The Need for Outside Midfielders

[dimmy 1,307]

" ..we continually get sucked into the contest which allows an easy outlet for our opponents.

Oliver lays a tackle, Viney wants in on the act...the EFC player scrubs a hb over to Viney's player 20 metres in the clear and off they run."

This Scenario happened too often last night and was really obvious. This is the way we were playing 4 years ago and i thought we had moved on from that.

[sisso 2,580]

I reckon it’s less about outside mids and more about the entire side is playing like crap...getting beaten in contested ball by smaller and lighter opposition players then not bothering to defensively run hard are just two of the main issues

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

2 hours ago, Demons11 said:

I think our issue is nothing to do with outside speed.  Our current mids have been incredibly lazy and are not working back into defence. 

 

2 hours ago, Elegt said:

Is it laziness or the fact they simply don't have the tanks to keep up?

Mid field needs a little extra speed also.  Once they lose touch of their opponent and the ball is not in hand we are toast against any inside mids with a bit of intial toe/speed.

We have 2 way runners, they are just incapable of any burst speed to catch or run down their opponent once we lose it or guilty of too many getting sucked in to the contest and allowing their direct opponent to sit out and wait for the easy receive and they're off to the races under no pressure!  Any opponent is going to look speedy when you overdo the latter.

2 hours ago, jnrmac said:

We lost contested ball 3 times I believe for 2018.

We have lost it 3 times already in 2019; 5 if you count JLT.

No point in having fleet footed wingers if you don't win the ball.

We drew Contested last night and only a couple down vs Port.  We did lose considerably vs the Cats by 19.

So im not sure we are that far back on contested overall other than the Cats.

A more robust public stat as to how your "inside" mid field is travelling IMHO is clearances.

We beat Port here by 3 so pretty much a neutral outcome.

We won it convincingly against the Cats by 10 (which would make sense as the experts keep telling us the Cats are happy to give up the middle a little and back their ability to rebound off HB).  Most scribes say our inside mids dominated theirs on the day.

We drew vs Essendrug last night for a neutral outcome.  Game arguably lost mostly by poor play down back and possibly the inability of our inside mids to get back quickly and fill spaces/assist.  Two way / Tank issue?

The difference between this year (so far) and 2018 is when we won clearances convincingly we were winning most matches.

In the same game against the Bombers last year, we won the clearance count by 10 and the match by 6 goals.

We then got a run on and smashed most teams thereafter winning both contested and clearances substantially.

Then we arrive at the big match against another in form team, the Pies in Rnd 12, and lose the clearances badly (-19) while winning contested by 7.

To summarise we had the same clearance count last night which means our inside fellas played their part at getting the ball out.  But so did the Bombers insiders.  So it's what we (and they) did with it after that on the outside IMO that was the difference.

[DV8 2,271]

4 hours ago, sisso said:

I reckon it’s less about outside mids and more about the entire side is playing like crap...getting beaten in contested ball by smaller and lighter opposition players then not bothering to defensively run hard are just two of the main issues

Too many pieces of Our puzzle are out of sorts, this brings the whole puzzle down into a mashup.

 

Everyone started to believe too Hard...  And believed the noise.  Even May I suspect.

Mentally we are under-prepared, and physically off.

[Lucifers Hero 39,735]

I was a bit surprised we took Lockhart with our last pick.  It was a golden opportunity to recruit someone with speed, especially as there had been a few practice games to test our game plan and watch others' with the new rules in play.  That is not a knock on Lockhart, he will probably be a good player but speed doesn't seem to be his strength. 

I can only conclude the coaches/recruiters think we don't need speed or that someone is already on our list.  If the former I'm worried.  If the latter I would love to see him play.  Gift him games if necessary.

But with speed the person needs to have very good disposal skills.  You can tell by my avatar I'm a huge Hunt fan but I'm not sure he is the answer.  He has the speed but hasn't developed the composure to complement it.  

[spirit of norm smith 16,438]

Mitch O’Neill. The kid will be a star. 

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,817]

Anyone know what happened to Viney’s burst out of the packs which has been his trade mark over the years?

Edited April 9, 2019 by Bring-Back-Powell

[dazzledavey36 54,851]

1 hour ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Anyone know what happened to Viney’s burst out of the packs which has been his trade mark over the years?

He's been 'Trengoved'

[Lord Travis 10,727]

1 hour ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Anyone know what happened to Viney’s burst out of the packs which has been his trade mark over the years?

3 years of ongoing foot injuries and multiple foot surgeries have robbed him of any pace and power. He refused to even have a set shot for goal from 40 out last week as he knew he couldn’t kick the journey. Jack could’ve banged it from 50 on the run a few years ago. 

