Post Match Discussion - Round 12

[Soidee 1,496]

Chunk and Viney should not be in the middle at same time.  Brayshaw is Chunks replacement, chunk needs a rest.

[John Crow Batty 8,863]

I hope Viney gets back to his best after the bye. Needs more games. Tyson would have been better value in the past couple of weeks.

Edited June 11, 2018 by america de cali

[Dr. Gonzo 24,219]

2 hours ago, Garbo said:

Most disappointing thing was today felt like déjà vu of round 23 last year, it’s like we learnt nothing since then. We had no answer to there run and spread last time or this time. You don’t want to throw the baby out with the bath water as we are probably better than 12 other teams but their is some questions that need answering if this year is to be anymore the a foray into the 8

We don't handle being the "hunted" well. When we attack in numbers and win the contests through pressure and workrate we look a million bucks. But when the opposition pressures us, sits off the pack and tackles/harasses us around the contest we don't know how to match their pressure and get the game back on our terms. We seemed to do it for a quarter against Richmond (in the 3rd) but other than that we tend to really struggle with wresting back control and putting the pressure back on the opposition.

[picket fence 17,169]

1 hour ago, Jaded said:

Where do we find pace though?

Our midfield is good but very one dimensional. Good fast hands. Can get a clearance. Can gut run. Slow as the day is long. 

Every time we play teams who pressure us and have good outside pace (Richmond, Hawks), we get pantsed. 

Ill give you the answer

PROBLEM NO 1 

Viney is so one dimensional and it was on display today, His disposal is just, Pace average, he doesn't have any class but his one redeeming feature is his attack on the ball ! But in this day and Age he is a throwback mid with not many strings to the bow!

PROBLEM NO 2 

It pains me to say this but As much as I love Chunky Jones he is only a better mans Viney. What to do next is Simon Goodwins problem!

PROBLEM 3 

An aging Bernie Vince and to a far less degree Jordan Lewis! We can only keep one next year and even then might not neccesarily play Lewis in every game. Bernie has been great but I think its time!

PROBLEM 4 

NO OUTSIDE CLASSY RUN

And this is perhaps the greatest need., We need to throw truckloads of money and anything else at Andrew Gaff

PROBLEM 5 

We need another gorilla up back ( Mason Cox killed us today) and power forwards like Darling et al will always find us easy pickings

PROBLEM 6 

Perenially we have too many LAZY Drink their own bathwater players Petracca needs a game in the resssies and show some hunger!

From today it is clear to me 

Weideman, Jeffy and Hunt need to play the rest of the year to remedy some of these problems! Frost should be considered from time to time as should Tyson!

Pedo Nup, Spargo Not yet, Bailey Fritsch did little today, a few others as well as they have been playing against inferior opposition are on notice!

A few other things Lever's loss is not easily covered and Lynden Dunn and Jeremy Howe should never have been let go!

 

 

[DemonWA 3,934]

Much needed reality check for the lads. Its a long season and were not top 4 yet

[Lord Ivanhoe 311]

3 hours ago, PJ_12345 said:

First post in a couple of years... but hey, today's game will do that to you!

Couple of comments:

1. Too many players sucked into the contest. Doesnt take 3 blokes to tackle. Allowed Collingwood to overlap perfectly.

2. Lost everywhere. Mid, forward and back.

3. DeGoey unmanned for 3/4 hurts. Should have been shut down.

4. Pedo should have gone to Cox, and told to play in front. 

5. Felt like we had the wrong team. Too tall forward, so small down back, not enough support in the ruck.

Bye will do them well. Need to step it up from here on.

Agree, but better to learn now than in the finals.

Although the backline needs to settle we need to bring in a week by week 'horses for courses' defender.

Pedersen could play back and give us versatility but I am sure Petty could have done something down back today. 

6 good wins but also time for other teams to work us out (Bulldogs & Tigers so lucky to have timed their runs at finals time).

Against these faster teams with better outside run do we include an extra Mid(Tyson) for small forward(Hannan)?

[John Crow Batty 8,863]

14 minutes ago, DemonWA said:

Much needed reality check for the lads. Its a long season and were not top 4 yet

The jury is still out if we are even a top 8 side. We were in a similar position last season just after the bye. At least we have the bye break to regroup and we can do without all the hype.

Edited June 11, 2018 by america de cali

[Brisbanedemonfan 26]

I don't think we should have played 3 tall forwards with Pedersen, 2 talls 4 small forwards worked well for us the past 6 weeks. 

As a utility, could Pedersen be reinvented as a defender? He can take a strong mark and has the size to outwork opposition defenders, so why not make the opposite switch of TMac?  

Melksham didn't look his best - injury from last week niggling him? 

Lewis had no run and didn't lay a single tackle.

