37 minutes ago, Mach5 said:

You just gotta laugh sometimes.

The concept of a “clique” consisting of Mahoney, Goodwin & Viney is absurd - imagine criticising a footy dept for maintaining a close relationship and supporting one another!

Secondly, name another president that doesn’t have a healthy ego.

And finally, the exact opposite is largely the case. Previously past greats of the club have felt disconnected, and while it’s far from perfect, bridges are someway down the path to being mended.

@Demonland Why were my responses to this, none of which contained any kind of personal comments, deleted but this post remains?

12 minutes ago, Macca said:

Here's a quick story for you Gorg (and others)

I started supporting the club when I was 6 years old.  1965

For the next 22 years we never played in 1 finals series.  For the most part we were directionless and inept for that time period.  Never looked like it save for a fleeting moment in 1971 and the end of 1976.  28 years old and my team finally plays in a final (1987)

If I was ever going to quit it was then.

But it's my club.  And it's my club for life. 

I'm still here and there are many here who share almost the exact same story.  Nutbean,  Go the Biff and numerous others including those who I'm often in conflict with (Bub & Wyl) I share their frustration but often a club falls away because of the people within the club.  They are not the 'actual' club - they are mere custodians passing through.  We're here forever.

The cure for me is that we need a whole new bunch of personnel to be injected into the club.  The head coach needs wins early next year or he is gone.  And if Goodwin needs to be replaced there's a good chance we'll rally anyway.  So it's a win/win if things pan out that way

Mate,  you live miles away.  Many out that far just take out a country membership anyway. 

Just do what you can.

Tbh I hate the fact that the game I loved holds very little for me at the moment. I just don’t enjoy the games or the style of play. 

1 hour ago, Macca said:

I couldn't care less what you do

If you want to spit the dummy and quit then the club won't be losing much.

Cya

Pert will beg to differ.
He'll be one of thousands I say.
The club will take a huge financial hit for this seasons farce.
it's not like we have that many supporters to lose you know.

 

Edited August 18, 20195 yr by Fork 'em

1 minute ago, Gorgoroth said:

Tbh I hate the fact that the game I loved holds very little for me at the moment. I just don’t enjoy the games or the style of play. 

Well that's a whole other issue Gorg ... bring on the NFL I say!  Pack Pack Pack

The other thing is what do lapsed members do when we come good? (as early as next year?) Do they jump back on as fairweather supporters might? 

The very type of supporter that those who might feel inclined to criticise for being fairweather? ha ha

All in all,  you're better off renewing.  At least you can then always say that you stuck it out.  Different story for those who can't afford a membership. 

As bad as the year has been,  we've seen far worse.  The 2 years under Neeld/Craig were shocking.  And the first 2 years under Bailey were terrible.  I could name another 10 seasons where we were non-competitive.  Including RDB's first year (1981 - 1 win)

We probably would have won another 5 wins this year at least if we had some semblance of a forward line.  And that's the biggest woozy.  The MC went into the season with either a lot of fingers crossed or they overrated our forward line personnel.  Either way it's a massive fail.

People not renewing means lower membership which means less revenue.

Can someone tell me how this helps the club climb out of the hole it currently finds itself in?

If you think it's "sending a message", I'd be pretty confident the club knows just how bad the year has been and how rotten we all feel about it. 

I just can't see how penalising the club by not renewing is in any way helpful.  If anything, it's hurting the thing we love.

2 minutes ago, Fork 'em said:

Pert will beg to differ.
He'll be one of thousands I say.
The club will take a huge financial hit for this seasons farce.
it's not like we have that many supporters to lose you know.

What about our recent history of increased memberships despite having any number of pus/putrid seasons ('07,  '08,  '09,  '12,  '13,  '14)  When Jimmy Stynes talked of 40k we had our doubts.

We might be looking at a few thousand dropping off but if we rally after a positive off-season,  who knows?  It's often been said that Demon fans are the most cashed up and let's face it,  we can all afford to go to the snow every year on extended holidays (it's true)

We'll be right - the messiah is on the way anyway (pick #2)

This has been a really positive thread Ethan, way more than I thought it would be.

