POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 15

[Dr. Gonzo 24,270]

52 minutes ago, Dee Zephyr said:

It’s becoming extremely difficult to defend Tyson lately. One passage of play typified his game yesterday. 

During a centre bounce in the first quarter he lined up on the wing ( southern side) standing right next to his opponent. He wasn’t even aware the ball had been bounced because he was looking down at the ground at the time. Inexcusable and poor concentration.

His opponent had taken off into the square, only then did Tyson realise he better get on his bike but way too late. The guy lacks leg speed as it is and yet Goody persists with him there. Of course the hit-out came southern side and his opponent with a 3 metre gap won the ball and kicked it forward resulting in a shot at goal for them. 

I don’t like to pot players but this only an observation. I was keeping an eye out for Tyson on the wing to determine what we actually gain from it. 

 

Tyson is finished in my eyes, too slow by hand, foot and mind and turnover merchant who rarely hits the scoreboard. Not sure what he actually brings to the table these days. Depth? Maybe.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Dr. Gonzo

[poita 3,902]

The Collingwood & Richmond losses were tolerable given that we were beaten by two very good sides, and didn't really drop our bundle under severe pressure. We should have beaten both Port & Geelong, but didn't take our chances. However, yesterday's game and the Hawthorn game were both disgraceful. In both cases it was a diabolical combination of disrespecting the opposition, overrating our own abilities, poor team selection, and woeful coaching and strategy.

Gawn was quite outstanding, we got contributions from Fritsch,  Harmes, Hibberd, Viney and Oliver, and that was about it.

Hannan has been disgraceful for a month and should be at Casey. Melksham had one of his regular 'can't be stuffed days'. Weideman is not an AFL footballer, and almost certainly never will be. Ditto Smith (both of them actually). Lewis is lazy and should never be allowed to play as a loose man. Tyson is being played out of position. Jetta and T.McDonald were both clearly unfit and should not have played. Salem is a constant disappointment, and I would happily trade him for someone with some leg speed. Neal-Bullen still can't handle the heat.

Our inability to get around a player who is struggling is just mind boggling. Petty was obviously struggling, but when did our senior players get over to him and try to help him out? Oliver was being scragged and molested all day, and nobody flew the flag for him. More than any other, Jones disappoints me in this respect.

Yet again Goodwin did nothing, tried nothing to change the course of the game. T.McDonald had no impact on the game, so we could have put him to half back to help out Petty & O.McDonald. Hogan could have gone into the middle to get some touches in the first half. We didn't man up their loose players coming through the centre. Why not have Melksham run with Steven, or Hannan play across half back to get them in the game?

The Casey game was pretty ordinary, but we clearly need to bite the bullet on a few players and give them 3 weeks to find their feet in the senior team. Garlett, Frost, Pedersen and Stretch are the obvious ones. I'd even consider Bugg if it was to do a tagging job.

 

[old dee 23,870]

Well the 2018 season is well into the laster quarter and not a lot has changed for most of the decade. We are almost spent and the finals look a fading chance situation normal. We are still playing the Weid after  a good game against cellar dwellers at vfl level and he is till producing blinders.

Oh one thing has  improved I was drinking a better single malt last night a very nice Bowmore. 

[MurDoc516 1,529]

17 minutes ago, poita said:

The Collingwood & Richmond losses were tolerable given that we were beaten by two very good sides, and didn't really drop our bundle under severe pressure. We should have beaten both Port & Geelong, but didn't take our chances. However, yesterday's game and the Hawthorn game were both disgraceful. In both cases it was a diabolical combination of disrespecting the opposition, overrating our own abilities, poor team selection, and woeful coaching and strategy.

Gawn was quite outstanding, we got contributions from Fritsch,  Harmes, Hibberd, Viney and Oliver, and that was about it.

Hannan has been disgraceful for a month and should be at Casey. Melksham had one of his regular 'can't be stuffed days'. Weideman is not an AFL footballer, and almost certainly never will be. Ditto Smith (both of them actually). Lewis is lazy and should never be allowed to play as a loose man. Tyson is being played out of position. Jetta and T.McDonald were both clearly unfit and should not have played. Salem is a constant disappointment, and I would happily trade him for someone with some leg speed. Neal-Bullen still can't handle the heat.