Oscars game today reminded me of the Oscar of previous years. 

As we all know we got smashed in the middle. Whenever Gawn tapped the ball down, we'd pick it up only to be tackled, or to handball it out to a waiting Collingwood player. We needed to spread more and Gawn needed to thump the ball out of the middle more as I've seen him do before - the straight down the throat tap worked to Collingwoods advantage almost every time.  

Thing that killed us most was speed. We'd get the ball, shank a kick, and it would be inside 50 before you could blink. 

I think OMac, Lewis, Melksham dropped, with Peders for Oscar, Hunt for Lewis and Garlett for Melksham. Room should be made for Tyson to come back into the side, maybe Petracca? 

If a Pedersen move to defence won't work maybe blooding Petty instead. 

[leucopogon 1,519]

10 minutes ago, Lord Ivanhoe said:

Agree, but better to learn now than in the finals.

Although the backline needs to settle we need to bring in a week by week 'horses for courses' defender.

Pedersen could play back and give us versatility but I am sure Petty could have done something down back today. 

6 good wins but also time for other teams to work us out (Bulldogs & Tigers so lucky to have timed their runs at finals time).

Against these faster teams with better outside run do we include an extra Mid(Tyson) for small forward(Hannan)?

Hunt in for the rest of the year. 

[monoccular 17,430]

 

3 hours ago, davo said:

Collingwood can’t play any better than what they did today, everything went their way, the umpires, the bounce of the ball, we can improve, we won 6 in a row, we’ll come back, but reality is we are still a year away from being real dynamite 

Agree with that - nothing much went right for us (other than Tommy's incredible contested marking, the best I can recall from a MFC player ever, Ox included).

The bounce, even the mis kicks just went Collingwood's way.

But we certainly looked slow of foot, at least compared with the Pies mids.  No doubt will be looked at in trade and draft period, but not so much we can do right now.   Need to be a lot smarter.

Need to look at it closely, learn, and move onwards. 

2 hours ago, —coach— said:

Most of what I want to say has already been said so won’t repeat it:

- someone said it earlier in the thread that pedo looked to spoil/unbalance our forward line with Hogan being the one most affected (which I totally agree with) Last year I am not ashamed to admit I wanted him in the team badly early on when we had a few injuries and still reckon we would have won one more game last year had he been brought in earlier. Watching today, he should never play for us again unless In times of SERIOUS injury need. He gave nothing and was a serious liability costing us many a turnover.

- having said that when he went into the ruck I would say we improved our clearance rate. Not because he won the tap, but because we knew he would loose it. It seems to me we are very good at sharking it when we know with 100% certainly that we will not win the tap. When it’s a 50/50 you are preparing for two possible outcomes rather than one. Last year QB when Gawn was absent, we lost the hit outs 65/14 but equaled the clearances 35 apiece. Round 23 we won the hit outs with Gawn playing (24/37)but lost the clearances (34/31). This year lost the tap (35/47) and got beat up on clearances (26/45). Remember we also had an equal record of wins versus losses when Gawn was and wasn’t playing last year, as such I would like to see us have the confidence to leave Gawn out of the ruck for longer periods of time occasionally at strategic times like we could have done today after half time rather than just assume we are better with him there always.

others may disagree but just my 2 cents after a loss which looked a lot like round 23 last year

Converting hit outs to clearances is our big challenge - needs lots of study and work.

1 hour ago, deanox said:

Agree 100%. You could see the frustration in Max as well. 

A number of times Grundy initiated holding of Max's jumper but the holding free would go against Max. No idea why. 

It was appalling to see Max's jumper pulled, and arms wrapped around him and either no free or even worse him penalised.  

The club MUST demand clarification from the umpiring department.  It will kill Max's confidence if unanswered.

[Beetle 4,660]

1 minute ago, leucopogon said:

Hunt in for the rest of the year. 

Hunt was on crutches at the G today.

[At Least I Saw a Flag 5,248]

20 minutes ago, picket fence said:

Ill give you the answer

PROBLEM NO 1 

Viney is so one dimensional and it was on display today, His disposal is just, Pace average, he doesn't have any class but his one redeeming feature is his attack on the ball ! But in this day and Age he is a throwback mid with not many strings to the bow!

PROBLEM NO 2 

It pains me to say this but As much as I love Chunky Jones he is only a better mans Viney. What to do next is Simon Goodwins problem!

PROBLEM 3 

An aging Bernie Vince and to a far less degree Jordan Lewis! We can only keep one next year and even then might not neccesarily play Lewis in every game. Bernie has been great but I think its time!

PROBLEM 4 

NO OUTSIDE CLASSY RUN

And this is perhaps the greatest need., We need to throw truckloads of money and anything else at Andrew Gaff

PROBLEM 5 

We need another gorilla up back ( Mason Cox killed us today) and power forwards like Darling et al will always find us easy pickings

PROBLEM 6 

Perenially we have too many LAZY Drink their own bathwater players Petracca needs a game in the resssies and show some hunger!