Can we just keep it civil.

At the end of the day, its your dollars coming out of your skyrocket. No one has the right to tell you what you to do with it - good or bad.

I live overseas, I've been buying my long distance membership every year since I've been here. I'll continue to do it if nothing else because I'm a gold member from consecutive years. But jeez this year has made it tough to cough up the dough.

8 hours ago, deebug said:

Yes of course i will, i love our club. 

I have made some great friends, who are like family to me. We have been members for over 20 years, and like all demon, members/supporters, we are, also gutted seeing our great club fall into a heap this year. 

I heard David Neitz on sen a few weeks ago, and he was saying how the 666 rule has hurt us this year, but then said it can be fixed. Also said we should have a near to full list who will be able to a full pre-season.

So have faith guys we can turn it around.

It's always something with Melbourne. 

And only Melbourne could be bad because of a rule.

1 hour ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

My estimate was that we’d lose about 10,000 members which is about 20%. 

You’d imagine we’d loose the 8k we gained this year plus a few extras so I think your 10k would be pretty close

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

@Demonland Why were my responses to this, none of which contained any kind of personal comments, deleted but this post remains?

 

To be fair, responses from both of us have been deleted and probably due to the healthy amount of member measuring involved? Maybe we should suck it up & move on?

10 minutes ago, —coach— said:

You’d imagine we’d loose the 8k we gained this year plus a few extras so I think your 10k would be pretty close

Yep that was basically how I came to that amount. Between 15-20% which is reflected in the poll. 

9 minutes ago, Mach5 said:

To be fair, responses from both of us have been deleted and probably due to the healthy amount of member measuring involved? Maybe we should suck it up & move on?

Yeah, fair point mate, was more just checking so I know where the line is, don't want to be crossing it without realizing it.

What was your final measurement by the way? ?

43 minutes ago, demonstone said:

People not renewing means lower membership which means less revenue.

Can someone tell me how this helps the club climb out of the hole it currently finds itself in?

If you think it's "sending a message", I'd be pretty confident the club knows just how bad the year has been and how rotten we all feel about it. 

I just can't see how penalising the club by not renewing is in any way helpful.  If anything, it's hurting the thing we love.

 

As previously stated,  it's best to view the club as if it were your own - and in a way, it is.  Once you're a member you are a part of the club.  And if a member has concerns,  there are avenues to voice those concerns. 

And the club does listen to it's members by default.  When everything went pear-shaped in 2012/13 the club made some massive changes.  We embarked on a clean-out and we therefore got better and improved (albeit slowly)

We are going to see a lot of changes in the off-season.  And to me that will be a sign for members to renew.  So rather than quit,  us members can help the club rally.  It is after all,  our club. 

With a new set of assistants,  Goodwin comes right under the microscope.  But so does everyone else too.  Anyone thinking that it's not also about the player personnel is not evaluating things properly.  We need a big injection of talent just to become a finals contender again.  As for being a flag contender,  we're a ways off. 

The list contains about 8 good to very good players when all those players are fully fit - after that we have 5 or 6 who play well periodically and then it falls away.  You don't win flags with those levels of talent.  But add in 2 or 3 top players and few reasonable types and we're a finals contender again.

So I say renew those memberships.  All is not lost. 

 

11 minutes ago, Macca said:

 

As previously stated,  it's best to view the club as if it were your own - and in a way, it is.  Once you're a member you are a part of the club.  And if a member has concerns,  there are avenues to voice those concerns. 

And the club does listen to it's members by default.  When everything went pear-shaped in 2012/13 the club made some massive changes.  We embarked on a clean-out and we therefore got better and improved (albeit slowly)

We are going to see a lot of changes in the off-season.  And to me that will be a sign for members to renew.  So rather than quit,  us members can help the club rally.  It is after all,  our club. 