Our inability to get around a player who is struggling is just mind boggling. Petty was obviously struggling, but when did our senior players get over to him and try to help him out? Oliver was being scragged and molested all day, and nobody flew the flag for him. More than any other, Jones disappoints me in this respect.

Yet again Goodwin did nothing, tried nothing to change the course of the game. T.McDonald had no impact on the game, so we could have put him to half back to help out Petty & O.McDonald. Hogan could have gone into the middle to get some touches in the first half. We didn't man up their loose players coming through the centre. Why not have Melksham run with Steven, or Hannan play across half back to get them in the game?

The Casey game was pretty ordinary, but we clearly need to bite the bullet on a few players and give them 3 weeks to find their feet in the senior team. Garlett, Frost, Pedersen and Stretch are the obvious ones. I'd even consider Bugg if it was to do a tagging job.

 

The Smith and Weideman shouts are insane. Both have played very little games and need time to learn. I can't believe how quick people are turning on kids.

[waynewussell 6,237]

Tyson finished?? Just turned 25... I don't think so. Playing out of position, probably... down on confidence, definitely... injured... maybe, but finished? 

[Demon3 2,541]

I have thought and thought about this and for the life of me i cant understand some stuff whats going on, and i am confident enough in my knowledge of the game to raise them seriously, and i am happy for the answers from anyone, i am not being a smart alec, i am genuinely perplexed. ere are my thoughts:

We get the ball inside 50 more than any other team and we play 3 talls and 3 flankers

We are the only team in the comp that currently does not play a traditional small forward, yet we refuse to do anything other than bomb the ball to the same place and watch our talls and flankers fly for the ball.. now if this is the plan, wouldn't it be smart to say to a small forward, just be at the base oft he pack, it will come to ground, you will get chances, in fact i would go so far as to say that playing as a small forward in Melbourne's side might be the easiest of all positions. you wont have to go looking for crumbs, they will be there almost every time in to goes inside 50. its doing my head in.

Goodwin and his "genius" mates in the coaches box need to stop trying to be smart with Tom McDonald and Jesse Hogan. McDonald must play out of the square, Hogan as a CHF (or vice versa)  McDonald strength is he leads towards the ball. how can he do that on the wing? Hogan looks like the last 3 weeks his role is to play between the kicker and the pack.. in no mans land.

Oscar McDonald has had a good year, but he is still a liability down there..he need support, how they selected Petty is actually mind boggling and i know hindsight is wonderful, but why the rush to play the kid, whats wrong with letting a key back develop like we do with key forwards. 

And i have been a fan of Lewis, yes he does infuriate alot of fans, but i have backed him in always, but i think he is out of form and has checked out. Last week when there was blue at half time and he was walking off getting IV by Ch7, i hated that, i would have rather him brush the IV off and run in and back his team. that was a red flag for me. I think his time is up, but what will matter is if Goodwin has the balls to drop him. 

And why one of our leaders and natural ball winning competitors was tagging someone while our other number 1 ball winner was being tagged is beyond extraordinary, and how it took so long for that to be released even worse.

Just some of my frustrations right there, if anyone has the answers that would be great. And for whats it worth i have always thought we are a 10th-6th paced side, not because we are no good, but the comp is so even from 2nd-12th.. but we are blowing our chances again of even being 8th.. and that breaks me.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Demon3

[praha 11,240]

18 minutes ago, poita said:

The Collingwood & Richmond losses were tolerable given that we were beaten by two very good sides, and didn't really drop our bundle under severe pressure. We should have beaten both Port & Geelong, but didn't take our chances. However, yesterday's game and the Hawthorn game were both disgraceful. In both cases it was a diabolical combination of disrespecting the opposition, overrating our own abilities, poor team selection, and woeful coaching and strategy.

Gawn was quite outstanding, we got contributions from Fritsch,  Harmes, Hibberd, Viney and Oliver, and that was about it.

Hannan has been disgraceful for a month and should be at Casey. Melksham had one of his regular 'can't be stuffed days'. Weideman is not an AFL footballer, and almost certainly never will be. Ditto Smith (both of them actually). Lewis is lazy and should never be allowed to play as a loose man. Tyson is being played out of position. Jetta and T.McDonald were both clearly unfit and should not have played. Salem is a constant disappointment, and I would happily trade him for someone with some leg speed. Neal-Bullen still can't handle the heat.

