Farewell Jesse Hogan

[ManDee 7,162]

4 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

Are you saying that Hogan = Kelly + Lynch?

We spent 2 first round picks on Lever, and he was I contracted. You’d have to spend more than that on Kelly alone. Plus Lynch is RFA, so draft picks aren’t important.

If we got pick 5 and Cerra for Hogan, we’d give them straight to GWS for Kelly. Then we have give Lynch a vault of cash .... which we can’t afford after paying Kelly who got that to re-sign with GWS on a long term deal.

You haven’t thought this through.

Bob it was a proposition not a fait accompli. You will note I completed my proposition with a question mark. I hadn't thought it through as it was indicative of the possibilities that having drafts picks offers, it was not a suggestion of an actual trade. I say keep Hogan but if he wants to go then we should explore all possibilities. 

[old dee 23,801]

8 minutes ago, Nasher said:

Threads get closed if they’re spurious, damaging or otherwise against the rules.

There’s nothing against the code of conduct in this thread. People have the right to share their ideas, even if the rest of us think they are completely inane and illogical. 

Thank God you understand the concept Nasher.

[Superunknown 4,217]

1 hour ago, Dirts said:

And the little creatures brewing company 

I'd rather Holgate thanks

[beelzebub 23,380]

25 minutes ago, Watson11 said:

That is true but we have also been good at lowering the eyes for the last 2 weeks.  If we had done that all season we would have finished top of the ladder.

Funny how many don't see this...we stop bombing relentlessly...and efficiency to goal increases. 

It brings into question the whole fwd structure and how we play. 

This in turn raises the notion of who plays where.

Hogan may be very good but he may not be the best solution. Doesn't surprise me some can't decipher the difference.

 

[Axis of Bob 11,836]

Looking at the stats of McDonald when Hogan is playing vs not playing:

McDonald’s scoring shots have gone down, his disposals have gone down, his contested disposals have fallen dramatically (7 down to 2.5), has not taken any contested marks, taken less marks inside 50, kicked the ball inside 50 less, etc.

His stats have fallen off dramatically since he’s had to play on the opposition’s best defender.

Conversely, Weideman’s stats have improved. In fact, they are better than McDonald’s. Weid, the last 2 games, has averaged more disposals than Tom in 2018, more contested marks than Tom in 2018, and more contested possessions than Tom  in 2018.

Perhaps the question shouldn’t be “Hogan + McDonald vs McDonald + Weideman” but rather “Hogan + McDonald vs Hogan + Weideman”. ?‍♂️

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by Axis of Bob

[Redleg 40,979]

1 hour ago, ManDee said:

 I say keep Hogan but if he wants to go then we should explore all possibilities. 

And there is nothing wrong or stupid in discussing that on a fan forum.

[Gator 17,383]

12 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

Looking at the stats of McDonald when Hogan is playing vs not playing:

McDonald’s scoring shots have gone down, his disposals have gone down, his contested disposals have fallen dramatically (7 down to 2.5), has not taken any contested marks, taken less marks inside 50, kicked the ball inside 50 less, etc.

His stats have fallen off dramatically since he’s had to play on the opposition’s best defender.

Conversely, Weideman’s stats have improved. In fact, they are better than McDonald’s. Weid, the last 2 games, has averaged more disposals than Tom in 2018, more contested marks than Tom in 2018, and more contested possessions than Tom  in 2018.

Perhaps the question shouldn’t be “Hogan + McDonald vs McDonald + Weideman” but rather “Hogan + McDonald vs Hogan + Weideman”. ?‍♂️

 

I was having this discussion yesterday. 

I really rate what Weideman can become, but also like what McDonald offers as the second banana.  And unlike some I'm a Jesse fan and he's 3 years from his peak years.

I can't see the three of them working well in the same forward half.  But I could be wrong.

I'll be fascinated to see what Goodwin comes up with in 2019.

[Watson11 2,241]

49 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Funny how many don't see this...we stop bombing relentlessly...and efficiency to goal increases. 

It brings into question the whole fwd structure and how we play. 

This in turn raises the notion of who plays where.

Hogan may be very good but he may not be the best solution. Doesn't surprise me some can't decipher the difference.