From today it is clear to me 

Weideman, Jeffy and Hunt need to play the rest of the year to remedy some of these problems! Frost should be considered from time to time as should Tyson!

Pedo Nup, Spargo Not yet, Bailey Fritsch did little today, a few others as well as they have been playing against inferior opposition are on notice!

A few other things Lever's loss is not easily covered and Lynden Dunn and Jeremy Howe should never have been let go!

 

 

Wow, hard to argue with any of those points ...

[leucopogon 1,519]

Bad timing! I'd bring in Jeffy then, try him out in the midfield at times. Roosy used to do it.

[Vagg 2,439]

I watched the game on TV.  Could have sworn they just threw on a replay of the Rd 23 game from last year!!

There are losses.  And there there are losses against THAT mob!!

GUTTED!!!!

[D4Life 2,475]

TMac, Cleary & Jetta were ok, rest of team were beaten. 

M Cox probably won’t ever kick 5 again.

crap day, learn some lessons move on.

The sky isn’t falling!

I’m out of the country in the morning and I’m sure by the time I get back, the earth will be flat again, and Dees back on track.

Today just a shocker, forget and reset!!

[At the break of Gawn 4,460]

An important lesson; Never get too excited about this football club, it'll end in disappointment (for now anyway).

In all seriousness though, I don't know why people are suggesting Tyson - he's another inside mid who's also one paced. 

As many of the other posters have noted, the game was lost due to Collingwood's excellent balance at the clearances with the right number of players in the contest and outside the contest. If we won it, their outside players would pressure us quickly and we would end up coughing it up. If they won it, their outside players would run and spread to get the disposal and kick it to their forwards without pressure on the kicker. 

The other reasons:

1) Cox had his best game ever

2) The field kicking and disposal was basically flawless on the day. We kicked all our 2nd qtr goals from their turn overs, and they barely made a mistake in the second half.

Pederson started well with some contested marks on the wing, but I found he got in the way of Hogan inside 50 and didn't bring it to ground well enough. Also, for what it's worth, Hogan's contested marking work has been unbelievable lately, rarely had a genuine one-on-one against Dunn I felt.

I'm not completely sold on J Smith but I thought he was pretty solid today, having said that, the pace and height of Frost would be handy and Goody has to make his mind up because we don't have time to keep getting our defensive 6 to gel.

Hunt and Garlett both need to come in for pace. Garlett rotated through the midfield at times last year and had great effect. 

 

[rjay 24,928]

59 minutes ago, DeeZee said:

If Tom Lynch goes to the pies they will be a serious contender..

They already are...

[Pennant St Dee 13,173]

A few things from today 

I said in the lead up our strength at the contest was a strength of theirs and their run and spread worried me. My fears were proven right. 

The defence battled hard but their delivery inside 50 due to their outside run killed us

We have 10 to go and need to learn from it. Hoges had a dirty day and wasn't Robinson Crusoe

Pedersen vs Weideman argument put to bed

Brayshaw doesn't go to Phillips next time. Viney, Harmes or Jones get that job

A bit more composure required under hot pressure and less handball in close

Clearances to be addressed over the break with Wines, SPP, Boak and Rockliffe coming up

And for the love of god how many of you can not figure out Olisik is a troll, keeps throwing bait out and gullible Deelanders keep hooking on

 

[Docs Demons 1,791]

Not the end of the world however we have lost badly to Hawks, Tigers and now Magpies with a close loss to Cats. This is my concern that we are unable to match the top sides when they put the pressure on. We MUST improve here or no use being in finals as we will be out in one game.

Lot to think about over next 2 week before Port game. Again we lack leadership when we are in trouble. Have said this many times but when the going gets tough our leaders run or plod around by themselves about 10 yards away from any opposition. I am talking mainly about Jones and Viney here.

Also in other posts I said Spargo needs a rest. It showed big time today. Other than about 10 minutes worth he just wandered around the ground doing stuff all. Back to the Magoos for him. Has got heaps of upside but needs to get the ball and at Casey he may learn a bit more.He can take the Trac with him. This bloke reminds me of Tilbrook. Big, Classy but no idea and gets ahead of himself.Think he thinks he is better than what he really is. Stint at Casey will remind him what footy is all about. Will forgive Brayshaw, Hogan and others that have had it easy last few weeks for this game but they also need to lift when going gets a bit hard. Maybe a bit of a soft under belly here?

Again not end of world but if we do not learn from these bad defeats against the tops sides and finally realise you need to work both ways then we are just making up the numbers.

Time for the boys to stand up on a big stage on a Friday night in Adelaide. Can't wait to see the response.

