This is a bit of an over reaction. The competition is very even this year and we were always on the back foot. Gutting the list shows no faith in any of the players. Brayshaw finished top 5 in the Brownlow last year. Sure, he’s underperformed this year, but you look to trade stars in and not trade them out. This list, once healthy, can win a premiership. There’s at least 8 lists in the league that could win the premiership. I feel we are trying to reinvent the wheel in this forum sometimes, or in NFL terms trying for a Hail Mary when sometimes the best thing to do is take a knee. Next year will be different. This year has been a write off since the pre-season surgeries. 

On 6/30/2019 at 6:27 PM, ding said:

No, this list wont be winning us a premiership, but the problem starts in the coaching box. Fix that first before even thinking about rebuilding the list.

Roos was a leader of men and he gave us hope.

Goodwin sprouts corporate BS after every loss ( "Connections" etc etc) and has lost all of the momentum we gained from the last couple of years of Roos' tenure.

Get rid of him before the club is forced into yet another list rebuid. The boys might love him, but he is game day poison.

 

 

Yes, I’m tired of the BS coachspeak after every game.

51 minutes ago, demonchris said:

This is a bit of an over reaction. The competition is very even this year and we were always on the back foot. Gutting the list shows no faith in any of the players. Brayshaw finished top 5 in the Brownlow last year. Sure, he’s underperformed this year, but you look to trade stars in and not trade them out. This list, once healthy, can win a premiership. There’s at least 8 lists in the league that could win the premiership. I feel we are trying to reinvent the wheel in this forum sometimes, or in NFL terms trying for a Hail Mary when sometimes the best thing to do is take a knee. Next year will be different. This year has been a write off since the pre-season surgeries. 

We didn’t beat many teams in the top eight last year, we had an easy draw and we won a couple of finals against teams on the back foot. We had beaten WC in the WC and then lost our mojo in the rematch. We haven’t got it back. And footy isn’t fun this year. It’s [censored]. This leads to losing and losing and losing.

1 hour ago, Skin Deeamond said:

We didn’t beat many teams in the top eight last year, we had an easy draw and we won a couple of finals against teams on the back foot. We had beaten WC in the WC and then lost our mojo in the rematch. We haven’t got it back. And footy isn’t fun this year. It’s [censored]. This leads to losing and losing and losing.

We beat GWS, Geelong, Hawthorn and West Coast who made the 8 last year.

Operations, Injuries and many players not having good pre seasons make a huge difference. 

Brisbane had two players out of their total list unavailable for selection on the weekend. Remove five players from their team and see how much it impacts them.

Yes, we’ve had a really bad season, players injured, no confidence, and even recruits injured. 

Most likely we end up bottom 4, we get a good draft pick, probably capable of playing firsts next year, get any operations out of the way early, pre season for team starts early, we get a good draw next year. Pick up someone with speed and someone who can crumb in the forward line, and 2020 we’re back in business.

2014-18 we improved each year, this ones a downer, but we can be in a position to go for top 4 in 2020.

On 6/30/2019 at 7:15 PM, DeeSpencer said:

Geelong traded out (pretty much delisted) Menzel.

Bought in:
Rohan - cheap trade
Dahlhaus - free agent
Fist round draft pick Jordan Clark
VFL player upgrade - Tom Atkins
Previour pick - Gryan Miers
Ablett forward

And had a whole new forward line.

We can make maybe 1 subtraction, 3 or 4 additions to beef up the forward line, get some training time and quality together in the midfield get the backline healthy and things can change very quickly.

this is exactly what we need to do DeeSpencer , you are so on the money here 

look what geelong bought in speed, small forwards, goal kickers

lets just say we draft a rozzee, stephenson type with our first pick

a willie rioli or liam ryan type with our second or third

bring in a free agent like a Jamie Elliot, coniglio we wish

trade in some leg speed, outside types  like Langdon , tippa, 

all of a sudden we are quicker, less predictable, have some xfactor, and different ways to score GOALS

a jeff farmer type player would be perfect 

 

Edited July 2, 20196 yr by Paulo

On 7/2/2019 at 5:58 AM, praha said:

You mention Richmond as a counter whilst also mentioning three straight finals appearances. Wins are irrelevant. They played finals. And they also had a fairly major list turnover at season's end. So you agree a rebuild is necessary?

"Wins are irrelevant. They played in finals". What does that even mean?

You argued that we need to rebuild because we're six years into the current rebuild and three years into Goodwin's tenure. I countered by noting that Richmond finished bottom 6 with an 8-14 record seven years into Hardwick's tenure.

Richmond had qualified for three finals series but failed to win any. They had achieved no more than we did in winning two finals last year.