With a new set of assistants,  Goodwin comes right under the microscope.  But so does everyone else too.  Anyone thinking that it's not also about the player personnel is not evaluating things properly.  We need a big injection of talent just to become a finals contender again.  As for being a flag contender,  we're a ways off. 

The list contains about 8 good to very good players when all those players are fully fit - after that we have 5 or 6 who play well periodically and then it falls away.  You don't win flags with those levels of talent.  But add in 2 or 3 top players and few reasonable types and we're a finals contender again.

So I say renew those memberships.  All is not lost. 

 

I disagree wholeheartedly but that's just me 

2 minutes ago, Panamapapers said:

I disagree wholeheartedly but that's just me 

We should have a disagree icon.  They'd have to set a limit of 100 per day with me though. I'd go to town if let loose.

Anyway,  I concur.  I disagree wholeheartedly but that's just me.

1 hour ago, demonstone said:

People not renewing means lower membership which means less revenue.

Can someone tell me how this helps the club climb out of the hole it currently finds itself in?

If you think it's "sending a message", I'd be pretty confident the club knows just how bad the year has been and how rotten we all feel about it. 

I just can't see how penalising the club by not renewing is in any way helpful.  If anything, it's hurting the thing we love.

Here is the "Doom Loop" as Brendan Gale envisioned when he joined the Tigers in 2011.

The "doom loop" is actually a common concept in the corporate world, albeit used sparingly because people are too scared or fearful of negativity and realism. This fear leads to unrealistic expectations and targets, because optimism leads to overly optimistic goals and targets. 

Essentially and simply the "loop" suggests that any negative impact both precedes and proceeds another impact, eventually forming a loop. 

So, negative on field performance impacts attendance, membership, and brand power, which impacts sponsorship, which impacts revenue, which impacts spending power, which impacts resources, which impacts on field performance, which impacts.. and round and round. 

What I am getting at is that, regardless as to whether or not you or I purchase memberships, there is an impact caused by and causing towards poor on field performance. Rather than saying, "We need your support", the club should be asking, "Why don't we have their support". We know that attendance the last few weeks has been poor and will impact the bottom line. Round and round and it's a vicious cycle...but you can break it.

Another thread a few weeks ago spoke about "brand" and "identity" and some here ridiculed the concept. 

"Just play good footy!" they cried.

But it is more than that. If the environment lacks a vision, coherence, realism, and accountability, eventually it all tumbles. 

Pert, Goodwin, Mahoney and co have a lot of work to do. Previously they have ignored the Doom Loop and instead painted a rosy picture, which some here have gobbled up like turkeys at feeding time.

Goodwin now appears to have reached breaking point and sees the loop formed. He is angry and frustrated at both the process and himself: this is the first step towards redemption. He has let those around him down.

No more pointing the fingers at each other, or at members that don't renew or don't show up. Instead look at the start of the loop and ask why it got to where it is. 

I'm more confident now that we can turn it around because Goodwin has admitted they [censored] up -- thus being "negative" -- rather than before when we were saying it was an anaomoly, all is well, we will bounce back, etc etc.

How will you bounce back?

What went wrong?

What is the impact?

How do you quantify the impact?

For the first time ever the club has actually come out and said, "We stuffed up". And now the Doom Loop is vulnerable. But it became full circle when we had Barlett saying the year was an anaomoly with absolutely no context, solution, or rational reasoning.

so if someone doesn't want to renew, my response is, "Okay, we are here: how did we arrive?" 

Edited August 18, 20195 yr by praha

1 hour ago, Macca said:

Well that's a whole other issue Gorg ... bring on the NFL I say!  Pack Pack Pack

The other thing is what do lapsed members do when we come good? (as early as next year?) Do they jump back on as fairweather supporters might? 

The very type of supporter that those who might feel inclined to criticise for being fairweather? ha ha

All in all,  you're better off renewing.  At least you can then always say that you stuck it out.  Different story for those who can't afford a membership. 