As said above, he’s been Trengove’d. I don’t think he’ll ever recover those attributes, and as a result we’ve likely seen his best footy already ?

Edited April 9, 2019 by Lord Travis

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

3 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Anyone know what happened to Viney’s burst out of the packs which has been his trade mark over the years?

I would think a full pre-season without any foot interruption issues will bring that power back again BBP.  We might see it in patches this year but wouldn't be expecting it regular given the interruptions.

Personally i think this year is a bit of a write off.  For reasons already mentioned umpteen times.

I reckon we just have to get more games into those we think might continue on the list in 2020.  Get those we know are required who aren't fit back on the park (obviously) and into the system firing a little again, learning whatever system it is Goody is teaching and finding some confidence in their own game, the game style and slowly finding the trust in one another again.  Severely lacking especially down back at the moment.

Get May back in ASAP and hopefully cement his spot, learning to gel with Lever and the other regular backs we settle on.  Omac and Frost need to go back to Casey once these 2 are both back.  Frost to learn to make better decisions on the run and clean up his disposal to an acceptable level before returning.  I would put Hunt in that category also if he can't improve his disposal by foot substantially in the next month or so (provided we have a replacement to cover).

You can't win footy matches without a solid defence and at the moment this is our weakest point, closely followed by the forward line and a sever lack of speed and finishing skills on the outside.

Fritschkrieg/Salem & Stretch/Harmes off both wings is a non negotiable at this point.  If we are playing Jones or anyone without a bit of toe out there from here you have to really question the judgement of our coaching panel.

There's not a huge amount we can do up forward other than bringing Jeffy/Spargo back, waiting for T-mac to get over his injury and find form and hoping that the likes of Lockhart (Chandler at some point?) find their way as the season goes.

Then there's the Jones conundrum.  Personally i think we can still play him through there, just in very short stints or more of a run with role on the right match.  Alternating between these roles and resting in the forward pocket/bench.  Avoid putting Jones AND Viney into the middle at the same time and we'll be ok IMO.

At the end of the year we must throw everything at a genuine KPF and at least 2 serious speedsters on the outside who are able.to work their way through traffic, make good decisions coming inside 50  and at AFL level with their foot skills.

Ideally we also need a genuine small crumber with bjrst speed who has the hunger to run both ways (defend) and knows where the goals are.

From there Goody needs to take us to another level so we are capable of playing man on man and up in the face of opponents with a full ground  style  press similar to what  we saw from the Eagles against the Pies with intense pressure, not just zoning.

Then there's the other side.  Being able to maintain possession and slowing the game down, switching multiple times and looking for that eventual free player to start off the next link up play inside 50 on the overlap etc.  At the moment we are all straight ahead attack attack like a bull at a gate (whose brain has left him).  Bombing also results at the end of that attack on most occasions.  If our disposal skills by foot were generally better across the park this constant attack style might be more damaging (maybe we were more accurate last year?)  But at this point our.disposal and decision making is so horrid vs last year, bull at a gate is nowhere near as effective, especially with a leaky backline on the sling shot once we turn it over or the Opp cleans up in our very ordinary forward line.

Edited April 9, 2019 by Rusty Nails

[Elegt 872]

Carbon copy of last year's St Kilda game when I started this thread. [censored] do something Goodwin. Put stretch Baker and garlett in

 Inject some pace

Change things around

Sick of this

[monoccular 17,418]

What does it actually matter?

Without a forward and a defensive game plan we could have the Brisbane 2001-5 team list and we would get nowhere 

Is the coaching staff as a whole going to pull their collective fingers out and plan something?

[DV8 2,271]

6 minutes ago, monoccular said:

What does it actually matter?

Without a forward and a defensive game plan we could have the Brisbane 2001-5 team list and we would get nowhere 

Is the coaching staff as a whole going to pull their collective fingers out and plan something?

Yep, change of Plans... unless we're tanking, List Managing ?

 

Maybe we should threaten the AFL,  that we'll start tanking again, and hold our breath...  unless we get the Best Outside midfielder,  from GWS ?

[Optimus D 283]

On 7/1/2018 at 11:12 PM, DV8 said:

No we don't.

We lack running mids who go. we lack pace and foot skills.

 

But we do not want or need pure outsiders.  see garlett.

Couldn’t agree more DV8, and we are going to get more of these poor performances, it’s going to be a tough year. Had a purple patch last year and now we have been figured out. Just have not got the skills speed and class in the side.

[Elegt 872]

St Kilda recruit quick players like Kent Sinclair and Paton for nothing and we persist with slow mids

[Elegt 872]

Recurring theme, got shown up today with slow lazy mids. Taylor has rocks in his head- persisting on recruiting slow inside mids

[Elegt 872]

Smashed on the outside again today thanks to a midfield consisting of Dunkley macrae and bontempelli

[Elegt 872]

Clear deficiency that has been obvious for years yet Goodwin and Taylor continue to recruit slow inside mids that can't kick. When will they wake up and realise we need pace and skills?!