Our inability to get around a player who is struggling is just mind boggling. Petty was obviously struggling, but when did our senior players get over to him and try to help him out? Oliver was being scragged and molested all day, and nobody flew the flag for him. More than any other, Jones disappoints me in this respect.

Yet again Goodwin did nothing, tried nothing to change the course of the game. T.McDonald had no impact on the game, so we could have put him to half back to help out Petty & O.McDonald. Hogan could have gone into the middle to get some touches in the first half. We didn't man up their loose players coming through the centre. Why not have Melksham run with Steven, or Hannan play across half back to get them in the game?

The Casey game was pretty ordinary, but we clearly need to bite the bullet on a few players and give them 3 weeks to find their feet in the senior team. Garlett, Frost, Pedersen and Stretch are the obvious ones. I'd even consider Bugg if it was to do a tagging job.

 

Pretty confident that unless we play finals and they both lift their game, both Salem and Jones will be traded at season's end. That would help us land Gaff and give us more flexibility. We had assets to trade but as is the Melbourne way we always hold onto players for far too long. Cameron Bruce should have been traded long before we let him walk to Hawthorn for nothing. Watts should have been traded after 2016 when his stocks were at their highest. Evidently, we let the likes of Dunn and Howe leave because we still have no idea how to nurture and develop troubled talent. They are both EXACTLY what we need defensively right now.

Goodwin has some runs on the board with Spargo, Hannan and Frisch. But he needs to make another tough decision with this list akin to his Watts decision. 

[Elegt 872]

11 minutes ago, waynewussell said:

Tyson finished?? Just turned 25... I don't think so. Playing out of position, probably... down on confidence, definitely... injured... maybe, but finished? 

slower than gawn and foot skills worse than Gus, refuses to man up. what does he offer? number 1 for delisting 

[DeeZee 7,445]

As much as the ridiculous decisions by umpires including the 50 meter penalties which cost us goals, I though we continuously shot ourselves in the foot with rushed kicks resulting in turnovers.

Lewis and Brayshaw the main culprits.

Jetta and Omac decided to play their worst game of the year on the same day as well which didn’t help.

Im not willing to call season over just yet, but they better get it together over the next couple of weeks otherwise it will be, very quickly.

Edited July 2, 2018 by DeeZee

[DeleteUser 638]

26 minutes ago, praha said:

Pretty confident that unless we play finals and they both lift their game, both Salem and Jones will be traded at season's end. That would help us land Gaff and give us more flexibility. We had assets to trade but as is the Melbourne way we always hold onto players for far too long. Cameron Bruce should have been traded long before we let him walk to Hawthorn for nothing. Watts should have been traded after 2016 when his stocks were at their highest. Evidently, we let the likes of Dunn and Howe leave because we still have no idea how to nurture and develop troubled talent. They are both EXACTLY what we need defensively right now.

Goodwin has some runs on the board with Spargo, Hannan and Frisch. But he needs to make another tough decision with this list akin to his Watts decision. 

Trade jones!! Sacre Bleu!

weve now had hogan brayshaw and jones offered up (in additional to the seeming fave Tyson )

[beelzebub 23,382]

31 minutes ago, praha said:

Pretty confident that unless we play finals and they both lift their game, both Salem and Jones will be traded at season's end. That would help us land Gaff and give us more flexibility. We had assets to trade but as is the Melbourne way we always hold onto players for far too long. Cameron Bruce should have been traded long before we let him walk to Hawthorn for nothing. Watts should have been traded after 2016 when his stocks were at their highest. Evidently, we let the likes of Dunn and Howe leave because we still have no idea how to nurture and develop troubled talent. They are both EXACTLY what we need defensively right now.

Goodwin has some runs on the board with Spargo, Hannan and Frisch. But he needs to make another tough decision with this list akin to his Watts decision. 

Jones will never be traded... he's cemented to the club and one of Maccas /Mahoney s fav. Goodwin not about to trade his capt.

There are any number that might be enquired of though. 

I think those getting a DCM are more likely from the ranks who AREN'T being played.

StrangER days ahead

[Willmoy1947 4,140]

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

While our backline definitely has issues we lost this game through the middle of the ground. 

St Kilda went to school on our QB game and used run and overlap in a swarm once they gained possession.  

Until we can defend through the middle of the ground we won't get anywhere. 

