were gravitating to other clubs. StKilda and Essendon were two teams that showed us up mid '65 when we were unbeaten. I think by this time the Barassi Smith ranting methodology was wearing off and we overplayed the 'if only' victim game. I also think loss of rich talent zones had a lot to do with it.

Edited May 17, 2020 by bush demon

[dieter 3,325]

12 minutes ago, bush demon said:

I think by this time the Barassi Smith ranting methodology was wearing off

Um, the Barassi Ranting Method took Carlton and North Melbourne to 2 Premierships...

[Sir Why You Little 37,036]

If only we knew??

[Sir Why You Little 37,036]

26 minutes ago, bush demon said:

If you watch the '65 grand final on YouTube between StKilda and Essendon it is easy to see that the talented players were gravitating to other clubs. StKilda and Essendon were two teams that showed us up mid '65 when we were unbeaten. I think by this time the Barassi Smith ranting methodology was wearing off and we overplayed the 'if only' victim game. I also think loss of rich talent zones had a lot to do with it.

The MFC dropped away as Television Coverage became “the new thing”

[rjay 24,927]

We were an established club that thought the good times would go on for ever.

Arrogance is a fatal disease.

Other clubs got the jump on us and we've never recovered.

Been playing catch up since then...

[Diamond_Jim 12,586]

There were lots of reasons but Richmond becoming a co tenant was definitely a factor.

You have to understand that for every teams followers their game at the MCG against the MFC was a must attend simply because of the luxury of a family day out being seated at a football game in comfort. By comparison the other suburban grounds were literal hellholes with few seats and standing room where going to the toilet was often done in a beer can or at a public toilet where the run off was... (well you can imagine).

When Richmond joined we lost that natural advantage and were no longer special.

[Sir Why You Little 37,036]

20 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

There were lots of reasons but Richmond becoming a co tenant was definitely a factor.

You have to understand that for every teams followers their game at the MCG against the MFC was a must attend simply because of the luxury of a family day out being seated at a football game in comfort. By comparison the other suburban grounds were literal hellholes with few seats and standing room where going to the toilet was often done in a beer can or at a public toilet where the run off was... (well you can imagine).

When Richmond joined we lost that natural advantage and were no longer special.

Richmond not only moved to the MCG in 1965, they got their [censored] together immediately. By 1967 they had won a Flag and had weekly exposure on the TV. 
We became the B Team very Quickly and have never fully shaken that stigma

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

52 minutes ago, rjay said:

We were an established club that thought the good times would go on for ever.

Arrogance is a fatal disease.

Other clubs got the jump on us and we've never recovered.

Been playing catch up since then...

Barass wanted us separated from the Mcc for a reason. 

Obviously we weren't getting funded well enough and our indoor training situation was pathetic let alone social situation.  Barass asked them for better rooms for gymnasium and other facilities, and we were roped of the centre-wicket area.

We wanted to be indeependent and make our own way but we were shunted to the Junction oval, for penance.

 

[Macca 16,969]

The laws of libel & slander would have been the reason why the club didn't back Smith when he called the umpire a cheat.

It was a silly thing for Norm to do anyway ... a man of his maturity reducing himself down to acting like a blinkered supporter.

And why would the Board members hand themselves a criminal record all because a coach has lost the plot.  Smith settled with the umpire (out of court) so there's your answer in a nutshell. 

Great coach all the same.

But the truth is the team was becoming weaker because of the zones and Smith (IMO) turned his attention to the lowest common denominator.  The umpires. 

We no longer had carte-blanche for the emerging talent (via the recruiting genius Jim Cardwell) and that continued on until drafting appeared.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Macca

[Little Goffy 14,543]

It has always been my impression that the Melbourne Football Club just never quite lifted the standards of professionalism, resources and organisation as other clubs did.  Not that we went backwards so much as everyone else was going forwards a little bit faster.

Eventually that led to a wider and wider gap, and the very fact of that gap made it harder and harder to motivate a whole club to unify their effort.  Complacency and 'traditionalist' culture, combined with chronic shortage of income, meant that any innovations (some of which were already a decade or more old at other clubs) were adopted piecemeal, tokenistically, and temporarily, rather than being permanently included in the way the club expected to operate.

An obvious psychological trap at the club is the pattern of 'we got there, everything is okay, time to relax.'  We reach a point of looking alright, then go no further.  In particularly wilting under the pressure when we discover that actually, no, they wont leave us alone now, we have to keep going every bloody week!

We've turned it around to some extent, but given that false dawns are our specialty, we are all watching and waiting.