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

9 minutes ago, Elegt said:

Clear deficiency that has been obvious for years yet Goodwin and Taylor continue to recruit slow inside mids that can't kick. When will they wake up and realise we need pace and skills?!

I agree that it's been obvious for a few seasons now. There's clearly an identifiable trend to the way we lose games and with the number of injuries we've had this year, we've spiralled into a [censored] heap. 

Whilst the perennial positive pollies may call it out as hindsight, I've always been concerned with Goodwin's head strong approach to one way of playing. Even last year during the season proper, all of the warning signs and trends were there in the games we lost. Especially the ones we badly lost. Collingwood, Hawthorn, West Coast, St Kilda etc. 

He didn't change a thing coming into this year and as far as recruiting and trading go, he put all eggs in one basket. 

For seasons now, I've questioned why contested heavy and inside type players have been played in positions they're not suited too. From Tyson and Jones on a wing, ANB playing at half forward too often to recruiting Sparrow as our first round selection in the draft last year. 

Injuries aside, our list profile has come back to bite us in a big way. The 666 rule change has added to that. 

Posters may brush it off and think that we'll be fine next year like they always do. But the reality is that we've been a laughing stock for the best part of a decade and as a club, we simply cannot afford to have a seasons like we have this year for a long time if we have any desire to get close to the big boys of the comp. 

This is part of why I am so harsh when evaluating our situation, list, players and posters' views. Because I care too much about real possibility that the gal between us and the power house Victorian clubs will just keep growing. 

I know people who have given up as supporters and no longer follow the club. The happy-go-luckies may laugh at that, but if you look at our supporter base, demographic and the very real fact that we have lost a generation of supporters, it's not so funny. Which makes having years like this absolutely unacceptable. 

Goodwin has been given a lifeline and the club better address our list in an extremely aggressive but calculated way. 

 

[—coach— 3,496]

Looks like we’ve got us an outside mid:

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2019/08/27/report-victorian-club-wins-race-for-in-demand-docker

 

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/fremantle-midfielder-ed-langdon-settles-on-melbourne-as-his-club-of-choice-ahead-of-trade-move/news-story/d82f71166d16bbf7f025104ba6d7a9b4

Edited August 27, 2019 by —coach—

[DeeSpencer 25,674]

1 hour ago, Elegt said:

Clear deficiency that has been obvious for years yet Goodwin and Taylor continue to recruit slow inside mids that can't kick. When will they wake up and realise we need pace and skills?!

Maybe they woke up in 2016?

2016: Hannan and Dion Johnstone
2017: Spargo - half forward, Fritsch - forward/wing, Baker -wing
2018: Trades for KK. Sparrow - not slow, Jordon and a couple of small forwards Bedford, Chandler. Even Nietschke is meant to be an outside mid. Plus C Wagner and Lockhart

Inside mids and key forwards were the priority when the rebuild started. Late round selections were used on guys like Hunt, JKH and Stretch, trading for Bugg, trading for Garlett etc.

Then we've had to spend big on getting tall defenders in. As bad as our wings aren't it doesn't mean our non May defenders are any good!

If Vanders and KK played 22 games to the max of their ability or if we had the luxury of using Fritsch on the wing alongside one of them full time we'd probably not have an outside midfield issue.

I look at Brisbane with Robinson and McCluggage,  the Cats using Selwood on one wing and Duncan or Jordan Clark on the other, the Tigers having Caddy on a wing the last couple of weeks with a quick runner on the other and I really think the Vanders/KK partnership made a lot of sense. Unfortunately both aren't going well and Baker hasn't got the fitness, Stretch hasn't come on - maybe because he was dropped too much at a crucial time in his career or maybe due to injuries. 

There might've been a philosophical choice to go for strong bid bodies over skill and run and there's been some poor drafting but we've also just had a lot of rebuilding to do and bad luck when it came to fixing a particular position.

 

 

 

[Adam The God 30,218]

4 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

I agree that it's been obvious for a few seasons now. There's clearly an identifiable trend to the way we lose games and with the number of injuries we've had this year, we've spiralled into a [censored] heap. 

Whilst the perennial positive pollies may call it out as hindsight, I've always been concerned with Goodwin's head strong approach to one way of playing. Even last year during the season proper, all of the warning signs and trends were there in the games we lost. Especially the ones we badly lost. Collingwood, Hawthorn, West Coast, St Kilda etc. 

He didn't change a thing coming into this year and as far as recruiting and trading go, he put all eggs in one basket. 

