Post Practice Match Discussion - Melbourne v Collingwood

[Skuit 10,031]

1 hour ago, sue said:

Well obviously it is not always because of a flaw and let's hope other factors are involved with Preuss.

 But when you consider the glee which many here saw the departure of players like Watts (and others), you have to admit it is reasonable for supporters of the destination club to ask why his original club moved a player on.   

I feel like you didn't really read my post. Wasn't moved on. Was targeted and recruited. Nothing reasonable North could do about it. Are North fans exhibiting glee?

[Dee Zephyr 19,267]

21 minutes ago, brendan said:

Ask any pies supporter and the flag is there’s to lose this year, I really hope they fall in a heap sure they have some handy players but there list doesn’t bat that deep, they almost did a bulldogs and played a good month of footy last year and pinched it, some of the comments on the game day thread on big footy are laughable, apparently Taylor Adams is a better midfielder than Oliver who knew.

oh and Melksham wouldn’t be in there best 22 either lol 

Thanks for the prompting to head over, must say it was a great laugh. It’s almost worth joining up over there just to give this Pie fan a like.

“The Oliver bagging is embarrassing, he is a very, very good footballer & for his age will only get better, possibly elite.

Would love to have him.

Keep your snout in the trough Piggy!”

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,176]

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

Cognitive bias is an amusing phenomenon.  

Most people have hardly seen Preuss play, but they're sure he's in Melbourne's best 22, because a) Melbourne decided to recruit him, b) training reports, c) he kicked two goals in a practice game against a team that had no decent key defenders, and d) West Coast play two rucks.

Preuss was OK, but he's a bit of a lumberer and not a particularly good tap ruckman.  He's aggressive, which is great, but right now he's a pretty average footballer. 

Agree it is bias but it is also based on more than the above for me.

• A want to play three talls and no less than 2 at a time. I don't think either Smith is much more than planned back up.
• A want for Weid to further develop by getting a less mature or experienced tall where possible.
• A preference to minimise any need for TMac or Weid to play second ruck.
• A belief that the new rules further warrant a true second ruck particularly the ability to grab the ball when locked forward; a want to keep a true tall higher for the longer play from a kick out; and a true tall deeper for the positive centre clearance (and a true one at the centre at all bounces).
• A want to ensure our number 1 weapon in Gawn is better protected from wear and tear throughout the year. Prefer to see this during game rather than have him rested for games.

I am not sold yet but it is my preferred initial set up based on many mounting factors until it proves not to be the case. The concern will be do they get in each others way and do we lose forward pressure and ability to chase out of defence but these are just watchpoints at this time.

Edited February 24, 2019 by big_red_fire_engine

[BAMF 4,352]

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

Cognitive bias is an amusing phenomenon.  

Most people have hardly seen Preuss play, but they're sure he's in Melbourne's best 22, because a) Melbourne decided to recruit him, b) training reports, c) he kicked two goals in a practice game against a team that had no decent key defenders, and d) West Coast play two rucks.

Preuss was OK, but he's a bit of a lumberer and not a particularly good tap ruckman.  He's aggressive, which is great, but right now he's a pretty average footballer. 

Who has said they have him in the best 22?

[jnrmac 20,061]

1 hour ago, BAMF said:

Who has said they have him in the best 22?

"most people" apparently ...

[binman 42,938]

On preuss, I'm sticking by my prediction he will play around 70% of games and at least once twice be the sole rock with gawny getting a rest (perhaps after or before a bye).

As another poster posited when he does play will likely spend a fair bit of time on the bench.

[sue 9,104]

2 hours ago, Skuit said:

I feel like you didn't really read my post. Wasn't moved on. Was targeted and recruited. Nothing reasonable North could do about it. Are North fans exhibiting glee?

I did read it Skuit. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the words 'moved on' but said ' not desperately retained'.   I stand by my remark that it is reasonable for fans of a club receiving a player to ask why he departed from his original club.  The reason can be anything from glad to get rid of him, through good, but surplus to requirements, to we were [censored] off he left.  All I'm saying it is reasonable to ask, not judging Preuss.  

[Demonland 72,180]

 

[Fork 'em 6,983]

3 hours ago, brendan said:

  apparently Taylor Adams is a better midfielder than Oliver who knew.

 

A mad collingwood supporter at work thinks Adams is an overrated turnover merchant.

[Tony Tea 2,809]

Petracca on the ball for longer will be a huge bonus if he is up to the fitness. He ripped Adelaide apart at the SACA in 2017 (I think it was 2017), when he was shifted into the guts and took the game by the scruff of its collarless jumper.

[Tony Tea 2,809]

22 minutes ago, Fork 'em said:

A mad collingwood supporter at work thinks Adams is an overrated turnover merchant.

Not an extravagant opinion. A few Pie colleagues and mates think the same. Has a real go, tho.