[daisycutter 29,616]

we became the bastard step-child of the mcc

the mcg became a mill-stone around our collective necks whereas once it was our prime differentiator

[Sir Why You Little 37,036]

20 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

It has always been my impression that the Melbourne Football Club just never quite lifted the standards of professionalism, resources and organisation as other clubs did.  Not that we went backwards so much as everyone else was going forwards a little bit faster.

Eventually that led to a wider and wider gap, and the very fact of that gap made it harder and harder to motivate a whole club to unify their effort.  Complacency and 'traditionalist' culture, combined with chronic shortage of income, meant that any innovations (some of which were already a decade or more old at other clubs) were adopted piecemeal, tokenistically, and temporarily, rather than being permanently included in the way the club expected to operate.

An obvious psychological trap at the club is the pattern of 'we got there, everything is okay, time to relax.'  We reach a point of looking alright, then go no further.  In particularly wilting under the pressure when we discover that actually, no, they wont leave us alone now, we have to keep going every bloody week!

We've turned it around to some extent, but given that false dawns are our specialty, we are all watching and waiting.

The bleeding has been stopped at this stage. We haven’t turned anything around yet. 2019 showed us that. 
 

Lot’s of hard work still to come

[Hogan2014 390]

Club never evolved as comp become more professional.
Never established a home base for its supporters, just look @ Collingwood base which we were offered but rejected & It’s now 2020 & still no home base 

Continuous poor appointments to people both on & of the field , always band aide approaches with no strong long term strategic plans.

After the failed merger in 96 Hawks developed a plan with its members resulting in a new home base & 4 flags. Mfc  continued down the same path of just trying to survive & relied on a white knight Gutnick to save the club!

Continues poor recruiting with poor culture & development , just look @ all the early top 15 draft picks we took from 07-13 & see how many are on our list, let alone any Afl list 

 

[bush demon 2,040]

4 hours ago, dieter said:

Um, the Barassi Ranting Method took Carlton and North Melbourne to 2 Premierships...

And Norm Smith got  South into the finals in 1970 but he had to change clubs to do that.

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

1 hour ago, Hogan2014 said:

Club never evolved as comp become more professional.
Never established a home base for its supporters, just look @ Collingwood base which we were offered but rejected & It’s now 2020 & still no home base 

Continuous poor appointments to people both on & of the field , always band aide approaches with no strong long term strategic plans.

After the failed merger in 96 Hawks developed a plan with its members resulting in a new home base & 4 flags. Mfc  continued down the same path of just trying to survive & relied on a white knight Gutnick to save the club!

Continues poor recruiting with poor culture & development , just look @ all the early top 15 draft picks we took from 07-13 & see how many are on our list, let alone any Afl list 

 

Its a strange notion,  that directors should look further away from the Mcg for our PotOfGold,   whilst they sit in side the Holy Grail,  pontificating on the future of Mfc.?

Any-wonder nothing has changed,  because everyone is peering at the playing surface of the 'G',  instead of pondering our well-being outside the perimeter.

[Half forward flank 1,022]

It has indeed been a long road for those of us who stated supporting just as we went into decline in the mid sixties. Those years were really odd, we still had Premiership stars like Tassie, Barry Bourke and others but were in fact going backwards. The 70s saw other Clubs like Richmond hit the jackpot with a young Tommy Hafey, a hard nosed administration and some recruiting gems. Barass was working his magic at a reguvitated Carlton, who again had a hard nosed administration and a rich recruiting zone. meanwhile planning was underway at North with a great admisitration and recruiting department. Essendon and Collingwood remained strong while Hawthorn were still under John Keneddy with a strong admisitration and a following division of Scott, Tuck and Matthews. The 80s rolled on and it took our best coach in my time, John Northey to get things rolling. And thats what he did, he rolled the dice and created an attacking style of play which took one of the best sides ever in the Hawks to kill the dream. We would go on to make one more GF under Danahier but we never were a chance. I now hold my breath, as I am not close to the powers that be and am constantly bewildered why everyday supporters have had a better feel for the playing list than those running the show. Still, maybe this year we are as good a chance as anyone else.

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

3 hours ago, Macca said:

The laws of libel & slander would have been the reason why the club didn't back Smith when he called the umpire a cheat.

It was a silly thing for Norm to do anyway ... a man of his maturity reducing himself down to acting like a blinkered supporter.

And why would the Board members hand themselves a criminal record all because a coach has lost the plot.  Smith settled with the umpire (out of court) so there's your answer in a nutshell. 

Great coach all the same.

But the truth is the team was becoming weaker because of the zones and Smith (IMO) turned his attention to the lowest common denominator.  The umpires. 

We no longer had carte-blanche for the emerging talent (via the recruiting genius Jim Cardwell) and that continued on until drafting appeared.