But where I'm more positive than most is that aspects of our game are top notch.  And they're aspects that are not easy to get right.  Contested possession, clearance work and the ability to get repeat F50 entries are areas all clubs aspire to excel in, but it's not easy to achieve. 

I do think we should be able to develop far better defensive structures through the middle of the ground. 

But we're running out of time.  Clearly, Goodwin takes the blame for this, but I trust he can turn it around.

Agree, but how do we get a less congested Forward line with all of these positives (in regard to para4)

[SFebes 4,884]

Love Oliver but he needs to stop the 1m handballs and trying to handball through the chest of our players.

[Jaded No More 68,972]

2 hours ago, Nasher said:

I gave Jaded a reply because I’m a fan, I respect her views and we’ve known each other on here for a long time. The opinion of most others is water off a duck’s back, don’t worry!

And you know that I only picked on your post, because it's you and I enjoy sticking the boot in... you're pretty ok on here most of the time  

[Jaded No More 68,972]

2 hours ago, Skuit said:

I also respect Jaded. But I have to say, there are a few armageddon posters on here that make it difficult to have a decent discussion after a loss. I was abused for bringing up a thread about not putting teams to the sword last year - because I was obviously getting ahead of myself. But you would think by the reaction to a couple of losses that everyone on here is accustomed to being in the 8 at this time  of the year.  

There is definitely no need for the world is ending, the sky is falling, we are the worst team ever, type of reactions. But I feel like some parts of Demonland have almost gone the complete opposite way. Like it is not politically correct to have a go when we perform badly, because we are doing better. Because after 12 years of being hot garbage, we are now an average team, and god we should be so happy and so greatful for that.

Criticism is taken as a lack of appreciation  or how far we have come, rather than a realistic view of how much further we still have left to go.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the only thing I care about, is premierships. I don't care for incremental improvements, sure I enjoy them and they give me hope, but to me just being in the 8 for the first 13 rounds, or just making finals, is not a win. I want us to play and win finals. I want us to be successful again. And until I see that we can be consistently successful, and perform consistently towards that ultimate goal, I will continue to be frustrated when we take backwards steps like we did yesterday. 

We all invest a lot emotionally and financially in the club, and we all have a right to vent (or not) after a loss, so long as we do it respectfully. I don't come on here looking for someone to tell me we will win a flag next year, I come here to share and listen to the opinions of others who share the same love and passion for the Dees as I do, but who might have differing opinions to me.

Bottom line is, we all know [censored] and we all can do [censored] about the performance of our club. We are just here to talk crap and make ourselves feel better. 

Edited July 2, 2018 by Jaded

[monoccular 17,570]

4 hours ago, beelzebub said:

If you understand how it is we WON'T select Jeffy ( and others) you'll go a long way to getting at the heart of the matter.

This game ( as have others ) was lost before it started.

Its not like we have a rubbish list. We don't. Theres quite enough talent , raw and experienced, to make more than a fist of any game against anyone.

So why don't we ?  Well...the best of ingredients will still result in slop if you don't have a good recipe...or decent cook......and if you have neither....?? 

Is it a coincidence that since the seasons mid point we've fallen away ? In a sense it is because its given every other club a good opportunity to see our one dimensional approach and they're all now applying their own form of remedy.

Many here expressed concern prior to the game about our structures, about how easy it's becoming to stifle our scoring....and how easily you can counter against our 'defence'.... again all before the bounce. It was like we wrote a script and the game emulated it

Our fwd 50 is a mess.....by design ...not the players so much ( though a few dont help things much )

Our back 50 is quite often non existent...as its all up the ground !!

Our middle is like a engine roaring away with a stuffed transmission...a lot going on and going nowhere.

I have to say it again. Structures, game plan, roles, instructions....this is all the Coachs' doing.

 

Goodwin often talks about structures but I don’t think that many supporters see much structure at all

2 hours ago, timbo said:

For me the worst part when we miss finals will having a giant question mark over next year.

Currently treading water with nowt to inspire confidence for next year.

A R1 win, or QBW win/close showing or Port win might have done that. Or a Hawks win or close Tigers game.

As it stands it feels like 2019 will be more of the same

But then who knows. Maybe Goodwin has a genius plan that involves this waste of a year.

?. Yep, regardless of whether we squeeze in or not this year with yet another mid season slump (don’t blame youth and inexperience Goodwin - haven’t seen the comparators for yesterday’s but Saints are young and inexperienced too).