As to their list turnover, they traded out Deledio and moved on a bunch of NQRs. They then brought in Prestia, Nankervis and Caddy, then went to the draft (but took no first round pick).

I wouldn't call that a major list rebuild. But there should be a lesson there for us. Target the right players who either want out (Prestia), don't fit (Caddy) or can't get a game (Nankervis) at their club and can fill a void at our club (e.g. for us, find some outside run, and a small forward). 

So no, I don't agree a rebuild is necessary. 

13 hours ago, Paulo said:

this is exactly what we need to do DeeSpencer , you are so on the money here 

look what geelong bought in speed, small forwards, goal kickers

lets just say we draft a rozzee, stephenson type with our first pick

a willie rioli or liam ryan type with our second or third

bring in a free agent like a Jamie Elliot, coniglio we wish

trade in some leg speed, outside types  like Langdon , tippa, 

all of a sudden we are quicker, less predictable, have some xfactor, and different ways to score GOALS

a jeff farmer type player would be perfect 

 

Yeah lets bring in an already injury prone player to add to our list of players we have going.

??‍♂️

27 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

"Wins are irrelevant. They played in finals". What does that even mean?

You argued that we need to rebuild because we're six years into the current rebuild and three years into Goodwin's tenure. I countered by noting that Richmond finished bottom 6 with an 8-14 record seven years into Hardwick's tenure.

Richmond had qualified for three finals series but failed to win any. They had achieved no more than we did in winning two finals last year.

As to their list turnover, they traded out Deledio and moved on a bunch of NQRs. They then brought in Prestia, Nankervis and Caddy, then went to the draft (but took no first round pick).

I wouldn't call that a major list rebuild. But there should be a lesson there for us. Target the right players who either want out (Prestia), don't fit (Caddy) or can't get a game (Nankervis) at their club and can fill a void at our club (e.g. for us, find some outside run, and a small forward). 

So no, I don't agree a rebuild is necessary. 

But would you agree that we'll make 10 or so changes to the list?  List the last 10-12 players on the list (in terms of value) and ask yourself whether you'd miss any of them if they were gone. 

I also reckon the club might trade out a valuable commodity or 2.  Might.  Sometimes you have to make changes and difficult decisions to get better.

So if that happens the changes could be dubbed a rebuild of sorts.  We need pace and an injection of skilled players - it is a glaring weakness. 

We quite obviously don't need a total rebuild like we did from '07 through to '15 but we're a long way off being a premiership contender.

If it was me I wouldn't trade Petracca,  Brayshaw or the like but it wouldn't surprise me greatly if tough decisions are made.

17 hours ago, Big Carl said:

Yes, I’m tired of the BS coachspeak after every game.

So that's three of us?

31 minutes ago, Macca said:

But would you agree that we'll make 10 or so changes to the list?  List the last 10-12 players on the list (in terms of value) and ask yourself whether you'd miss any of them if they were gone. 

I also reckon the club might trade out a valuable commodity or 2.  Might.  Sometimes you have to make changes and difficult decisions to get better.

So if that happens the changes could be dubbed a rebuild of sorts.  We need pace and an injection of skilled players - it is a glaring weakness. 

We quite obviously don't need a total rebuild like we did from '07 through to '15 but we're a long way off being a premiership contender.

If it was me I wouldn't trade Petracca,  Brayshaw or the like but it wouldn't surprise me greatly if tough decisions are made.

If you mean delisting/trading 10-12 current players, no I don't agree.

I think we can improve the team for 2020 by delisting/trading half that (e.g. Maynard, Stretch, J Wagner, Lewis, JKH).

Maybe part of this is down to the semantics over the meaning of the word "rebuild". IMO there is no such thing as a "total rebuild" or a "partial rebuild". We're either starting again (which is a rebuild) or we're making changes to a list (which is what Richmond did in 2016, also what Geelong did last year, and what most sides who are thereabouts but not in premiership contention do). But maybe that's just me and for others the word "rebuild" has different meaning(s).

7 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

If you mean delisting/trading 10-12 current players, no I don't agree.

I think we can improve the team for 2020 by delisting/trading half that (e.g. Maynard, Stretch, J Wagner, Lewis, JKH).

Maybe part of this is down to the semantics over the meaning of the word "rebuild". IMO there is no such thing as a "total rebuild" or a "partial rebuild". We're either starting again (which is a rebuild) or we're making changes to a list (which is what Richmond did in 2016, also what Geelong did last year, and what most sides who are thereabouts but not in premiership contention do). But maybe that's just me and for others the word "rebuild" has different meaning(s).