 

I can't remember which thread it was on but our forward structure and entries according to the poster was based on statistics on goalkicking etc, and that the goalkicking efficiency was really good from 0-30m and central, but statistically drops off further out and on the angles.  The implication was that the players had been coached to aim to get the ball to players in a better position, hence were probably ignoring the leads that were further out so as to kick to the hot spot, not taking shots from 45-50m and trying to pass off quickly etc.  This seems to have been fixed and modified the last couple of weeks.  Kind of like basketball, it's like Goodwin etc was always trying to get the high percentage layup, whereas now we are hitting the leads and making some 3 pointers which makes the layups harder to defend as well.  I'm really confident that if we continue to play how we have the last 2 weeks with our inside 50s we will be really hard to beat. 

So onto Hogan with the more recent game style, we will be even better if we have really quick players in our forward 50 who can get 5m on a lead.  Hogan is ideally made for this style because of his speed, endurance, strength etc  I wouldn't trade him for mids, draft picks etc and am really keen to see us use him better next year.

[Redleg 40,979]

3 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I was having this discussion yesterday. 

I really rate what Weideman can become, but also like what McDonald offers as the second banana.  And unlike some I'm a Jesse fan and he's 3 years from his peak years.

I can't see the three of them working well in the same forward half.  But I could be wrong.

I'll be fascinated to see what Goodwin comes up with in 2019.

One thing we know is that players get injuries.

I think all of Tom, Jesse and Sam missed games this year.

I would rather have 3 good key forwards than 2. One can always play in another position if need be.

[rjay 24,996]

1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

Funny how many don't see this...we stop bombing relentlessly...and efficiency to goal increases. 

It brings into question the whole fwd structure and how we play. 

This in turn raises the notion of who plays where.

Hogan may be very good but he may not be the best solution. Doesn't surprise me some can't decipher the difference.

 

It brings into question how we played, how the mids used the ball. Not necessarily the forward structure.

We are not a in a static environment, it's a young team growing and learning to play together.

Imagine how good Hogan would be if we didn't keep bombing the ball in and lowered our eyes earlier in the season....

[Lucifers Hero 39,991]

20 hours ago, binman said:

Hello DrD. I can only assume you have not seen this or the other posts directing you to it. Other wise your avatar would be changed already. So once again here is the your new avatar - i look forward to seeing it next to your name:

So paging Dr D here is your new avatar (note; please ensure if needing to crop the picture below you get Mark's whole face):

 

18 hours ago, Dr.D said:

Thanks!!! i found you! ok i'll change my avatar. so whats the relevance of neeld?

Kudos @Dr.Dfor being a good sport and accepting that avatar. 

Unlike another poster who reneged on a similar deal to accept an Oscar Mc avatar when Oscar came good and said poster praised Oscar last year.  I won't out said poster (others might) but he knows who he is...

[rjay 24,996]

26 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I was having this discussion yesterday. 

I really rate what Weideman can become, but also like what McDonald offers as the second banana.  And unlike some I'm a Jesse fan and he's 3 years from his peak years.

I can't see the three of them working well in the same forward half.  But I could be wrong.

I'll be fascinated to see what Goodwin comes up with in 2019.

A lot will depend on how the AFL changes effect the game.

If it's a lot more open then the 3 in the forward half are going to be a handful for opposition teams when they can't get numbers back.

[jackaub 1,402]

34 minutes ago, Watson11 said:

I can't remember which thread it was on but our forward structure and entries according to the poster was based on statistics on goalkicking etc, and that the goalkicking efficiency was really good from 0-30m and central, but statistically drops off further out and on the angles.  The implication was that the players had been coached to aim to get the ball to players in a better position, hence were probably ignoring the leads that were further out so as to kick to the hot spot, not taking shots from 45-50m and trying to pass off quickly etc.  This seems to have been fixed and modified the last couple of weeks.  Kind of like basketball, it's like Goodwin etc was always trying to get the high percentage layup, whereas now we are hitting the leads and making some 3 pointers which makes the layups harder to defend as well.  I'm really confident that if we continue to play how we have the last 2 weeks with our inside 50s we will be really hard to beat. 

So onto Hogan with the more recent game style, we will be even better if we have really quick players in our forward 50 who can get 5m on a lead.  Hogan is ideally made for this style because of his speed, endurance, strength etc  I wouldn't trade him for mids, draft picks etc and am really keen to see us use him better next year.

Except that he doesnt lead enough

[Watson11 2,241]

11 minutes ago, jackaub said:

Except that he doesnt lead enough

I’ve seen enough games where his leads are ignored.  The Port game was the worst.  And if the instruction was to get the ball 0-30m and central then that would explain why he stays home too much and ends up competing for pack marks which is not his game (unless one on one). 