As bad as the year has been,  we've seen far worse.  The 2 years under Neeld/Craig were shocking.  And the first 2 years under Bailey were terrible.  I could name another 10 seasons where we were non-competitive.  Including RDB's first year (1981 - 1 win)

We probably would have won another 5 wins this year at least if we had some semblance of a forward line.  And that's the biggest woozy.  The MC went into the season with either a lot of fingers crossed or they overrated our forward line personnel.  Either way it's a massive fail.

It's a good point re potential to have won another 5 games with a functional forward line. As well as poor fitness and preparation we also lacked key players capable of getting us across the line in close games against the likes of Port Adelaide, Adelaide, WCE x 2, Doggies and St Kilda (second time we played them). 

WCE finished in the bottom 6 on 9 wins and a % of 95% in 2013 which featured a two win Melbourne, GWS and Gold Coast despite having a mature list. They featured deep in September both before and after having such a poor season. While this season has been a disaster in comparison to WCE in 2013 it's not much worse. 

16 minutes ago, Macca said:

We should have a disagree icon.  They'd have to set a limit of 100 per day with me though. I'd go to town if let loose.

Anyway,  I concur.  I disagree wholeheartedly but that's just me.

At least we can agree on something lol

25 minutes ago, praha said:

Here is the "Doom Loop" as Brendan Gale envisioned when he joined the Tigers in 2011.

Sensational post mate. I usually pull the TL:DR with lengthy posts here but this one was insightful, sensible and contained great examples. Thanks very much for putting the work in.

15 minutes ago, chookrat said:

It's a good point re potential to have won another 5 games with a functional forward line. As well as poor fitness and preparation we also lacked key players capable of getting us across the line in close games against the likes of Port Adelaide, Adelaide, WCE x 2, Doggies and St Kilda (second time we played them). 

WCE finished in the bottom 6 on 9 wins and a % of 95% in 2013 which featured a two win Melbourne, GWS and Gold Coast despite having a mature list. They featured deep in September both before and after having such a poor season. While this season has been a disaster in comparison to WCE in 2013 it's not much worse. 

There have been many years following this team where I thought we were 5 years off playing finals.  At least.  3 or 4 good players and that was it. 

But if we could add in 2 top inside/outside midfielders along with 2 marking forwards who can kick straight then we'd be a definite finals contender again.

I rang a few mates early this year and stated that our forward line was cactus. The signs were there from the get-go but many here were pointing the finger at the A-End of the problem (backline and backline personnel)

Oscar,  Frost and the like were never really the problem because May & Lever were returning.  But we had no one 'Returning' to the forward line. 

Pick 2 will be a big prospect midfielder from the draft but we're going to have to be super-creative with the recruitment of forwards. 

I am not as big on small forwards as I believe they often run on the shirt-tails of proper key forwards.

We can get a lot better but we're going to have to work really hard to get what we need chookrat.

Yes I will be renewing my Legends Membership because I love the club and there is a strong emotional attachment as well. However I won't be attending the best and fairest next month. It has been a very difficult year for the club. 

I will but will wait until the season is under the way. 

If I hear reports during preseason that they are tearing the track up I will spew up. 

Nothing but actions will be good enough next season. No more talk or excuses. 

4 hours ago, Macca said:

We need better people in the club (players as well) ... those who are there are mere custodians.  Poorly performed people rarely last very long so others come in and try their best.

I view the club as I view the clubs that I played for - I'm there for life.  Through thick & thin. Never quit.

It's your club,  support it.  If you want to criticise those within the club,  go right ahead.  But don't punish your own club. 

Smith,  Barassi,  Flower,  Neitz and numerous others never gave in,  why should you?

Sorry Macca but that is not entirely historically accurate.

9 minutes ago, DemonOX said:

I will but will wait until the season is under the way. 

If I hear reports during preseason that they are tearing the track up I will spew up. 

Nothing but actions will be good enough next season. No more talk or excuses. 

I'm the same. Cancelling auto renew and will expect dramatic improvement before signing up for 2020.

Our list is not sensational but neither is the lions