If we're not aggressive with regards to trading out a decent player or 2 (commodity) then 7 - 9 changes is my guess.

If we do trade aggressively then the number of changes to the list might exceed 10.  A lot will depend on how the club sees itself.  As always,  we are mere onlookers.

Whatever we call all that doesn't really matter ... if we were a complete basket-case then a 'total rebuild' might be an apt phrase.

Edited July 3, 20196 yr by Macca

1 hour ago, titan_uranus said:

"Wins are irrelevant. They played in finals". What does that even mean?

You argued that we need to rebuild because we're six years into the current rebuild and three years into Goodwin's tenure. I countered by noting that Richmond finished bottom 6 with an 8-14 record seven years into Hardwick's tenure.

Richmond had qualified for three finals series but failed to win any. They had achieved no more than we did in winning two finals last year.

As to their list turnover, they traded out Deledio and moved on a bunch of NQRs. They then brought in Prestia, Nankervis and Caddy, then went to the draft (but took no first round pick).

I wouldn't call that a major list rebuild. But there should be a lesson there for us. Target the right players who either want out (Prestia), don't fit (Caddy) or can't get a game (Nankervis) at their club and can fill a void at our club (e.g. for us, find some outside run, and a small forward). 

So no, I don't agree a rebuild is necessary. 

It means they played well enough consistently enough over three years to play finals. We did it once and crashed again.

Richmond rebuilt their midfield and forward line by bringing in the likes of Prestia and Caddy and co. It was a mini rebuild. They traded out experience to rebuild their core by bringing in strong role players. They completely changed their approach to their list.

1 hour ago, praha said:

It means they played well enough consistently enough over three years to play finals. We did it once and crashed again.

Richmond rebuilt their midfield and forward line by bringing in the likes of Prestia and Caddy and co. It was a mini rebuild. They traded out experience to rebuild their core by bringing in strong role players. They completely changed their approach to their list.

You spent all of 2017, and probably more, talking about "turning a corner".

If we had made finals for three years but failed to win one, you'd have gone on and on about how we'd "failed to turn a corner". But when another club does it, it's a significant achievement. 

They traded out one player of note (Deledio) and brought in three key players from other clubs (Caddy, Prestia, Nankervis). Then they went to the draft.

That is not a rebuild. That is making strategic changes to improve a list.

Saying "they completely changed their approach to their list" is ridiculous. They did what any club which had made finals for three years but then flopped for one year would do. They made strategic changes to their list, designed to improve them in the areas that 2016 had exposed as weaknesses.

That is (amongst other things) exactly what we need to do, but it is not a rebuild.

2 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

You spent all of 2017, and probably more, talking about "turning a corner".

If we had made finals for three years but failed to win one, you'd have gone on and on about how we'd "failed to turn a corner". But when another club does it, it's a significant achievement. 

They traded out one player of note (Deledio) and brought in three key players from other clubs (Caddy, Prestia, Nankervis). Then they went to the draft.

That is not a rebuild. That is making strategic changes to improve a list.

Saying "they completely changed their approach to their list" is ridiculous. They did what any club which had made finals for three years but then flopped for one year would do. They made strategic changes to their list, designed to improve them in the areas that 2016 had exposed as weaknesses.

That is (amongst other things) exactly what we need to do, but it is not a rebuild.

I reckon you are on the money. I see we have added Baker, Lockhart, May to our best 22/25 this year so far, am I missing one, we need another three or four new players next year toto be in that grouping, 22-25 to be in contention for finals, player wise. At least two of those new players need to be established players.

2 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Yeah lets bring in an already injury prone player to add to our list of players we have going.

??‍♂️

We have a huge injury list but I'm not sure we have a huge list of injury prone players. I'd put Vanders, KK and even Joel Smith in that category, but a lot of teams have carried far more than that including the Pies with Reid, Elliott, Wells, Darcy Moore, Scharenberg etc.

Elliott's a free agent and the level of talent that I'd fully support rolling the dice for at the right price. If he's available for 2 years at 300k/year you'd do it straight away, if it's 4 years at 600k pa you'd say no thanks. Depending on what happens between now and the end of the year I'd imagine his value is somewhere between those ranges.

Dont need a rebuild... just a game plan that works.

57 minutes ago, Ugottobekidding said:

Dont need a rebuild... just a game plan that works.

