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We are due for a Rebuild.



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1 minute ago, Matsuo Basho said:

We could debate this back and forth forever. The key point is that we did not have to pay Adelaide’s ambit asking price for Lever because we had the whip hand in negotiations. He was out of contract! To cave in on day two of trade week the way we did was an absolute disgrace. Weak, overly generous, amateur hour trading.

Played for the suckers we are.

I agree and I argued that at the time. But the Shiel and Wingard deals dragged on and they eventually coughed up. Pick 10 was never going to be enough. Teams miss with top 10 selections all the time. To just hand over 10 for a very good player wasn't right. It was always going to be 10 and something. In the end it was 10 and a trade back from 19 to 35 a year earlier. That wasn't really a list altering move.

Our biggest list failings right now are:
1. Failing to recruit good outside mids.

I like Baker and Fritsch, but it's too much too soon for them right now. Vanders is injured. KK is injured/no good. Corey Wagner is ordinary. JKH injured and not much chop.

2. Failing to recruit good small/medium forwards:

Spargo is having 2nd year blues, he's not great but might not be terrible, certainly wasn't last year. Hannan injured and recently back. JKH as above. Garlett gone. Dion Johnstone a failure. Bedford/Chandler very young. Corey Wagner see above. Hunt just ok. Joel Smith injured. ANB yuck. Lockhart promising but early days.

I expect we'll make some moves to get improvement there. I don't expect huge drastic changes in the other positions.

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Lol massive clean out. Where are these amazing depth players who would be helping us? Hogan went out for May in. Kent went ok at the Saints but is now injured. Tyson - couldn't get a gam

We dont need a rebuild. We need to add quality and experience onto our list.  Brisbane showed this year that with good trading it can work if you bring in the right quality in. They added Neale a

Trelaor, Shiel, Wingard. Thanks for playing.

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24 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Wingard and future 3rd for Burton (pick 19 - first rounder), pick 15, pick 35 and a future 4th.

That's clearly more than the Lever deal which was picks 10 and 19 for Lever and 35. I didn't love the Lever trade and wanted less on the downgrade to pick 35 but winning plenty of games last year and making it pick 19 made it a good deal. Good recruiters - which is what you want the club to have - should be able to find similar hit rates at 19 or 35 and Lever for 10 is a steal.

Lever is meant to be an elite intercept marking defender, a player just as valuable as a gun midfielder. If you think Sicily or Darcy Moore aren't as valuable as a gun midfielder then you haven't been watching many games recently. Yet alone the dream of what Lever could become if developed well - a McGovern level force that teams have to tag. 

Shiel and Treloar both have breakaway pace but absolutely butcher the ball. They are players a good midfield team can counter. 

Wingard would rather play playstation than AFL football. 

We are due for a rebuild: Of our fitness department and assistant coaches, not of trading out a bunch of players.

Those 2 first rounders ended up being Lachie O'Brien and Liam Stocker.

Lever > O'Brien/Stocker

Some will argue otherwise, of course.

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Let’s be honest. It is likely we will finish bottom 2. So we will be able to bring in Anderson.

Trade in our 2020 pick for another top 10 pick, look to draft a Young or even a Gould with it.

Trade out our 2nd rounder for Langdon and a 4th rounder. 

Package our 2 3rd rounders for a 2nd rounder.

Trade out a Bradshaw, Viney or track for a late 1st rounder (package with change if needed), on forward that for a Himmelberg or Finlayson.

In: Anderson, Young, Himmelberg, Langdon 2nd rounder, 4th rounder

Out: 2019 1st pick, 2020 1st pick, 2 3rd rounders, one of Brayshaw/Viney or Track.

P

Disclaimer: People are going to try to poke holes in this and there probably are some however this is more to demonstrate the type of aggressive off-season we need to have to get back on track.

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45 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

We could debate this back and forth forever. The key point is that we did not have to pay Adelaide’s ambit asking price for Lever because we had the whip hand in negotiations. He was out of contract! To cave in on day two of trade week the way we did was an absolute disgrace. Weak, overly generous, amateur hour trading.

Played for the suckers we are.

As we have ALWAYS DONE!

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1 hour ago, Moonshadow said:

So you want us to use picks no 6, 5 and 1 in this year's draft? Brilliant!

I'll go one better. Lets use picks 1-10.

Small problem: how do we get them?

1967 rang, they want their LSD back.

You’re totally missing his point which was that he simply named some first year draft picks that haven’t taken 4 years to develop & contribute. 

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I can think of three more important things than a list rebuild that we need to do going into 2020:

  1. Change/tweak the gameplan - less playing on, fewer handpasses, more kick-mark, feeding into better connection between the midfielders and forwards
  2. Fitness - full overhaul needed here. Too many players stuck in rehab too long, too many injuries, not enough two-way running, too many players failing to develop physically
  3. Leadership - Viney/Jones need to be removed from captaincy and it needs to be given to Gawn. 

We need to make some list changes too of course, but we don't need the drastic changes that some on here suggest.