[Gator 17,383]

54 minutes ago, Redleg said:

One thing we know is that players get injuries.

I think all of Tom, Jesse and Sam missed games this year.

I would rather have 3 good key forwards than 2. One can always play in another position if need be.

If I'm one of those players that answer doesn't cut it for me.

[beelzebub 23,380]

20 minutes ago, jackaub said:

Except that he doesnt lead enough

Johnno suggests no so much doesn't....just not to right spots.

Than in itself might cause him to be ignored as mentioned by another.

[Nasher 33,616]

11 minutes ago, ProDee said:

If I'm one of those players that answer doesn't cut it for me.

Especially if you’re the most junior, and coincidentally out of contract player and you’re well aware of your current place in the pecking order.

I’ve seen both Weideman and Frost give interviews where they’ve said, to paraphrase, it’s a real shame x senior player went down, but thank f he did because otherwise I’d have to settle for a VFL flag tilt. I doubt either player would be that interested in the prospect of doing that next year when they’ve now demonstrated they can do it at the top.

[Goffer 256]

Rumour doing the rounds is that Lachie Neale wants out of Freo and the Lions are into him big time, apparently a direct swap of pick 4 is on the table. Would pick 4 & 5, their first round picks, be enough to get Hogan to the Dockers? 

[SFebes 4,884]

1 minute ago, Goffer said:

Rumour doing the rounds is that Lachie Neale wants out of Freo and the Lions are into him big time, apparently a direct swap of pick 4 is on the table. Would pick 4 & 5, their first round picks, be enough to get Hogan to the Dockers? 

Maybe this is why Freo want to build a war chest for Hogan. Pick 4 and Cerra and I'd look at it, ontrade pick 4 for a gun mid from GWS.

[rpfc 28,543]

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

I was having this discussion yesterday. 

I really rate what Weideman can become, but also like what McDonald offers as the second banana.  And unlike some I'm a Jesse fan and he's 3 years from his peak years.

I can't see the three of them working well in the same forward half.  But I could be wrong.

I'll be fascinated to see what Goodwin comes up with in 2019.

Good footy players will make it work. Hogan in the middle from time to time and Weideman to continue his excellent progression as second ruck. McDonald may need to go back/wing as well if we are too tall.

Gawn needs more of Weideman and Hogan is good enough to make it work in my opinion.

[DV8 2,271]

4 hours ago, Dr.D said:

80% of people on this thread wanted to keep jack watts. And like I said that was embarassing. I would've got rid of him 5 years earlier. He was clearly never going to make it. We probably wouldve made finals sooner without him. Port will delist him at the end of next season. Some people are so blinded by their deep support that they don't have it in them to talk about a players flaws. 

Sadly, If we did, 5 yrs ago, he may have been young enough to change his attitude at another club.  Not now I think.

[old55 23,625]

18 minutes ago, Nasher said:

Especially if you’re the most junior, and coincidentally out of contract player and you’re well aware of your current place in the pecking order.

I’ve seen both Weideman and Frost give interviews where they’ve said, to paraphrase, it’s a real shame x senior player went down, but thank f he did because otherwise I’d have to settle for a VFL flag tilt. I doubt either player would be that interested in the prospect of doing that next year when they’ve now demonstrated they can do it at the top.

It's a great problem to have, but it will be tricky to manage.

I think only 2 of Hogan, TMac and Weed fit forward - we tried the 3 tall fwds earlier in the year and it worked briefly but then failed.

We've got it at both ends.  I think also probably only 2 KPBs fit too - that's currently out of Lever, Frost and OMac.  We've got Keilty and Petty developing there nicely too - although they will be more patient.

The added curve ball is that Hogan and Weed could play great football back too, so that may be a solution to the forward problem but add to the defence problem.

It will come to the crunch in 2019.

 

[Gator 17,383]

8 minutes ago, rpfc said:

Good footy players will make it work. Hogan in the middle from time to time and Weideman to continue his excellent progression as second ruck. McDonald may need to go back/wing as well if we are too tall.

Gawn needs more of Weideman and Hogan is good enough to make it work in my opinion.

You're not convincing me.

But who knows, you may be right.

[Willmoy1947 4,103]

On 8/28/2018 at 9:26 PM, djr said:

Another thing to think about is the seriousness of Jessie's injury....his foot. 

....but, is it?

[Sir Why You Little 37,052]

I am interested in what Sam Mclure has said. Despite his diabolical hair style, the guy has very good mail, he is rarely 100% wrong. 

I want Jesse to stay, but i will be watching this space