FAIL TO PLAN: PLAN TO FAIL

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Tyson is finished in my eyes, too slow by hand, foot and mind and turnover merchant who rarely hits the scoreboard. Not sure what he actually brings to the table these days. Depth? Maybe.

 

1 hour ago, waynewussell said:

Tyson finished?? Just turned 25... I don't think so. Playing out of position, probably... down on confidence, definitely... injured... maybe, but finished? 

ww 

How likely is he at 25 to suddenly develop speed and disposal efficiency? Serious answer please.  Has anyone ever done this? If so, name names. 

[chook fowler 19,519]

2 hours ago, Mazer Rackham said:

On D-land always
MFCSS will win
Rage will trump reason

Like rain on a pond
Inner calm will be broken
Those weak f***in c****!!!!!

I agree it is Trumps fault - Russians have infiltrated the Club.

[Soidee 1,496]

I am starting to get annoyed at Goodwin pressers.  He rolls out the same PC garbage every week.  Show something Goody, some straight talking would be better than same old lines. 

[What 18,810]

1 hour ago, waynewussell said:

Tyson finished?? Just turned 25... I don't think so. Playing out of position, probably... down on confidence, definitely... injured... maybe, but finished? 

Maybe not finished, but what does he do well? What are his strengths? 

 He can only play one role, as an inside mid,  but he doesn't excel at it.  He can find the footy but he isnt damaging. Far from it.  His disposal is poor, he is slow and gets caught constantly. 

Theres no place for him in the Melbourne side, but someone like Carlton could do with him as theyre desperate for big bodied mids in that age bracket.

[SFebes 4,884]

[Wiseblood 24,637]

5 minutes ago, Petraccattack said:

Maybe not finished, but what does he do well? What are his strengths? 

 He can only play one role, as an inside mid,  but he doesn't excel at it.  He can find the footy but he isnt damaging. Far from it.  His disposal is poor, he is slow and gets caught constantly. 

Theres no place for him in the Melbourne side, but someone like Carlton could do with him as theyre desperate for big bodied mids in that age bracket.

The modern game has seemingly passed him by.  A decade ago he could have been a star.  Now he is a few steps too slow, isn't a reliable kick and doesn't do a whole lot round the ball (tackles, defensive work).  Could they turn him into a tagger?  Could we give him that role instead of giving it to someone like Viney?  Maybe the responsibility could help him find more consistency?  Either way he needs to improve, otherwise he'll be out of a job.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

13 minutes ago, Soidee said:

I am starting to get annoyed at Goodwin pressers.  He rolls out the same PC garbage every week.  Show something Goody, some straight talking would be better than same old lines. 

I actually thought he showed his disappointment with the effort this week.  You could see it written all over his face.

Apart from that, his job is to be measured outwardly in these situations.  There is no point going off your nut and having the media breathing down your neck.  It's better to do the hard stuff behind closed doors rather than in front of a microphone.

[DubDee 26,114]

I was drinking at the game but.... I counted 6 goals that came driect from freekicks to saints.  three 50m penalties that would usually not be called.  and 3 free kicks including that blatent dive by Billings which if course won't get cited.  can anyone confirm?

this is not including the number missed frees to us in our fwd half.  even how bad we played, we would have won easily if the umps were fair and unbiased.  I'm not usually one to complain about the umps but I couldnt help myself this week

[DeleteUser 638]

3 minutes ago, DubDee said:

I was drinking at the game but.... I counted 6 goals that came driect from freekicks to saints.  three 50m penalties that would usually not be called.  and 3 free kicks including that blatent dive by Billings which if course won't get cited.  can anyone confirm?

this is not including the number missed frees to us in our fwd half.  even how bad we played, we would have won easily if the umps were fair and unbiased.  I'm not usually one to complain about the umps but I couldnt help myself this week

The Great Mulleted One Frawley has called it out.

The media are onto it

http://www.espn.com.au/afl/story/_/id/23932218/afl-round-15-heroes-villains-young-dogs-show-bite-melbourne-mental-minnows

[DubDee 26,114]

Gee I was disapointed in Viney in the first half. I hold him in the highest of regard and I know he was tagging but imo he needs to mature and realise how the game is going.  Have the power to make changes during the game or challenge Goody prior to the game.  He should not be tagging, he is our most influential player and almost won us the game in the last quarter.

how many touched in the first Quater, 2?