I don't agree that we stand to benefit by trading out someone like Brayshaw or Petracca. We'll get a top 5 pick and a second rounder in the 20-25 range. Do our homework, take those to the draft, and bring in two quality top-25 draft picks. 

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2 hours ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Yes. Even worse is his strike rate beyond the first round. It's just terrible. Charlie Spargo? FMD. In what universe does a recruiter believe he'll become an AFL player. 

Weideman over Curnow was the last straw for me. I mean an effing disgrace. They guy should be cleaning out his desk tomorrow morning. Had a gutful of the incompetence.

 

Spargo can't get a kick at Casey. Ridiculous that an AFL recruiter would spend a second round pick on a 172cm bloke who can't compete. Taylor has a lot to answer for.

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4 hours ago, olisik said:

Our midfield, wings and Forward line are not AFL standard. We can’t hit handpasses, our mids don’t defend, our key forwards don’t even take shots at goals when inside 50. 

We need to look to trade out some players to get ourself back into the draft. For the right offer I feel OMac, Hunt, Viney, Brayshaw, Trac, Tmac and Weeds should be in consideration to help us reset our list and team balance and fill these gaps.

We arnt going to get close to a premiership with this list

No chance of winning a flag with this list. Can’t believe we have had the 2nd most inside 50s this year. The entries have been deplorable, in fact the skill level overall is diabolical. 

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6 minutes ago, Nelo said:

No chance of winning a flag with this list. Can’t believe we have had the 2nd most inside 50s this year. The entries have been deplorable, in fact the skill level overall is diabolical. 

Eyebrows were raised when Sparrow was picked so early in last years draft. Especially since we traded up for that specific pick, only to take a player who would’ve gone later anyway...

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3 hours ago, olisik said:

Jayden Stephenson, Connor Rozee and Sam Walsh say hi. Plenty of recent players who have been drafted who eclipse our players. 

Carlton's list of first-rounders waves back.

No point bringing in top-tier talent when they go into a system that can't support them.

Fixing the internal workings of the club should be our highest priority. By all means, go to the draft with our current selections, but a complete overhaul is ludicrous.

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6 minutes ago, olisik said:

Eyebrows were raised when Sparrow was picked so early in last years draft. Especially since we traded up for that specific pick, only to take a player who would’ve gone later anyway...

another slow inside mid.....

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53 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

I can think of three more important things than a list rebuild that we need to do going into 2020:

  1. Change/tweak the gameplan - less playing on, fewer handpasses, more kick-mark, feeding into better connection between the midfielders and forwards
  2. Fitness - full overhaul needed here. Too many players stuck in rehab too long, too many injuries, not enough two-way running, too many players failing to develop physically
  3. Leadership - Viney/Jones need to be removed from captaincy and it needs to be given to Gawn. 

We need to make some list changes too of course, but we don't need the drastic changes that some on here suggest.

I don't agree that we stand to benefit by trading out someone like Brayshaw or Petracca. We'll get a top 5 pick and a second rounder in the 20-25 range. Do our homework, take those to the draft, and bring in two quality top-25 draft picks. 

Too conservative. This club needs to get aggressive and make some tough calls.

Petracca is first on the block for mine. Get a 10 - 20 pick for him while we still can.

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4 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Too conservative. This club needs to get aggressive and make some tough calls.

Petracca is first on the block for mine. Get a 10 - 20 pick for him while we still can.

Probably our only effective forward...

You really know your football 'Matsuo'.

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1 minute ago, rjay said:

Probably our only effective forward...

You really know your football 'Matsuo'.

I'm not saying he's a terrible player. I still think we'll get a decent pick for him. 10 - 20.

But I firmly believe he won't be the player many want him to be. Too enigmatic. Too many flaws with his kicking.

Hard calls need to be made.

 

 

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players currently rumoured to be on the move / not getting a game / in and out of seniors and magoos for these clubs:

adelaide - bryce gibbs, cam ellis-yolmen (free agent), alex keath, reilly o'brien, riley knight, josh jenkins, darcy fogarty
brisbane - lewis taylor
carlton - matthew kennedy, jack silvagni
collingwood - jamie elliott (free agent?), brayden sier (back in the team now), rupert wills
essendon - darcy parish, dylan clarke
fremantle - the hill brothers (if you believe the rumours), ed langdon
gc17 - tom nicholls, sam day
geelong - nakia cockatoo, quinton narkle, charlie constable (can't see them letting him go)
gw$ - stephen coniglio (free agent), jonno patton, isaac cumming
hawks - isaac smith
us (currency) - gus brayshaw, trac, anb, hunt, o mac
north melbourne - paul ahern, ed vickers-wills, nathan hrovat, taylor garner
port - paddy ryder, sam powell-pepper, karl amon (tried to get back to victoria last year), joe atley
richmond - jack higgins, shai bolton, connor menadue, oleg markov, jacob townsend
st. kilda - jack newnes, hunter clark, jack steven, david armitage 
sydney - tom papley, zak jones, nick smith, ben ronke
western bulldogs - toby mclean, lin jong

now, as @DeeSpencer said, we ain't gonna get anything for the latter three players on our presumed currency list - a third round pick at best

of that lot of names from other clubs, the ones that immediately stick out as adding something to us would by lead by coniglio, the hill brothers, langdon, higgins, zak jones, papley, ronke, and mclean

we really need to grab a decent free agent at some point; every club seems to have done it but us and the franchises; would love to be in the conversation for coniglio, but it seems unlikely

i'd rule coniglio and the hill bros. out from the get go (they'll all stay), and the same for higgins and papley - the talk seems to have dialled off on the latter leaving sydney, but zak jones remains a topic of conversation

the question is if we were to target the likes of:

  • lewis taylor
  • ed langdon
  • sam day
  • joe atley
  • zak jones
  • toby mclean

how on earth do you get them all in?

ed langdon and zak jones are awkward cos they're probably worth more than our second rounder, and mclean might be worth around about that but the likes of taylor, day, and atley should be available at a cheaper rate you'd hope

our list doesn't need a rebuild; it needs a constant tinker

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It’s not time for a rebuild but it’s definitely time for a harsh analysis of where certain players are at and where we thought they would be. I keep saying it in different threads but 2019 is still an opportunity to build something for 2020 and that has to start with playing things smart and potentially ruthless. 

I think the bigger issue lies with our gameplan and less the players executing it. When the plan works it’s breathtaking and exciting but when it fails it backfired on us horrifically. There surely has to be a middle ground in there that allows for patience before pulling the trigger at the right time. I feel like someone like Salem understands and does this more than anyone else. He looks for the lateral movement kick that can free someone up further afield rather than going for the long 1 on 1 to a bad position and to a guy that doesn’t actually have anyone to go to even if he wins it. 

Too often we get a mark near the center and immediately handball to a runner going past, they immediately get pressured into either a long no look bomb or get caught (which happened a lot v Lions). 

Before we start a player rebuild, we should be looking at a game style rebuild. 

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Yay a rebuild. Let’s wait another 5 years to see the same results of young players in and stay mid - bottom table.

And we will draft all those players for the trend of the game that will have changed by the time we have those players ready and we will still be 3 years behind other teams.

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9 hours ago, goodwindees said:

You’re totally missing his point which was that he simply named some first year draft picks that haven’t taken 4 years to develop & contribute. 

And my point is that we don't and won't have those picks. We will have one high pick this year. Oliver was a hit from year one, was he not? As was Brayshaw.

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5 hours ago, Pates said:

It’s not time for a rebuild but it’s definitely time for a harsh analysis of where certain players are at and where we thought they would be. I keep saying it in different threads but 2019 is still an opportunity to build something for 2020 and that has to start with playing things smart and potentially ruthless. 

I think the bigger issue lies with our gameplan and less the players executing it. When the plan works it’s breathtaking and exciting but when it fails it backfired on us horrifically. There surely has to be a middle ground in there that allows for patience before pulling the trigger at the right time. I feel like someone like Salem understands and does this more than anyone else. He looks for the lateral movement kick that can free someone up further afield rather than going for the long 1 on 1 to a bad position and to a guy that doesn’t actually have anyone to go to even if he wins it. 

Too often we get a mark near the center and immediately handball to a runner going past, they immediately get pressured into either a long no look bomb or get caught (which happened a lot v Lions). 

Before we start a player rebuild, we should be looking at a game style rebuild. 

I'm with you Pates!!

The coach appears to me to dumb and stubborn 

The worst possible traits combination. The Game plan isn't working. The players can't  or won't play it at an acceptable standard. The player group appears to be frustrated at being made to play it.

The team tries hard, plays on at all times, takes risks, tackles hard and runs back in defense. Come 3/4 time they are flogged and concede easy goals

Change the game plan and lets see the obvious quality of our current list on display.

Carlton likely to go past us next week.

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9 hours ago, olisik said:

Eyebrows were raised when Sparrow was picked so early in last years draft. Especially since we traded up for that specific pick, only to take a player who would’ve gone later anyway...

Rubbish.

More bull [censored] made up by posters to suit their agenda.

If you happened to watch some of the 'inside' footage from draft night you would've seen a couple of clubs mention him. Carlton were talking about him around the spot they took Stocker.

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2 hours ago, Gorgoroth said:

Yay a rebuild. Let’s wait another 5 years to see the same results of young players in and stay mid - bottom table.

And we will draft all those players for the trend of the game that will have changed by the time we have those players ready and we will still be 3 years behind other teams.

And the same nuffies that start these kind of threads will start one in 5 years time saying we need a big clean out because these draftees haven't worked out also 🙄

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10 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Rubbish.

More bull [censored] made up by posters to suit their agenda.

If you happened to watch some of the 'inside' footage from draft night you would've seen a couple of clubs mention him. Carlton were talking about him around the spot they took Stocker.

Mate find my one phantom draft from 2018 that had him in top 30. Most had him around the below. Gotta love that he has a - next to kicking efficiency and decision making as well.

Exactly what we needed to trade up the draft for...

05793762-2A60-4580-B71E-7A7D74B9344C.jpeg

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