For seasons now, I've questioned why contested heavy and inside type players have been played in positions they're not suited too. From Tyson and Jones on a wing, ANB playing at half forward too often to recruiting Sparrow as our first round selection in the draft last year. 

Injuries aside, our list profile has come back to bite us in a big way. The 666 rule change has added to that. 

Posters may brush it off and think that we'll be fine next year like they always do. But the reality is that we've been a laughing stock for the best part of a decade and as a club, we simply cannot afford to have a seasons like we have this year for a long time if we have any desire to get close to the big boys of the comp. 

This is part of why I am so harsh when evaluating our situation, list, players and posters' views. Because I care too much about real possibility that the gal between us and the power house Victorian clubs will just keep growing. 

I know people who have given up as supporters and no longer follow the club. The happy-go-luckies may laugh at that, but if you look at our supporter base, demographic and the very real fact that we have lost a generation of supporters, it's not so funny. Which makes having years like this absolutely unacceptable. 

Goodwin has been given a lifeline and the club better address our list in an extremely aggressive but calculated way. 

 

Mate, you thought it was all rosey in the JLT until a few of us told you otherwise.

Revisionism it is coming from you, given your chat at the top of the year.

[Elegt 872]

3 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Maybe they woke up in 2016?

2016: Hannan and Dion Johnstone
2017: Spargo - half forward, Fritsch - forward/wing, Baker -wing
2018: Trades for KK. Sparrow - not slow, Jordon and a couple of small forwards Bedford, Chandler. Even Nietschke is meant to be an outside mid. Plus C Wagner and Lockhart

Inside mids and key forwards were the priority when the rebuild started. Late round selections were used on guys like Hunt, JKH and Stretch, trading for Bugg, trading for Garlett etc.

Then we've had to spend big on getting tall defenders in. As bad as our wings aren't it doesn't mean our non May defenders are any good!

If Vanders and KK played 22 games to the max of their ability or if we had the luxury of using Fritsch on the wing alongside one of them full time we'd probably not have an outside midfield issue.

I look at Brisbane with Robinson and McCluggage,  the Cats using Selwood on one wing and Duncan or Jordan Clark on the other, the Tigers having Caddy on a wing the last couple of weeks with a quick runner on the other and I really think the Vanders/KK partnership made a lot of sense. Unfortunately both aren't going well and Baker hasn't got the fitness, Stretch hasn't come on - maybe because he was dropped too much at a crucial time in his career or maybe due to injuries. 

There might've been a philosophical choice to go for strong bid bodies over skill and run and there's been some poor drafting but we've also just had a lot of rebuilding to do and bad luck when it came to fixing a particular position.

 

 

 

Hannam-outrun by lynden Dunn

Johnstone-extremely poor selection couldn't find the pill

Spargo-slow and can't kick far enough 

Fritsch-no tank

Baker- no tank

KK -clearly was injury prone prior to recruitment

Sparrow-slow inside mid 

C wagner-slow 

[deanox 9,912]

4 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

....

Whilst the perennial positive pollies may call it out as hindsight, I've always been concerned with Goodwin's head strong approach to one way of playing. 

...

He didn't change a thing coming into this year and as far as recruiting and trading go, he put all eggs in one basket. 

...

For seasons now, I've questioned why contested heavy and inside type players have been played in positions they're not suited too. From Tyson and Jones on a wing, ANB playing at half forward too often to recruiting Sparrow as our first round selection in the draft last year. 

...

Injuries aside, our list profile has come back to bite us in a big way. The 666 rule change has added to that. 

... 

 

So which is it? Is Goodwin too head strong? Or did he spend big because he recognized that we needed to add a high quality lock down defender to the list?

We had been building a list that was based on winning the inside contests by brute force and zoning in defense. 666 changed all of that and we clearly tried to make changes by bringing in May and KK. But we got smashed by injuries while trying to change, so we don't know if it works. We'll now try again with Langdon.

To me that demonstrates how we are trying to modify and adapt.

 

 

Also the reason we've persisted sorry players out of position is really clear. 

1. When you are terrible, outside uncontested players look terrible, so you focus on improving ball winning ability.  We did this under Roos.

2. While building ball winning ability we invested in development of talls, and zone/rebounders.

3. We had no outside players so had to keep playing people out of position (as you mention)

4. We tried drafting outside players but they haven't come off yet, as per DeeSpencer, so we keep trying. 

[Redleg 40,894]

Now that we look like getting Ed Langdon, I'd get into his brother.

Collingwood will need to clear the decks to keep some of their players like Elliot and more importantly Grundy.

They would not want to lose him but may be prepared to do a deal for salary cap room.

We have had a good relationship with them recently, clearing decent players to them and accepting back their trash in return.