Why was slander and libel a criminal act in 1965? Victoria has laws for defamation, a civil action, so not sure what you mean by criminal records being handed out. 

 

Can you elaborate? 

[praha 11,240]

It all went bad (and came good) at the worst times.

A down period was to be expected after our glory years. Every team has gone through it. Hardly surprising. Longer than usual, but news of our struggles during that period is hardly known (or cared about) outside of Victoria.

We bounce back in the late 80s and run into a brick wall powerhouse in the Hawks. We stay near the top for long enough and become complacent: at a time when football department spend was on the rise we stayed in amateur town, training at Junction Oval using Average Joes gym and recovery equipment. Whilst the rest of the league was becoming professional, we never quite transitioned until much later. We were in essence a team run like an amateaur football club until the late 90s (at the earliest).

We fall a bit, survive multiple merger attempts, and start a new era. BOOM. Another brick wall in the Essendon powerhouse. We stick with a crop of good but not great players, and the "boys club" is formed, or at least cemented in the culture. 

We crash and burn, and at the start of the social media era, where information and news spreads faster than the Road Runner, we are known as that team always at the bottom of the ladder. Melbourne's population booms, neutral  supporters latch onto your Hawthorns and Geelongs, and it's "uncool" to follow a team like Melbourne. Growth is difficult. EVERYONE knows how bad we are. There's no hiding from it.

Meanwhile, we continue to tread water to stay afloat, struggling to win games and get people to our games. Thus, slow growth at a time when even modestly successful clubs can pump millions into their departments.

We bounce back and have a strong season, only to crash down again due to shocking player management.

All is good though, we have an urgency to redeem ourselves. And then a pandemic happens, stifling any legitimate attempt to reboot and regain momentum. 

There's no definitive time when it went wrong. It's just in our DNA.

[Macca 16,969]

3 hours ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

Why was slander and libel a criminal act in 1965? Victoria has laws for defamation, a civil action, so not sure what you mean by criminal records being handed out. 

 

Can you elaborate? 

In a nutshell the board members wouldn't have wanted to stand by Smith (and they didn't) as they themselves would have then been directly associated with Smith's comment that umpire Don Blew was a cheat. 

What do you think they should have done?

Can you imagine any of the current board members standing by Goodwin if he made such a claim?

And whatever the laws of the land were at the time doesn't change the fact that Smith was out of line. 

As it stands,  he settled out of court so we could assume that the umpire was at least compensated in part. 

And by the way,  if you remove all prejudice,  you might see it my way.

Just for a heads-up,  I have never had a problem with any umpiring decision,  ever.  Hard to believe but it is true.  I don't view the sport as many others do.

For the most part,  we've been a poor outfit in my time following the Demons so a few umpiring decisions here and there means diddly-squat to me (in the whole scheme of things)

Edited May 17, 2020 by Macca

[Demonstone 22,519]

Sorry everybody, but I blame myself.  In the first seven years of my life, we won four premierships and were a powerhouse.

I then reached the age where it was necessary to pick a team and I went for the one with colours that I liked.  55 years later...

Conversely, my mate from school picked Hawthorn because of their colours (I know) and has since enjoyed twelve flags and he doesn't let me forget about it either the smug mongrel.

[Sir Why You Little 37,036]

Should have had a massive clean out (Clarko Style) after the 2004 Season, to be on top and then lose 5 Games should have told us the list was not up to it. Players should have been sold whilst they had value, but ND (Bless him) had his faves

 

[Macca 16,969]

And if Smith didn't call Don Blew a cheat the conversation we're having right now may not exist.

Smith almost certainly wouldn't have been sacked and who knows,  he might have been able to sort out how to produce talent out of our zones.

A sliding doors moment all revolving around one word - Cheat.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,053]

If you look at the history of the club, right from the beginning we've been slow to adapt and embrace new realities.  The MFC has had a history of relying on the prestige of being THE MFC, the FIRST club and assuming that players will just want to come here.  Back when the league first agreed that players could be paid "travel expenses" for coming to games, guess which club refused to do it?  Player payments.  Recruiting zones.  Paying players to move into different cities so they could be recruited by your club...  Melbourne have always been the team that missed the boat.  Then when they finally did try to do something a little bit dodgy to gain an advantage, they stuffed it up, failed to capitalise on the advantage they had worked for and then got caught out and fined half a million dollars. 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

19 minutes ago, Macca said:

And if Smith didn't call Don Blew a cheat the conversation we're having right now may not exist.

Smith almost certainly wouldn't have been sacked and who knows,  he might have been able to sort out how to produce talent out of our zones.

A sliding doors moment all revolving around one word - Cheat.

From my reading that was just the straw that broke the camels back. It seems there was a relationship breakdown between Smith and the board that would've blown up anyway.