[PaulRB 6,363]

6 hours ago, Gunna’s said:

The risk of having both ruckman is the affect on the bench and having midfield rotations. We have a strong solid midfield group now but are they fit enough to make up a player that they would have had previously in the rotations?

I like the idea of Pruess and Gawn together, but don’t think they will play 100% TOG.

Does the benefit of a tall fwd line out way the lost rotation?

I think you’ve nailed the critical piece of data, with our midfielders now mature and at best practice levels of fitness, our need to rotate them through the bench decreases, allowing us to employ the bench more strategically. 

The days when young mids were managed at 75% game time are done, with Tracca the last to be needing this support. 

This means the Preuss addition will be for many games and to good effect.

[58er 6,435]

22 hours ago, Dr.D said:

Stef Martin would've been nice. Blind Freddy could see the Martin was going to be a gun. Not sure who it was that decided to get rid of him but I saw his all-australian potential from the outset. 

I agree I was dumbfounded when Melb let Stef go. I thought he was very slow learning as a ruck but always thought he could end up full back as he showed on Bradshaw and Brown in his first game vs Lions in 2008. He had the bulk and weight to play on giant forwards from opposition.

I don't think we gave Steph enough time and prematurely gave up on him. Not sure but I don't think he was the one who initiated the move.

Re Jolly my recollection is that Coach Neil Daniher kept selecting Jeff White as the only ruck and he virtually stamped his change to the Swans which IMO was a shocker of a decision.

No attempt to give Jolly time andalso no one when Whitey retired and needed assistance as we now realise Maxie needs.

I am of the view that Pruess will play more than half the games and Maxie will still be a star up forward and down back and on the ball. Pruess will earn his spot as he can mark kick run tackle and will improve his palming out to our mids. Remember he is so big the fear factor and chaos plus marking will have opposition defences along with our forward mix of talls and smalls plus pressure and no of entries on full time watch and effort to contain scores. 

Its all a but if a guess  of course but either way I expect our forward line to be top class and take us far in the season in September.

[Deemania since 56 6,636]

19 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

I am not doing that, yet. But if Max and Preuss can work together and give each other breaks from being crashed into, then  they could become a great combination for the MFC

 The rub remains with the combination; Gawn is our 'best of all time' as a ruckman; Preuss is the other part of a combination with dangerous forward potential, a training agenda in the game plans as he has years ahead written on him, and what appears to be a killer instinct as a big bloke. Supports Gawn to a 'T' one would think.

There are other elements emerging in the alleged best 22 that support this combination in the air, around the ground, in the heavy stuff, outside the heavy stuff, all acting in a game plan of organised chaos, two-way mobility and speed. We are stronger with this combination, more reliable and lethal, and well-supported by one another across the board. Go Dees; the scratch match just oiled some joints, the season will benefit from the massive increase in cylinder displacement.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

30 minutes ago, 58er said:

Re Jolly my recollection is that Coach Neil Daniher kept selecting Jeff White as the only ruck and he virtually stamped his change to the Swans which IMO was a shocker of a decision.

No attempt to give Jolly time andalso no one when Whitey retired and needed assistance as we now realise Maxie needs.

Jeff White was an AA ruckman at the peak of his powers when Jolly was around.  In hindsight you might say it was a shocker of a decision, but Jolly was never going to be a first choice ruckman at Melbourne.  Jolly knew he was capable, as did we and the Swans, so when they offered a first rounder we jumped on it.  That's life.  

To me, Preuss will only play in specific games where we think having two ruckmen will work.  Port in Round 1, for example, might be a game where we go with two forwards to combat the potential threat of Lycett and Ryder.  In other games where a team might go for just one recognised ruck and a pinch hitter, we might attempt to do the same.  I can't see us going with two rucks for the majority of the season.

[Macca 16,967]

If we see real change in the sport (because of the new rules) then playing another tall forward might become necessary.  And another tall forward could mean that player could serve as the 2nd ruck (Preuss)  And of course Gawn can play forward whilst Preuss plays in the ruck.

But it's all guesswork really as the new rules may not have a profound effect on the sport ... if we see more of the same,  Preuss will be used periodically or when applicable.

But as @binman  and others have mentioned,  the play after a behind has been scored might see the game take a new turn.  The player standing 20 metres from goal can't necessarily be a slow lumbering type otherwise it's a no-contest for the player using the ball after a behind has been scored.

Conversely,  if the ball moves rapidly into the forward line from that type of play then having tall marking options in a mismatch situation can become mandatory.  Especially if that play happens frequently. 

With 6-6-6 who knows?  We need to see that new rule play out over at least a 3rd of the season before any real data can be put to good use.  That data might come earlier but it might take longer to appraise.

[DV8 2,271]

On 2/22/2019 at 4:30 PM, Demonland said:

 

Proportionally similar to what Mark Jamars body appeared.

 

Some more 'condition',  yet to come off,  IMV.  

... thru the season hopefully, with hard midfield work... and again next Preseason.