[Adam The God 30,259]

29 minutes ago, Pennant St Dee said:

A few things from today 

I said in the lead up our strength at the contest was a strength of theirs and their run and spread worried me. My fears were proven right. 

The defence battled hard but their delivery inside 50 due to their outside run killed us

We have 10 to go and need to learn from it. Hoges had a dirty day and wasn't Robinson Crusoe

Pedersen vs Weideman argument put to bed

Brayshaw doesn't go to Phillips next time. Viney, Harmes or Jones get that job

A bit more composure required under hot pressure and less handball in close

Clearances to be addressed over the break with Wines, SPP, Boak and Rockliffe coming up

And for the love of god how many of you can not figure out Olisik is a troll, keeps throwing bait out and gullible Deelanders keep hooking on

 

Yep, good call, mate. I'll cop to that. I disagreed. Humble pie unfortunately devoured.

I hate the idea of Collingwood improving and was loving how meh they've been since Malthouse, but they seemed to have turned a corner. I'm not convinced they can sustain it and I'd also like to see us bring our A game against them before taking too much from today's result, but they're better than I gave them credit for.

On your Phillips call, I reckon that's Harmes' job or even ANB's next time, although Harmes seemed to be minding (or trying to) the +1 off the back of the stoppage.

But I reckon Gus, Viney and even Jones are too good at winning the ball to sacrifice them in order to stop a runner.

Edited June 11, 2018 by A F

[Pennant St Dee 13,173]

1 minute ago, A F said:

Yep, good call, mate. I'll cop to that. I disagreed. Humble pie unfortunately devoured. I hate the idea of Collingwood improving and was loving our meh they've been since Malthouse, but they seemed to have turned a corner. I'm not convinced they can sustain it and I'd also like to see us bring our A game against them before taking too much from today's result.

On your Phillips call, I reckon that's Harmes' job next time, although he seemed to be minding (or trying to) the +1 off the back of the stoppage. But I reckon Gus, Viney and even Jones are too good at winning the ball to sacrifice them in order to stop a runner.

I'm sure AF despite what those on here think the FD would have also been aware of the Pies strength and backed our boys to win the contest or break even at worst around the clearances.

Some big lessons today like the Tigers game, you adjust and improve and teams put more work into you and you need to adjust again. By the time you are a settled experienced side like the 2011-16 Hawks you have the ability to make those adjustmants during a game and trust your structure 

[RalphiusMaximus 6,053]

So, that was fun. 

I don't know what the TV showed, but at the ground it looked very much like the majority of the side just weren't putting in the effort.  We saw it time and time again, they were able to get multiple players free in wide open spaces while our midfield were clustered back where the ball used to be.  That's straight up poor work-rate.  I know we've had some road games and short breaks here and there, but there's no excuse for such a lazy performance. 

The Umpires set the tone at the opening bounce when they paid a free to Collingwood for a general stacks-on in the square.  They followed through on that promise with a 9-3 free kick count in the first quarter, including four goal assists.  It did improve slightly once the damage was done, but the Pies still got by far the best of it.  Special note to J. Smith who had his head taken off with a closthline in full view of the umpire for a call of play on and a Collingwood goal. 

Gawn was mighty today.  In the first half in particular he smashed Grundy.  Grundy managed to even up his stats by rucking against Pedo later in the game, but Gawn taught him a lesson today.  Also a victim of the umps, in particular a contest where Grundy wrapped both arms around him, bullrushed him under the ball and was rewarded with a free kick. 

TMac was likewise awesome.  I think this was his biggest bag.  One of the few who can be proud of their performance today. 

Hogan looked off when he was practicing his goal kicking before the game, and that how he played.  Still racked up some disposals up the ground, but had very little impact. 

Pedersen was a liability.  He gave us nothing in the ruck, he constantly missed targets by foot and he didn't hit the scoreboard. 

I haven't seen a worse game by Jones in a long time. 

[What 18,810]

As my disappoint subsides from that performance,     I have to marvel at the fact we let a yank kick 5 goals on us.

Thats almost as embarrassing as 186.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

2 minutes ago, Petraccattack said:

As my disappoint subsides from that performance,     I have to marvel at the fact we let a yank kick 5 goals on us.

Thats almost as embarrassing as 186.

Bigger things to talk about though, like:

How come your 'SemenDemon' moniker lasted barely an hour?  

[RalphiusMaximus 6,053]

1 minute ago, Petraccattack said:

As my disappoint subsides from that performance,     I have to marvel at the fact we let a yank kick 5 goals on us.

Thats almost as embarrassing as 186.

Cox mugged Harry Potter at some point.  He was clearly using an invisibility cloak today, given how often he popped up standing on his own right in front of the goals while his man was off chasing midfielders.