+ players with foot skills 

the notion of having a list changeover of 10-12 list changes at the end of the season simply doesn't compute with the reality that that doesn't happen very often, i wouldn't have thought

that'd be a quarter of list turnover in a season; strikes me as something that would be pretty unusual 

still maintain we need a tinker not a rebuild

i'm selling myself into the idea of toby mclean who is currently borderline excess requirements at the dogs

if we could add:

• adam tomlinson (free agent, the rumours are all saints but i don't know why we're not keen)
• ed langdon (our 2018 second to freo)
• toby mclean (our 2019 second to footscray)
• ben ronke (our 2019 third to swans)

and that's before even doing any trading

our only players with genuine high level currency are probably:

• may
• salem
• harmes
• petracca
• viney
• brayshaw
• gawn
• oliver
• t mac

i think it's pretty unlikely that a player like o mac or anb or hibberd would be worth more than a third round pick, at best, and tbh the likes of hunt and fritsch are borderline 'valuable' to opposing teams too; they're the sort of players you try and get a second round pick for, like a melksham or a hibberd when we picked them up - you know that they can play afl-level football, but they've got 'spots' on them

i still think brayshaw or petracca are the players that have the most 'value' as there's no way imo that yr trading salem, harmes, viney, gawn, oliver of the players in that group; the only reason lever isn't in there is because of the obvious injury concern, so he wouldn't command high level trade value

brayshaw is the one for mine who would be on the chopping block

no idea what we could get for him, but you'd probably want a first round pick plus...something (another player? another pick?)

i don't mind the idea of sending him to freo to play with his brother; i'll have their 2019 first and ed langdon for brayshaw and...something

2020:
B: Jetta - May - Lever
HB: Jones - Frost - Hibberd
? Salem - Harmes - Langdon
HF: Petracca - T Mac - McLean
F: Melksham - Weideman - Ronke
Foll: Gawn - Oliver - Viney
I/c: Hunt - Hore - Lockhart - Tomlinson
Emerg: KK - AVB - our 2019 first - freo's 2019 first

i have zero faith that avb or kk will ever become viable afl-level players for us, however i'd have both of them at their best as part of a best possible 25-man squad in this scenario

Edited July 3, 20196 yr by whatwhatsaywhat
forgot hore

8 hours ago, whatwhatsaywhat said:

.........

• ed langdon (our 2018 second to freo)
• toby mclean (our 2019 second to footscray)
• ben ronke (our 2019 third to swans)

.........

Ed Langdon for last years second round pick, get it done!

10 minutes ago, ManDee said:

Ed Langdon for last years second round pick, get it done!

ugh, meant 2019 second for him, 2020 second for mclean / 2020 third for ronke

i wish we could go back to 2018 when we played finals again...sigh........

15 hours ago, Ugottobekidding said:

Dont need a rebuild... just a game plan that works.

I tend to agree with this. Also we have had a mini rebuild during season by being forced to play a few youngsters and others that may well have played all season at Casey

Bump. Our depth is deplorable, KK, ANB, Dunkley, Wagner’s, Spargo, Keilty list goes on of players on our list who are not AFL standard. We have no wingmen on our list, no small forwards, no outside mids with skills. We need a complete shake up.

Folks...we need to rebuild the Box first...our FD is woeful

Get some people who can teach and implement a real game of footy and all will follow..Our list isnt THAT bad...our FD is

53 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Folks...we need to rebuild the Box first...our FD is woeful

Get some people who can teach and implement a real game of footy and all will follow..Our list isnt THAT bad...our FD is

maybe. on the flipside we made a prelim last year. so either our list over performed or our FD and coaching team over performed. if the latter then Goodwin should and probably is under internal pressure. If the former then a rebuild is necessary. 

Some here seem to think nothing is wrong: we don't need a rebuild nor is anything wrong in the coaches box. 

Mind you we are staring down the barrel of finishing 17th. Five years after we last finished equal 18th in 2014, Roos' first year. 

There are a lot of perpetual negativity nancies on this forum. But many of them are right. Good clubs have the occasional down year. Poor clubs flat out bottom out. 

Nothing has changed. Consider our list turnover in coming years:

Lewis

Jones

ANB

Hibberd

Jetta

OMac

JKH

Garlett

AVB

Hannan

Potentially Brayshaw

Either retired, traded, or delisted. Or on the decline (Jetta and Hibberd).

We have very little depth upside. Dunkley, Lockhart, Petty have potential. But they so depressingly remind me of fillers from the Roos years.

I can't fathom how anyone doesn't think we need a genuine rebuild and restructuring. It's like it's a dirty word.

We need to be quick and harsh. Otherwise we're going to end up back where we were in 2012.

Make a decision on Jones. Choose between Viney or Brayshaw. Now is the time.

 

Edited July 14, 20196 yr by praha

We will likely finish in 16th where it all begun under Roos. That is like a business having the same sales figures as 6 years ago. Some here though continue to say, she will be right, it is just a flesh wound and will clear up over summer.