[58er 6,435]

No he is very fit no extra kilos 

[sisso 2,580]

57 minutes ago, DV8 said:

Proportionally similar to what Mark Jamars body appeared.

 

Some more 'condition',  yet to come off,  IMV.  

... thru the season hopefully, with hard midfield work... and again next Preseason.

I can't see too much fat there, he's built like a tank but its looks like muscle to me....I wish I was in that bad a condition!

[Gator 17,335]

6 hours ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

Agree it is bias but it is also based on more than the above for me.

• A want to play three talls and no less than 2 at a time. I don't think either Smith is much more than planned back up.
• A want for Weid to further develop by getting a less mature or experienced tall where possible.
• A preference to minimise any need for TMac or Weid to play second ruck.
• A belief that the new rules further warrant a true second ruck particularly the ability to grab the ball when locked forward; a want to keep a true tall higher for the longer play from a kick out; and a true tall deeper for the positive centre clearance (and a true one at the centre at all bounces).
• A want to ensure our number 1 weapon in Gawn is better protected from wear and tear throughout the year. Prefer to see this during game rather than have him rested for games.

I am not sold yet but it is my preferred initial set up based on many mounting factors until it proves not to be the case. The concern will be do they get in each others way and do we lose forward pressure and ability to chase out of defence but these are just watchpoints at this time.

All fair comments.

[DV8 2,271]

1 hour ago, sisso said:

I can't see too much fat there, he's built like a tank but its looks like muscle to me....I wish I was in that bad a condition!

yes muscle as well.... we do not a 100mtr sprinter like Ben Johnson.  We need more of a  400mtr and mid distance runner with some power.  Someone who can run and run, and also hit with power.

 

Tracca as I said before, is shaped proportionally...  like Mark Jamar was.

For a Mid,  he is still a bit too big.   I think he has shed, most fat.  most...

But he needs to shed some muscle,  as well.

[sisso 2,580]

1 hour ago, DV8 said:

yes muscle as well.... we do not a 100mtr sprinter like Ben Johnson.  We need more of a  400mtr and mid distance runner with some power.  Someone who can run and run, and also hit with power.

 

Tracca as I said before, is shaped proportionally...  like Mark Jamar was.

For a Mid,  he is still a bit too big.   I think he has shed, most fat.  most...

But he needs to shed some muscle,  as well.

I think he'll play in bursts through the middle, where his size and strength will be an asset at centre clearances. He's probably always going to be a heavy, muscular player - looks can be deceiving though...Ollie Wines is a similar build and that hasn't stopped him developing the tank for big midfield minutes.

[Hunt29 275]

I think Preuss showed enough to be in the round one team. Unless he stinks it up on JLT. I’ll just be interested to see how it works with Tmac Weideman an Preuss. 

Preuss brings a huge amount of aggression and could no doubt cause a fair amount of havoc for opposition defenders. 

What Friday showed though was Gawn’s ruck minutes won’t be taking a hit and he’s a dominant ruckman. His work rate is first class. 

[jnrmac 20,061]

5 hours ago, 58er said:

I agree I was dumbfounded when Melb let Stef go. I thought he was very slow learning as a ruck but always thought he could end up full back as he showed on Bradshaw and Brown in his first game vs Lions in 2008. He had the bulk and weight to play on giant forwards from opposition.

I don't think we gave Steph enough time and prematurely gave up on him. Not sure but I don't think he was the one who initiated the move.

Re Jolly my recollection is that Coach Neil Daniher kept selecting Jeff White as the only ruck and he virtually stamped his change to the Swans which IMO was a shocker of a decision.

No attempt to give Jolly time andalso no one when Whitey retired and needed assistance as we now realise Maxie needs.

I am of the view that Pruess will play more than half the games and Maxie will still be a star up forward and down back and on the ball. Pruess will earn his spot as he can mark kick run tackle and will improve his palming out to our mids. Remember he is so big the fear factor and chaos plus marking will have opposition defences along with our forward mix of talls and smalls plus pressure and no of entries on full time watch and effort to contain scores. 

Its all a but if a guess  of course but either way I expect our forward line to be top class and take us far in the season in September.

White was Danihers love child. Jolly was getting 6-10min game time and was rightly frustrated.

I think DJ wasn't popular either and there were a few happy to see him gone....

[DV8 2,271]

1 hour ago, sisso said:

I think he'll play in bursts through the middle, where his size and strength will be an asset at centre clearances. He's probably always going to be a heavy, muscular player - looks can be deceiving though...Ollie Wines is a similar build and that hasn't stopped him developing the tank for big midfield minutes.

Of course hes going to be a solid build player, that isn't the problem, not mu issue with where he's at... the problem is hes to big, unnecessarily.

If we want him to be Top Flite in midfield and go to the flank as well,  then we don't want him so heavy.  He doesn't have the endurance required to run enough, and back up on enough 2nd and 3rd efforts,  to put that frame into action for us.

 

His frame is great...  its the meek brawn that's too much of a hindrance.